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[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood


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#7666    Alewyn

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 08:37 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 17 November 2011 - 08:22 PM, said:

I also told you why: the Troyan war took 10 years (1194-1184 / Eratosthenes); 1189 (and NOT 1188, which is based on the erroneous OLB date of 2193 BC; it should be 2194 BC) was smack in the middle of those 10 years.

I also showed you that some scientists - based on their knowledge of ancient eclipses - come to a date of 1178 BC.
Ulysses did not go to Frisia "smack in the middle" of the war, but after the war. So again, why did the OLB not use Eratosthenes' date?
(Btw. the erroneous date was used by the translators, and not the original OLB)


#7667    Alewyn

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 08:41 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 17 November 2011 - 06:44 PM, said:

Thach hwat brde, an giptalanda thr wre en overprester, hel fon gnum, klr fon bryn aend licht fon gst, sin nm wre Skrops,(*) hy km vmb rd to jvane.

Doch wat gebeurd, een Egyptenaar die een overpriester was, helder van oogen, klaar van brein, en verlicht van geest, zijn naam was Cecrops, hij kwam om raad te geven.

Then what happened, an Egyptian high priest, bright of eye, clear of brain, and enlightened of mind, whose name was Cecrops, came to give them advice


"Skrops" is being translated as "Cecrops".

OK, from the description in the OLB and what can be found on about Cecrops, these two must be the same:

Cecrops (Greek: Κέκροψ, Kkrops; gen.: Κέκροπος) was a mythical king of Athens who is said to have reigned for fifty-six years. The name is not of Greek origin according to Strabo,[1] or it might mean 'face with a tail': it is said that, born from the earth itself, he had his top half shaped like a man and the bottom half in serpent or fish-tail form. He was the founder and the first king of Athens itself, though preceded in the region by the earth-born king Actaeus of Attica. Cecrops was a culture hero, teaching the Athenians marriage, reading and writing, and ceremonial burial.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cecrops_I

Cecrops (Kekrps). A hero of the Pelasgic race, said to have been the first king of Attica. He was married to Agraulos, daughter of Actaeus, by whom he had a son, Erysichthon, who succeeded him as king of Athens, and three daughters, Agraulos, Hers, and Pandrosos. In his reign Poseidon and Athen contended for the possession of Attica, but Cecrops decided in favor of the goddess. Cecrops is said to have founded Athens--the citadel of which was called Cecropia, after him--to have divided Attica into twelve communities, and to have introduced the first elements of civilized life. (See Athenae.) He instituted marriage, abolished bloody sacrifices, and taught his subjects how to worship the gods. The later Greek writers describe Cecrops as a native of Sas in Egypt, who led a colony of Egyptians into Attica, and thus introduced from Egypt the arts of civilized life; but this account is rejected by some of the ancients themselves, and by the ablest modern critics.

http://www.websters-...nitions/Cecrops

But now this...

Many people who never studied Greek will pronounce "Cecrops" like "Sekrops"... with an -s- , a common mistake.

There is - as far as I know - know no linguistical explanation for a shift from -s- to -k- or visa versa.

The only explanation is that the one writing the passages about "Skrops" made the same error as all those who never studied Greek would have made.
What's your point?


#7668    Alewyn

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 09:00 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 17 November 2011 - 06:56 PM, said:

What was a "Minerva" doing in Walhallagara?

I'll tell you: it was based on an 18th century poem:

Het Germaanse deel van het pantheon werd aanvankelijk niet met behulp van christelijke speculaties in de eigen cultuur opgenomen (zoals Eelhart later deed), maar via de bekende klassiek-Romeinse clichs. Een illustratie daarvan is een gedicht uit 1740 waarin het Walhalla en de Elyzeese velden in n adem worden genoemd,

By de Walhalla, en het Elizeesche veld,
Is Neerlandsch Tempe met Minervaas bos gelegen
Een rust- en vreugdeplaats voor elken braaven held,
Die door zyn vlyt en deugd heeft waren lof verkregen:
Daar groend de schoonste beemd, bezaayd en overdekt
Met Palmboom, en Laurier, en Mirthen, en Olyven.

In een noot werd op gezag van een Deense (in het Latijn geschreven) publicatie over Deense oudheden uitgelegd dat dit Walhalla met zijn mediterrane flora het rijk van Odin was, de Vorst der Schimmen


http://www.dbnl.org/...a01_01_0005.php

tempe: http://www.etymologi...refwoord/tempe1

As soon as I am in the mood I will translate it.

But it appears I have been put on ignore by those who think I post too 'difficult' posts, so I am not in a hurry.
Now you are really stretching it.

Walhallagara is the former island of Walcheren in the province of Zeeland in the Netherlands.
Walhalla, which is described in the poem, is some great hall or heaven in Norse Mythology where those that fell in battle, go to.

So you see, the poem describes the mythological Minerva in the mythological Walhalla. Now you say this inspired the OLB?

You have previously accused Puzzler of Lego-linguistics but, man, you are really into Lego-Fables.


#7669    Abramelin

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 09:00 PM

View PostAlewyn, on 17 November 2011 - 08:41 PM, said:

What's your point?

My point (which should be bloody obvious to anyone else): the one making up the "Skrops" name didn't know that it should have been Kekrops. With a -K- .


#7670    Abramelin

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 09:01 PM

View PostAlewyn, on 17 November 2011 - 09:00 PM, said:

Now you are really stretching it.

Walhallagara is the former island of Walcheren in the province of Zeeland in the Netherlands.
Walhalla, which is described in the poem, is some great hall or heaven in Norse Mythology where those that fell in battle, go to.

So you see, the poem describes the mythological Minerva in the mythological Walhalla. Now you say this inspired the OLB?

You have previously accused Puzzler of Lego-linguistics but, man, you are really into Lego-Fables.

I just tried to be on the same level with you all.

What you can do, I can do too.

And as you must have read: it's the only available connection between anything 'Walhalla' and Minerva.

Or as some others would put it: just another coincidence.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 17 November 2011 - 09:05 PM.


#7671    Abramelin

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 09:03 PM

View PostAlewyn, on 17 November 2011 - 08:37 PM, said:

Ulysses did not go to Frisia "smack in the middle" of the war, but after the war. So again, why did the OLB not use Eratosthenes' date?
(Btw. the erroneous date was used by the translators, and not the original OLB)

Well, do you have any confirmation of the 1189 BC date of Ulysses leaving after the war?

You don't.

And Eratosthenes' calculations is what they used to make up a date.


#7672    Abramelin

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 09:08 PM

View PostAlewyn, on 17 November 2011 - 08:27 PM, said:

I think you have your facts mixed up.
Nowhere did I see the date of 2193 BC or even 2200 BC. You are really stretching the facts here to say that this inspired the OLB to write about the 2200 BC event.

The Oera Linda Book does describe a flood in Friso's time - in 305 BC which, I would like to suggest, was the Cimbrian Flood.

But it's about the events descibed in that part of the poem, and no one had any clue when this Cimbrian flood really happened.

Dear old Ottema thought that 2194 BC was the Cimbrian flood.

Overwijn thought it was 6250 BC (Doggerland).

And according to the Frisian historian Schotanus whom I posted about it was either 350 or 360 BC. You know, the same guy who created a map of the ancient Netherlands with a Middelzee in Friesland and Pillars of Hercules at its entrance.

A map owned by Halbertsma.



.

Edited by Abramelin, 17 November 2011 - 09:13 PM.


#7673    Otharus

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 09:13 PM

Translating exercise

For our German speaking readers (do we have any?), here's a new translation of the FORMA SKÉDNISE (creation myth), compared to Wirth's version of 1933.

The new translation was made without having seen the one by Wirth.

"WR-ALDA" in the new version is feminine, because in German, the word for "world" (Welt) is.

Note that Wirth simply left out lines 27-28.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

OLB Creation Myth ~ original text; with line numbers (p.6)
German translation by Herman Wirth (1933; p.16)
New German translation by Ulrike (without having seen Wirth's)

12 THAT IS VSA FORMA SKÉDNISE.
Dies ist unsere älteste Geschichte
Das ist unsere früheste Geschichte:

13 WR.ALDA THAM ALLÉNA GOD ÀND ÉVG IS. MAKADE T.ANFANG.
Wralda, der allein gut und ewig ist, machte den Anfang,
WR-ALDA (Ur-Alte/Welt), die alleine gut und ewig ist, machte den Anfang.

14 DANA KÉM TID. TID WROCHTE ALLE THINGA. ÁK JRTHA.
dann kam die Zeit; die Zeit schuf alle Dinge, auch die Erde (Irtha).
Danach kam die Zeit. Die Zeit brachte alle Dinge hervor, auch die Erde.

15 JRTHA BÀRDE ALLE GÀRSA KRÚDON ÀND BÔMA.
Irtha gebar alle Gräser, Kräuter, Bäume,
Die Erde gebar alle Gräser, Kräuter und Bäume.

16 ALLET DJARA KWIK ÀND ALLE.T ÀRGE KWIK.
all das liebe und all das arge Getier.
Alle teuren Tiere und alle argen Tiere.

17 ALHWAT GOD ÀND DJAR IS. BROCHT HJU BY DÉGUM
Alles, was gut und lieblich ist, brachte sie am Tage
Alles, was gut und teuer ist, brachte sie bei Tag hervor

18 ÀND ALHWAT KWÁD ÀND ÀRG IS. BROCHT HJU THES NACHTIS FORTH.
und alles, was übel und arg ist, brachte sie zur Nachtzeit hervor.
und alles, was böse und arg ist, brachte sie bei Nacht hervor.

19 AFTER.ET TWILIFTE JOL.FÉRSTE BÀRDE HJU THRJA MANGÉRTA
Nach dem zwölften Julfest gebar sie drei Maide:
Nach dem zwölften JOL-Fest brachte sie drei Mädchen hervor.

20 LYDA
WÀRTH UT GLÍANDE
FINDA
WÀRTH UT HÉTA. ÀND
FRYA
WARTH UT WARME STOF.

Lyda ward aus glühendem,
Finda ward aus heißem und
Frya aus warmem Staube
Lyda wurde aus glühendem,
Finda wurde aus heißem, und
Frya wurde aus warmem Staub gemacht.


26 THÁ HJA BLÁT KÉMON SPISDE WR.ALDA HJAM MITH SINA ÁDAMA.
Da sie bloß kamen, speiste Wralda sie mit seinem Odem.
Als sie bloß hervorkamen, speiste WR-ALDA sie mit ihrem Atem,

27 TILTHJU THA MÀNNESKA AN HIM SKOLDE BVNDEN WÉSA.
- - - (left out by Wirth)
sodass die Menschen an sie gebunden sein würden.

28 RING AS HJA RIP WÉRON KRÉJON HJA FRÜCHDA ÀND NOCHTA ANDA DRÁMA.
- - - (left out by Wirth)
Sobald sie reif waren, kamen Freude/Früchte und Genüsse/Nüsse in ihre Träume.

29 WR.ALDAS OD TRÀD TO RA BINNA.
Od (Gottes Odem) trat zu ihnen ein
WR-ALDAs OD (?) trat in sie ein.

30 ÀND NW BÀRDON EK TWILIF SVNA ÀND TWILIF TOGETHERA.
und nun gebar jede zwölf Söhne und zwölf Töchter,
Und nun gebaren sie jede zwölf Söhne und zwölf Töchter,

31 EK JOL.TID TWÉN.
eine jegliche Julzeit zween.
zu jeder JOL-Zeit Zwillinge.

32 THÉROF SEND ALLE MÀNNESKA KÉMEN.
Davon sind alle Menschen gekommen.
Daraus sind alle Menschen hervorgekommen.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

P.S. I will comment on some of the posts of the last few pages later

Edited by Otharus, 17 November 2011 - 09:17 PM.


#7674    Abramelin

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 09:18 PM

30 ND NW BRDON EK TWILIF SVNA ND TWILIF TOGETHERA.
und nun gebar jede zwlf Shne und zwlf Tchter,
Und nun gebaren sie jede zwlf Shne und zwlf Tchter

Dutch:

En nu baarden elk twaalf zonen and twaalf dochters.

I think I will stick to my Dutch, lol.


#7675    Alewyn

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 09:26 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 17 November 2011 - 08:17 PM, said:

I also showed you a link to a 19th century book about the "Iren".

I also showed you their native name was known for like 1800 years (Sasanid empire); anyone interested in ancient Persian history could have read the name "Ira" in some book.

Please be a bit more specific than just saying "some book". This is speculation and not fact.

Quote

And what you showed about Frya in the Avesta was always in a combination.

No it was not. It says: "we worship the Fravashi (angels or spirit) of the holy Frya" and " we worship the Fravashiof the holy Yoishta of the Fryana house" (the house of Frya).

Quote

And I will bet you can find a "Frya" or something similar sounding on a Samoan island.

Again speculation.

Quote

And nothing what you showed me was unknown in the 19th century.

This is your argument everytime you are in a corner.
For one thing, the Avesta had not been translated before the Oera Linda Book was discovered.

English translation by James Darmesteter (From Sacred Books of the East, American Edition, 1898.
Avestan text based on edition of Karl F. Geldner, Avesta, the Sacred Books of the Parsis, Stuttgart, 1896.

That is 30 years after the OLB came into the public domain.

Edited by Alewyn, 17 November 2011 - 09:28 PM.


#7676    Alewyn

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 09:41 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 17 November 2011 - 09:03 PM, said:

Well, do you have any confirmation of the 1189 BC date of Ulysses leaving after the war?

You don't.

And Eratosthenes' calculations is what they used to make up a date.
In his Odyssey, Homer says that Ulysses did not return home but went straigt on his voyage. That would be 1188 BC as accepted today as the end of the Trojan War(or 1189 BC as per the OLB, if you wish).
So yes, this is about as much confirmation as we can glean from Homer. The OLB, of course, gives us the date.


#7677    Abramelin

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 10:05 PM

View PostAlewyn, on 17 November 2011 - 09:41 PM, said:

In his Odyssey, Homer says that Ulysses did not return home but went straigt on his voyage. That would be 1188 BC as accepted today as the end of the Trojan War(or 1189 BC as per the OLB, if you wish).
So yes, this is about as much confirmation as we can glean from Homer. The OLB, of course, gives us the date.

Source?

You DO know that for almost every word I post here, I always post the link where I got it from.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 17 November 2011 - 10:11 PM.


#7678    Abramelin

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 10:07 PM

And did anyone find out about an etymology of the OLB word "prentar" yet?

A word that - to me - was obviously borrowed from French/Latin?

Apprentice?


#7679    Abramelin

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 10:21 PM

View PostAlewyn, on 17 November 2011 - 09:26 PM, said:

Please be a bit more specific than just saying "some book". This is speculation and not fact.



No it was not. It says: "we worship the Fravashi (angels or spirit) of the holy Frya" and " we worship the Fravashiof the holy Yoishta of the Fryana house" (the house of Frya).



Again speculation.



This is your argument everytime you are in a corner.
For one thing, the Avesta had not been translated before the Oera Linda Book was discovered.

English translation by James Darmesteter (From Sacred Books of the East, American Edition, 1898.
Avestan text based on edition of Karl F. Geldner, Avesta, the Sacred Books of the Parsis, Stuttgart, 1896.

That is 30 years after the OLB came into the public domain.


Pictet, Adolphe "Iren und Arier" Beiträge zur vergleichenden Sprachforschung auf dem Gebiete der arischen, celtischen und slawischen Sprachen 1858.

I could show your more, but some politically correct XXXX accused me of being a neo-Nazi when I posted that other source, a source published decades before the OLB was published. My posts with that source were deleted.

I looked up the first post where you mentioned "We worship the Fravashi of the holy Frya."  It's nothing but the same word, and it has no relationship at all with anything in the OLB.

The Japanese also use the word "so" like the English do. They also say "Hay" almost the same like a Scot would say, "Aye". And it even means the same.




.

Edited by Abramelin, 17 November 2011 - 10:42 PM.


#7680    The Puzzler

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 03:31 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 17 November 2011 - 06:44 PM, said:

Thach hwat brde, an giptalanda thr wre en overprester, hel fon gnum, klr fon bryn aend licht fon gst, sin nm wre Skrops,(*) hy km vmb rd to jvane.

Doch wat gebeurd, een Egyptenaar die een overpriester was, helder van oogen, klaar van brein, en verlicht van geest, zijn naam was Cecrops, hij kwam om raad te geven.

Then what happened, an Egyptian high priest, bright of eye, clear of brain, and enlightened of mind, whose name was Cecrops, came to give them advice


"Skrops" is being translated as "Cecrops".

OK, from the description in the OLB and what can be found on about Cecrops, these two must be the same:

Cecrops (Greek: Κέκροψ, Kkrops; gen.: Κέκροπος) was a mythical king of Athens who is said to have reigned for fifty-six years. The name is not of Greek origin according to Strabo,[1] or it might mean 'face with a tail': it is said that, born from the earth itself, he had his top half shaped like a man and the bottom half in serpent or fish-tail form. He was the founder and the first king of Athens itself, though preceded in the region by the earth-born king Actaeus of Attica. Cecrops was a culture hero, teaching the Athenians marriage, reading and writing, and ceremonial burial.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cecrops_I

Cecrops (Kekrps). A hero of the Pelasgic race, said to have been the first king of Attica. He was married to Agraulos, daughter of Actaeus, by whom he had a son, Erysichthon, who succeeded him as king of Athens, and three daughters, Agraulos, Hers, and Pandrosos. In his reign Poseidon and Athen contended for the possession of Attica, but Cecrops decided in favor of the goddess. Cecrops is said to have founded Athens--the citadel of which was called Cecropia, after him--to have divided Attica into twelve communities, and to have introduced the first elements of civilized life. (See Athenae.) He instituted marriage, abolished bloody sacrifices, and taught his subjects how to worship the gods. The later Greek writers describe Cecrops as a native of Sas in Egypt, who led a colony of Egyptians into Attica, and thus introduced from Egypt the arts of civilized life; but this account is rejected by some of the ancients themselves, and by the ablest modern critics.

http://www.websters-...nitions/Cecrops

But now this...

Many people who never studied Greek will pronounce "Cecrops" like "Sekrops"... with an -s- , a common mistake.

There is - as far as I know - know no linguistical explanation for a shift from -s- to -k- or visa versa.

The only explanation is that the one writing the passages about "Skrops" made the same error as all those who never studied Greek would have made.
Not exactly sure but I'd be pretty sure if the OLB is a fake whoever wrote it knew Greek.

Here's what I see, for a start the name is not Greek in origin, it's Egyptian, from Sais.

Second, the letter C is not in Frisian, or at least doesn't exist in the Frisian dictionary.

Secrops might actually be the true rendering of this name, the Greeks who didn't use c either, they have k - kappa or gamma where our c is - used an Egyptian name - they rendered it according to their own language - KEkrops, but the name was possibly SE/CE crops to start with. Otherwise into English it would still be KEY/krops.

I'd find it highly unusual that in transferring this word to English as CEcrops, the sound would still be pronounced as KE.

In an mmm bop it's gone...