11638 replies to this topic

[Abramelin]

Alewyn, on 14 February 2011 - 05:25 PM, said:

I have to disagree with you again. The OLB does not say or even hint at Friso ever having stayed in India. When Friso arrived back in Friesland, he uttered these words:

"We come from the Fere Krekaland to preserve our customs. Now we wish you to be kind enough to give us as much land as will enable us to live."

He himself said that he came from Greece (according to the OLB)

As for the iron-working in India: My sources all say this started ca 1500 BC

Yes, you are right again... My head is spinning from reading about and in the OLB, combined with reading other old Frisian legends (about Friso).

But what I said about the start of iron working in India is a quote from the pdf you yourself posted.

[Otharus]

Abramelin, on 14 February 2011 - 04:57 PM, said:

It's indeed the other Frisian legends that say that Friso came from India.

But overall the OLB has many similarities with those other legends.

Have you actually read any of the old-Frisian chronicles?

There are hardly any similarities, the only ones I can think of now are Friso and Azinga Ascon (Asega Askar or black Adel in OLB), and OLB gives a completely different perspective than we know from the legends. Ottema pointed this out too in his introduction to his translation.

Thet Freske Riim suggests that the Frisians stem from Sem, one of the three sons of Noah...

Kroniek van Friesland (Occo Scarlensis) suggests that before Friso c.s. arrived, our lands were inhabited by giants from Albion...

They don't say much about the time before the year zero.

Edited by Otharus, 14 February 2011 - 05:48 PM.

[Abramelin]

Otharus, on 14 February 2011 - 05:30 PM, said:

Urk is of zero-point-zero relevance here.

The Zuiderzee was indeed called Flevum/ Almere,
just like Nijmegen was called Noviomagum,
and Utrecht => Trajectum,
and Dokkum => Dockynchirica,
and Wijk bij Duurstede => Dorestadum
and Holland, Utrecht, Friesland => Frisia
...
AFTER the history of the first millennium was imported to our provinces in the beginning of the second millenium (as I have extensively explained before).

Another interesting quote from:
KRITIEK der FRIESCHE GESCHIEDSCHRIJVING (Review of Frisian Historiography)
by Dr. J. BOLHUIS VAN ZEEBURGH (1873) Page 68 (about Gesta Fresonum):

Dutch:
"Van den tijd waar de heiligenlevens en de verhalen van Karel den groote onzen kroniekschrijver begeven (d. i. van ongeveer 900 tot 1200) tot aan de kruistochten wordt niets verhaald, eene gaping, die ook in andere Friesche kronieken bestaat."

English:
"From the time of the hagiographies and the tales of Charlemagne till the crusades (that is from ca. 900 till 1200), our chronicler has no reports, a gaping hole, that also exists in other Frisian chronicles."

I know it must be hard, having to unlearn things you liked so much at primary school.
The older you are, the more it hurts (for a little while).

Heh, you really think I remember everything I learned at primary school?

You said:
The Zuiderzee was indeed called Flevum/ Almere,
just like Nijmegen was called Noviomagum,
and Utrecht => Trajectum,
and Dokkum => Dockynchirica,
and Wijk bij Duurstede => Dorestadum
and Holland, Utrecht, Friesland => Frisia

Well, at least from the Dutch Dorestad it is now known by many archeological finds to have been an important city of the Frisians. And existing in a time Delahaye and his supporters were convinced that it either did not exist at all, or wasn't important at all.


Btw, I read somewhere that during those Dunkirk Transgressions the Frisians - temporarily - may have settled in northern Belgium / Flanders. I lost the link, but it was a Dutch site, and it didn't even mention Delahaye.

But knowing the Dunkirk Transgressions Theory has been abandoned, this is of no real importance anymore.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 14 February 2011 - 05:49 PM.

[cormac mac airt]

Quote

As for the iron-working in India: My sources all say this started ca 1500 BC.

Then you might want to add the source for the following, to your sources. Of particular note, IMO, see Table 2, showing dates well prior to c.1550 BC.

From source:

Quote

These results indicate that iron using and iron working was prevalent in the Central Ganga Plain and the Eastern Vindhyas from the early second millennium BC. The dates obtained so far group into three: three dates between c. 1200-900 cal BC, three between c. 1400-1200 cal BC, and five between c. 1800-1500 cal BC.

The origins of iron-working in India: new evidence from the Central Ganga
Plain and the Eastern Vindhyas

cormac

[Abramelin]

Otharus, on 14 February 2011 - 05:46 PM, said:

Have you actually read any of the old-Frisian chronicles?

There are hardly any similarities, the only ones I can think of now are Friso and Azinga Ascon (Asega Askar or black Adel in OLB), and OLB gives a completely different perspective than we know from the legends. Ottema pointed this out too in his introduction to his translation.

Thet Freske Riim suggests that the Frisians stem from Sem, one of the three sons of Noah...

Kroniek van Friesland (Occo Scarlensis) suggests that before Friso c.s. arrived, our lands were inhabited by giants from Albion...

They don't say much about the time before the year zero.

Yes, I did.

I have talked about those disasters (a 1000 feet high flood, crumbling mountains), and I read about Friso's adventures with the Greek. Based on Van Haren's poem, as you remember.


Similarity is NOT the same as copy, btw. I mean story elements.

[Abramelin]

cormac mac airt, on 14 February 2011 - 05:52 PM, said:

Then you might want to add the source for the following, to your sources. Of particular note, IMO, see Table 2, showing dates well prior to c.1550 BC.

From source:



The origins of iron-working in India: new evidence from the Central Ganga
Plain and the Eastern Vindhyas

cormac

LOL, that is the pdf both Alewyn and I have quoted from.

[Otharus]

Abramelin, on 14 February 2011 - 05:48 PM, said:

Well, at least from the Dutch Dorestad it is now known by many archeological finds to have been an important city of the Frisians.

If this would not be exaggerated, there should be loads about it on the web, even videos.

[Abramelin]

Otharus, on 14 February 2011 - 06:01 PM, said:

If this would not be exaggerated, there should be loads about it on the web, even videos.

Man, Google "Dorestad" and "archeologie".

[cormac mac airt]

Abramelin, on 14 February 2011 - 05:55 PM, said:

LOL, that is the pdf both Alewyn and I have quoted from.

And yet it DOESN'T say that iron-working started c.1500 BC, which was Alewyn's claim concerning his sources.

cormac

[Abramelin]

Abramelin, on 14 February 2011 - 04:57 PM, said:

#1- No, the OLB does indeed not say Friso came from India, only that he had lived there. It's indeed the other Frisian legends that say that Friso came from India.

But overall the OLB has many similarities with those other legends.


#2 OK, that was an error. But even then the timing is off: the Geertmannen went to India in 1550 BC, iron working was in India centuries before that.

You say ca 1550 BC. I have to look that one up in the OLB: I assumed the OLB said it was exactly 1550 BC.

Couldn't find it, but I think Ottema calculated the date, or guessed it:

De vestiging van die kolonie in Indie aan den Pangab in 1551 voor Chr. en hunne reis derwaarts, vinden wij in Adela's boek vrij uitvoerig beschreven

http://www.dbnl.org/...t01_01_0001.php

He says it's 1551 BC.

[Abramelin]

cormac mac airt, on 14 February 2011 - 06:05 PM, said:

And yet it DOESN'T say that iron-working started c.1500 BC, which was Alewyn's claim concerning his sources.

cormac

True, but I think he meant other sources.

Well, that pdf appears to be the most recent paper on the history of iron working in India, so the date of the start of iron working in India will be centuries older than 1550 BC.

[cormac mac airt]

Abramelin, on 14 February 2011 - 06:08 PM, said:

True, but I think he meant other sources.

Well, that pdf appears to be the most recent paper on the history of iron working in India, so the date of the start of iron working in India will be centuries older than 1550 BC.

I know you'll think it's nit-picking, but he said "all my sources", so if my last link was one of those sources then he pretty much shot himself in the foot. And yes, the date would be older and therefore not directly relevant to either the 1500 or 1550 BC dates.

cormac

[Abramelin]

cormac mac airt, on 14 February 2011 - 06:20 PM, said:

I know you'll think it's nit-picking, but he said "all my sources", so if my last link was one of those sources then he pretty much shot himself in the foot. And yes, the date would be older and therefore not directly relevant to either the 1500 or 1550 BC dates.

cormac

Heh, no I don't think you are nitpicking. On the other hand, being as accurate as possible is indeed necessary in this thread.

About the paper or any scientific paper: I always start with the conclusion or discussion, not with the intro.

Saves a lot of time.

[cormac mac airt]

Abramelin, on 14 February 2011 - 06:24 PM, said:

Heh, no I don't think you are nitpicking. On the other hand, being as accurate as possible is indeed necessary in this thread.

About the paper or any scientific paper: I always start with the conclusion or discussion, not with the intro.

Saves a lot of time.

Yes it is and yes it does. And I think we can both agree it doesn't lend any credibility to ones claim to state something as fact, only to have their previous link or citation say something completely different.

cormac

[Abramelin]

Abramelin, on 14 February 2011 - 06:03 PM, said:

Man, Google "Dorestad" and "archeologie".

Something better (and I already posted about the next guy in post 463, page 31):


-In 1999 pubiceerde Joël Vandemaele  in zijn boek "Controversiele Geschiedenis" zijn onderzoek naar de plaatsen die genoemd worden in het Oera Linda Boek, in relatie tot plaatsen in het huidige Noord Frankrijk en West-Vlaanderen. Mede gebaseerd op de studies van Albert Delahay en anderen. (zie kaart)

In his book "Controversial History" (1999), Joel Vandemaele published his research on the places mentioned in the Oera Linda Book, in relation to current locations in present Northern France and Western Flanders. Partly based on the studies of Albert Delahay and others. (see map)



http://home.planet.n....5.atlantis.htm


==

-J.Vandemaele vermeldt één plaatsbepaling in het OLB van Atlantis, "Ons voormalige westland, rechtover Brittannia gelegen" De plaatsbepaling correspondeert met Oud-Frisia "usque ad Armorem" uit Karel de Grote's Lex Frisonum, nl. tot aan Bretagne met de nederzetting van Kerenak of Carnac, waar "het goud van de Golen verzameld was, dat Askar uit OLB ging roven".

J. Vandemaele lists one location of Atlantis in the OLB, "Our former Westland, located directly opposite Britannia". The location corresponds to Old Frisia 'usque ad Armorem" from Charlemagne's Lex Frisonum, namely up to Brittany with the settlement Kerenak or Carnac, where "the gold of the Gauls had been collected, which  Askar from the OLB was going to rob"

http://www.kunstgeog.../atlantis05.htm



Joël Vandemaele, "Controversiele Geschiedenis" :

http://www.mens-en-c...hiedschrijving/

.

Edited by Abramelin, 14 February 2011 - 07:53 PM.