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The first casuallty of war?


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#16    Bizarro

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Posted 21 October 2002 - 02:21 PM

why Saddam Hussein?  because we annihilated his army in 1991 and he signed a cease fire on our terms.  now he chooses to defy all the same conditions that he agreed to when we stopped the slaughter.  did you ever see the video from 'the highway of death'?  we were killing his army so effectively that Bush Sr.  thought world opinion would go against us if we continued, so we stopped the death for humanity's sake.  

a lot of people here thought we should have continued to Baghdad then, but we chose peace instead.  now its time to finish what should have been accomplished in 1991.  its even more dangerous now, but no less necessary.

if there was a meteor,
adrift amongst space,
set about on a collision course
not with Earth, but my face...
i wonder if id even know,
at what time i might,
be passed off like an old style
and by the meteor be smite?

- me, 1997

#17    Kismit

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Posted 22 October 2002 - 01:05 AM

O.K. so what your saying is that he wants to finish something his Dad started  11 years ago. Forgive me if I am wrong but dosen't the Bush familly have quite an investment in the oil industry.
Just as a point of interest George Bush was discribed as a war monger by political annalysts over here during the American election campaign before any of the tragic events that took place on september 11.
  I beleive Saddam is a nutcase and possibly cappable of anything . I know a few people like that my self but I wouldn,t risk the lives of innocent people to get rid of them and starting a war is only going to stir him up .
Whats that saying about poking a rattle snake with a stick?
Tell me did you see "Independence Day " That movie stole 2 hours from my life , you know the bit at the end when every country in the world was to stupid to think for themselves and had to wait for America to tell them what to do. In reality we have allies with America but our governments are clever enough to think for themselves and I don't see to many of them jumping on the band wagon.
I can't drop this one I still smell something wrong here..


#18    Bizarro

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Posted 22 October 2002 - 02:27 AM

i understand your points, Kismit.  i even thought the ending of Independence Day was cheeseball ;)

the thing is that George Bush Sr. did not start the Gulf War, Saddam did.  there have been skirmishes since the cease fire was signed.  i don't think GW Bush is trying to finish his dad's business, but rather doing what Clinton refused to do.  Its a philosophical difference between Republicans and Democrats.  Clinton tried to avoid the situation and chose to fire cruise missiles instead.  

i like your rattlesnake reference.  what if there is a rattlesnake sitting on a path you travel everyday?  do you avoid it out of fear or do you try to get rid of it for good?  Saddam is a rattlesnake on our path.  we need oil and he is in the way of us getting it.  that doesnt mean we need Iraq's oil, but he is a threat to Kuwait and Saudi Arabia- whose oil our economy depends on.  he has weapons that allow him to blackmail the region.  weapons of mass destruction are quite a bargaining tool- especially considering his past actions.   it is in our nation's interest to see a democratic and peaceful Iraq in place of Saddam's Iraq.  

i can see the reasons you dislike my country and distrust our motives, but you can't judge a book by the cover.  its not our fault most of the world watches our movies and inhales our culture without reading the warning label.  there are idiots in Hollywood who create nonsense like that because some idiot will swallow it, but to be quite honest my wife and i laughed out loud at the assumption the world would be waiting for the americans to save them all.  i thought it was especially nice that all the pilots around the earth were sitting in chairs with no motivation until we contacted them with morse code.  they were so happy we had a plan!  of course, i never swallowed that we could give the alien mother ship a 'virus' without knowing anything about their OS.  i mean, doesnt the mother ship at least have Norton's Anti-Virus at the very least?  seems like a seriously intense investment of productivity to leave such a weakness inherent in its design.  

i don't think we really need allies to take down Saddam.  we could conquer Iraq with an iron fist and rule it from Washington if we were so inclined.  we make allies first because we want to show that we are not the thing you would accuse us of being.  as hard as it is to believe, americans value peace and well-being much more than war.

if there was a meteor,
adrift amongst space,
set about on a collision course
not with Earth, but my face...
i wonder if id even know,
at what time i might,
be passed off like an old style
and by the meteor be smite?

- me, 1997

#19    Kismit

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Posted 23 October 2002 - 08:03 AM

Dshwartz I liked the way you used that rattle snake thing .Very effective  ;D.
However I never said that I dislike America or that I don't trust the country as a whole , on the contrary ,as you pointed out earlier NewZealanders and Australian's have there rivalrys as an Australian living in Newzealand I have been personally judged many times for the action of the Australian government , it's sportspeople , and even it's entertainers . These experiences have taught me to veiw every single person as an individual.
Now back to that rattle snake...... ;)
   If there is a rattlesnake in the middle of the road you travel everyday. Kill the B**ta*d but for heavens sake don't dont wipe out half the wild life with it.
  P.S one crap movie out of Holly wood isn't a good enough reason to hold a grudge against a whole country. That  would really contradict my whole point.


#20    Blackbird

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Posted 11 September 2003 - 04:33 AM

    wonder how bizzaro feels now?


#21    Bloated Corpse

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Posted 11 September 2003 - 07:34 AM

I think that the manufacturing of WMD and the use of the WMD are two entities unto themselves. Consider this if one country were to make these WMD would they profit from using them? Not really because you would be killing off your customers and potential buyers, not in the least inviting a likely attack to get rid of them.

We come to the use of WMD and I do think that Saddam would have used(if he did or didn't have them) them like he has used them in the past.

Going after the person or persons bent on using them should be of the highest priorities, simply because you never know what is going to happen. The best thing that could be done about countries that make them is through the UN and try to get some kind of embargo on it.


On a side note, Blackbird, healthy discussion shouldn't be considered a game of one upsmanship. It is a healthy and vital part of human relations that is needed for people to express themselves and get information to better understand a topic.

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#22    Blackbird

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Posted 11 September 2003 - 11:45 AM

    Just though he tried to make some points about several things that things that either didn't happen or turned around to bite us later.  
    I never understood the reason for going in to Iraq(and no one try and suggest the trade center attack), when we knew so little about what we would find. I heard on the news that WMD, nuclear weapons, locals greeting us with flowers and gas prices going down all over the news. When we get there we find no WMD, no nuclear capabilities or attempts, the locals greet us alright...with car bombs and surprise attacks and I can't get a gallon of gas under $1.80. I never understood why we didn't ask more questions of our leaders and why I have to except the fact that I was lied to.huh.gif
   And as far as arguing, the whole point of a arguement or discussion is to prove one person wrong and make a point and I think Kismit's points in the end proved to be correct. Arguing is one-upsmanship, its making a point that cannot be refutted by the arguing party...  


#23    Homer

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Posted 12 September 2003 - 02:24 AM

QUOTE (Blackbird @ Sep 11 2003, 07:45 AM)
the locals greet us alright...with car bombs and surprise attacks and I can't get a gallon of gas under $1.80

Blackbird, the locals did greet us with open arms, as it has been seen in every country on earth. The locals are not the ones taking shots at the coalition. Unfortunately, Iraq has very porous borders, and it's impossible to keep terrorists out without tighter security on the border. It's these terrorists that are creating the unstable and dangerous environment in Iraq, and not the locals. In fact, a new zogby poll has the majority of Iraqi's wanting a democratic country based on the American model. They want better protection from the coalition, but they don't hate the coalition. As far as the gas prices, it was never about the oil this time, so that point is irrelevant.

Also, you questioned why we went to war with Iraq. There are actually several threads related to this, and many interesting and heated debates. this thread is a very provocative and informative thread about that subject, and on page 3, I have 2 posts where I outline the moral and legal obligations for war.

This may not change your mind, but it should open your eyes as to why the majority of people disagree with you.

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#24    Bizarro

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Posted 12 September 2003 - 03:14 AM

i can sum all this up in a few words:

some things are worth fighting for.

sure, its hard and we lose soldiers.  that is war.  things don't always turn out as planned but its still the right thing to do.  i would hope to see the UN get more involved now so that our soldiers could come home for once in the past year or more, but i understand that we still may have to go it alone.  in the end, this will be good for the middle east.  

if there was a meteor,
adrift amongst space,
set about on a collision course
not with Earth, but my face...
i wonder if id even know,
at what time i might,
be passed off like an old style
and by the meteor be smite?

- me, 1997

#25    thepsychoticseaotter

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Posted 12 September 2003 - 04:01 PM

I'm with Bizzarro on this. But I have a differing theory altogether. I think Iraq has turned into a plot by the UN to discredit and destroy the US and Uk's reputations.

Look at the cahin of events.

The UN inspectors go to Iraq and tell us Iraq has them or could have them.

Colin Powell addresses the Un and the blocking moves by France and Germany begin. Then comes the war and suddenly no wmds are found.


Here's what I think Happened. The UN "inspectors" actaully helped Iraq destroy or hide the wmd's then may have taken Saddam to safety. (possibly Paris). Also they  leaked us false intellegence to expose at a later date.

Then after the war ends and we cannot locate Sadam, wmds, or control the terror bombings the Un either comes in at the last minute or leaves it to us to deal with.

Either way Our downfall would make the US and UK seem unreliable and would open up large door for a UN agenda that could include Globalization.

  It is very probable and looks to be true given events that are going on right now.

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#26    Ericat

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Posted 12 September 2003 - 05:11 PM

..  ah ....no........ !






btw,  given the recent number of humans that have been 'taken off the census' by flying projectiles in Iraq, is it not viable to assume that perhaps it is them not US that possess some kinda super secret satanic weapon of unspeakable appointment??


sad.gif  


#27    thepsychoticseaotter

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Posted 12 September 2003 - 05:20 PM

Right ok....(wishes he had his rubber chicken from the D&D boards to beat him senseless with)  grin2.gif  

Ravens KeepA forum for Classic D&D, AD&D and the upcoming Castles and Crusades.

Soon it's over, all the dwarfs defeated
The silence of the caverns stand still
Orcs took the command of the caves and depths
The darklord has reached his will ---Battlelore

Fill my mug, I just want to forget
All the troubles and fighting
And the ghosts in my head --Battlelore

#28    Blackbird

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Posted 13 September 2003 - 03:08 AM

    thepsychoticseaotter! Finally, back to government conspiracies! This is what I was looking for! Interesting idea...certainly not impossible. You know what though, what I find pretty weird, and mabey someone can explain how this happened...does anyone remember how Saddam gassed his own people awhile back? Does anyone remember on who it was initially blamed on? See if you can come up with the answer(HINT: it wasn't Saddam). wink2.gif  


#29    Homer

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Posted 13 September 2003 - 12:40 PM

Shouldn't this be in the UM Trivia section rolleyes.gif  

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#30    Nintendork

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Posted 13 September 2003 - 03:11 PM

QUOTE (Bizarro @ Oct 17 2002, 02:39 AM)


Pravda is the same news that runs all types of wacko stories- i think ive even seen them say 'elvis discovered on the moon' once.  


I remember THAT  laugh.gif  laugh.gif  grin2.gif  grin2.gif  

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