The Guilt Trip

[Grandpa Greenman]

All religions do it, the guilt trip. I don't mean your guilty because you have hurt someone or done some heinous crime. The idea you are guilty from the start, from some thing your ancestors did or some dogma you didn't follow. It all seems to come down to you're not holding your mouth right. A rock falls out of the sky and bonks you on the head. Bad karma or Gods punishment, either way it your fault, you have done something you shouldn't.

Christians do it, Muslims, Jews, Buddhist, Pagans, whatever befalls you it is something you have done. The only way to make it right is to do what it says in their little black book of spells they are selling. You have to be forgiven. Ok for what? I haven't nailed anyone to a cross, I didn't steal from the sky man's tree. I had a Pagan once tell me I was sick because I wasn't honoring my ancestors. I waited until he has something they had to operate on to lay that one back on him.

I am not going to buy it. If your God or Saviour whats to tell me to my face what I have done I should be saved or guilty about he is going to have to tell me to my face. I am not falling for your book of spells. I am not taking the guilt trip, I have gotten off at the station.

[GoldenWolf]

There is no bigger guilt trip than the crucifixion of jesus, "he was bruised for our iniquities".

B.S., he was crucified for being a terrorist.

[Grandpa Greenman]

He was crucified for being a heretic. Ironic isn't it.

[Bluefinger]

He was crucified for being a heretic. Ironic isn't it.

And those that handed him over to be crucified as a 'heretic' were slaughtered by the hundreds of thousands, expelled from their land for about 2,000 years, and much worse.

Its not black and white Dakwind. Nobody is going to stroke your ego on this topic. Life isn't a science. You can't make exact measurements and accurate predictions of what certain scenarios would need to occur to get specific reactions. Some things don't make sense.

And I'd take Jesus' words over yours any day. There's a lot more love in them.

Edited May 20, 2013 by Bluefinger

[shrooma]

religion is all down to control.

ALL religions.

[Bluefinger]

religion is all down to control.

ALL religions.

If people weren't evil and full of pride and hatred, do you control would even be a problem?

Likewise, would any city need a justice system or laws? It seems to me that freedom isn't the issue.

Freedom to be a complete jerk to someone seems to be more at the heart of this issue.

[Grandpa Greenman]

And those that handed him over to be crucified as a 'heretic' were slaughtered by the hundreds of thousands, expelled from their land for about 2,000 years, and much worse.

Its not black and white Dakwind. Nobody is going to stroke your ego on this topic. Life isn't a science. You can't make exact measurements and accurate predictions of what certain scenarios would need to occur to get specific reactions. Some things don't make sense.

And I'd take Jesus' words over yours any day. There's a lot more love in them.

So now we blame Jews, Gypsy's, the disabled, Polls, Jehovah Witnesses and who ever else got in Hilers way for the actions of their murders. Sounds like another guilt trip to me. I don't remember Jesus ever writing a book, how do you know what his actual words were.

[Bluefinger]

So now we blame Jews, Gypsy's, the disabled, Polls, Jehovah Witnesses and who ever else got in Hilers way for the actions of their murders. Sounds like another guilt trip to me. I don't remember Jesus ever writing a book, how do you know what his actual words were.

nuh-uh. Don't turn this around into something it isn't. Address my argument, not yours.

[shrooma]

If people weren't evil and full of pride and hatred, do you control would even be a problem?

Likewise, would any city need a justice system or laws? It seems to me that freedom isn't the issue.

Freedom to be a complete jerk to someone seems to be more at the heart of this issue.

.

I don't quite follow you blue?

saying that everyone's heart is filled with evil and pride and hatred is a bit of a sweeping generalisation, one that you can't really justify.

i'm sure the pope would say he's not evil, or filled with hatred & pride.

not all people need strict governance or policing.

I once spent a few years roaming the country as part of an anarchic-communal collective, what used to be called a 'hippy convoy' of 'new-age travellers'.

we were a self-regulating group who shared everything between us, never locking our doors, and theft was unheard of.

we got by by organising festivals, policed by ourselves, and lived outside of the system with no trouble whatsoever. at one point, we had 50 vans, and over 250 people in our convoy, and there was no violence, no robbery, no rape, and society still branded us as troublemakers and dissidents, when all we wanted was to be left alone to live our own lives as we chose.

that's the thing about 'anarchy', most people believe it means chaos, and disorder, when it doesn't, it means 'an ideal state where governance or laws aren't needed', which is totally different to 'ungoverned' or 'lawless'.

Edited May 20, 2013 by shrooma

[eight bits]

Blue

And those that handed him over to be crucified as a 'heretic' were slaughtered by the hundreds of thousands, expelled from their land for about 2,000 years, and much worse.

Wow, I never guessed that there were hundreds of thousands of Sanhedrin members. And, as I recall, the vote wasn't even unanimous (or maybe those secret admirers like Nicodemus and Joseph of Arithmathea were so secretive that they voted to convict).

Live and learn. But those guys who sat in on the Jewish trial of Jesus must have been dead long before their descendant countrymen rose up against the Romans a generation after Pontius Pilate left Judea. Even then, the hard expulsion wasn't until the failed rebellion after that one.

Of course, the fortunes of the Jewish people in wars against a better equipped and better trained adversary with ample resources and bottomless will to fight could have nothing to do with a judicial trial that happened before most of the combatants were born. No supernatural explanation attaches. Jesse Livermore preached it best, IMO: The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that's the way to bet. Can I have an Amen?

Besides, a just God would never punish one man for the sins of another. And of course, no women had any say in the matter, period. No woman at all, then, would be justly punished. And hey, when God isn't all about justice, he's all about love.

Have I addressed your argument, d'ya think?

Edited May 20, 2013 by eight bits

[Bluefinger]

.

I don't quite follow you blue?

saying that everyone's heart is filled with evil and pride and hatred is a bit of a sweeping generalisation, one that you can't really justify.

i'm sure the pope would say he's not evil, or filled with hatred & pride.

not all people need strict governance or policing.

I once spent a few years roaming the country as part of an anarchic-communal collective, what used to be called a 'hippy convoy' of 'new-age travellers'.

we were a self-regulating group who shared everything between us, never locking our doors, and theft was unheard of.

we got by by organising festivals, policed by ourselves, and lived outside of the system with no trouble whatsoever. at one point, we had 50 vans, and over 250 people in our convoy, and there was no violence, no robbery, no rape, and society still branded us as troublemakers and dissidents, when all we wanted was to be left alone to live our own lives as we chose.

that's the thing about 'anarchy', most people believe it means chaos, and disorder, when it doesn't, it means 'an ideal state where governance or laws aren't needed', which is totally different to 'ungoverned' or 'lawless'.

I wasn't intending to use a sweeping generalization.

However, to be fair, 250 people isn't really a good example of an entire civilization keeping itself accountable. If you had 40,000, it would be way too much to self-govern without a justice system and a police.

When you throw foreigners in the mix, things get even more complicated.

Edited May 20, 2013 by Bluefinger

[Grandpa Greenman]

.

I don't quite follow you blue?

saying that everyone's heart is filled with evil and pride and hatred is a bit of a sweeping generalisation, one that you can't really justify.

i'm sure the pope would say he's not evil, or filled with hatred & pride.

not all people need strict governance or policing.

I once spent a few years roaming the country as part of an anarchic-communal collective, what used to be called a 'hippy convoy' of 'new-age travellers'.

we were a self-regulating group who shared everything between us, never locking our doors, and theft was unheard of.

we got by by organising festivals, policed by ourselves, and lived outside of the system with no trouble whatsoever. at one point, we had 50 vans, and over 250 people in our convoy, and there was no violence, no robbery, no rape, and society still branded us as troublemakers and dissidents, when all we wanted was to be left alone to live our own lives as we chose.

that's the thing about 'anarchy', most people believe it means chaos, and disorder, when it doesn't, it means 'an ideal state where governance or laws aren't needed', which is totally different to 'ungoverned' or 'lawless'.

We still got them here in the States. They hold a festival every year in the Ocala National Forest. At least they did when I lived there. We called them Rainbows. I have been to a lot of festivals like that everybodys cool, never any trouble. I pull in people see I am disabled. I start pulling out my stuff next thing I know I'm in a chair with a drink and everybody is setting up my camp and starting dinner. I love hippies.

[shrooma]

to be fair, 250 people isn't really a good example of an entire civilization keeping itself accountable.

.

and to be even fairer blue, we weren't a civilisation, we were a society, as are all groups of people who reside side-by-side with each other, and I wasn't aware that size was a factor in this argument, merely that people were inherently evil, and couldn't be trusted to control their baser urges without the moderating influence of the church, whereas I was just pointing out that that isn't necessarily the case.....

most people are law-abiding, and have a sense of morality that doesn't necessarily stem from the church, so how can me, a non-believer (in organised religion), have more faith in my fellow man than you, a believer in a god who made us in his own image? do you doubt his creation's ability to fulfil his promise? it seems that way if you believe people are filled with evil and pride and hatred.

[little_dreamer]

I've heard the phrase "Guilt is a useless emotion" but I don't know who originally said it.

I definitely don't have any use for "guilt for the sake of guilt", or guilt only for the purpose of control.

[shrooma]

We still got them here in the States. They hold a festival every year in the Ocala National Forest. At least they did when I lived there. We called them Rainbows. I have been to a lot of festivals like that everybodys cool, never any trouble. I pull in people see I am disabled. I start pulling out my stuff next thing I know I'm in a chair with a drink and everybody is setting up my camp and starting dinner. I love hippies.

.

that's how it was for us darkwind, the general public never saw us as a threat, and whenever we rolled into town, it was like the circus had arrived! we had a network of sympathetic farmers who would allow us to use their land, and within hours of our arrival, word would go out and streams of local villagers would start arriving from miles around, all wanting to know when the party was starting!

after the govt introduced the criminal justice act, a lot of the convoys broke up or moved abroad, to holland, spain, and the states, where TPTB were more tolerant of alternative lifestyles, but as a parting '**** you!' to the man, the spiral tribe got us all together for one big blow-out at a place called castle morton, for an event that ran for a week, was attended by thousands & thousands of people who just wanted to have a dance and party all night, and was too huge for the police to even attempt to break up!

happy days indeed, and something I was proud to be a part of!

:-)

[Arbitran]

Indeed, the notion that these religions—the monotheistic religions it seems more than any—peddle is simply asinine. An imaginary disease invented for the purpose of selling their snake oil, nothing more. An imaginary disease which is claimed to be intrinsic in all humans, and which only their particular brand of panacea is capable of curing. It's nonsense; and frankly the charlatanic peddlers of this idea of intrinsic guilt for arbitrary crimes are no better than the quack peddlers of radium or mercury from days past.

[shrooma]

I have been to a lot of festivals like that everybodys cool, never any trouble. I pull in people see I am disabled. I start pulling out my stuff next thing I know I'm in a chair with a drink and everybody is setting up my camp and starting dinner. I love hippies.

.

people are a lot more generous with their feelings than most people give them credit for darkwind. especially at events like that, where there is a real sense of community, everyone helping, and getting along with, their fellow man, unburdened by the guilt that religion places upon people.

'thou shalt not'??

they should try

'if it harms no-one, do what thou will'

for a change, it might teach them to not be so uptight all the bloody time!!

:-)

[shrooma]

Indeed, the notion that these religions—the monotheistic religions it seems more than any—peddle is simply asinine. An imaginary disease invented for the purpose of selling their snake oil, nothing more. An imaginary disease which is claimed to be intrinsic in all humans, and which only their particular brand of panacea is capable of curing. It's nonsense; and frankly the charlatanic peddlers of this idea of intrinsic guilt for arbitrary crimes are no better than the quack peddlers of radium or mercury from days past.

.

I must say arbitran, that for a post-singularitan hyperturing synthetic intelligence, you certainly know your stuff when it comes to us non-post-singularitan hyperturing synthetic intelligences!

:-)

[Bluefinger]

.

and to be even fairer blue, we weren't a civilisation, we were a society, as are all groups of people who reside side-by-side with each other, and I wasn't aware that size was a factor in this argument, merely that people were inherently evil, and couldn't be trusted to control their baser urges without the moderating influence of the church, whereas I was just pointing out that that isn't necessarily the case.....

most people are law-abiding, and have a sense of morality that doesn't necessarily stem from the church, so how can me, a non-believer (in organised religion), have more faith in my fellow man than you, a believer in a god who made us in his own image? do you doubt his creation's ability to fulfil his promise? it seems that way if you believe people are filled with evil and pride and hatred.

To address your question, I'm a lover of history. Despite all the technological advances in every civilization throughout history, all have either fallen completely or was reduced to a tiny state because of, primarily, the vices of people.

It's not that I don't have hope. It's just that I'm not naive about people. I've seen the good and bad. History shows that when the reigns are loosed, crime becomes the ruler.

Take Judea in 66 CE, Rome after 476, and France in 1789. Bloody, brutal, and crime riddled.

[Arbitran]

.

I must say arbitran, that for a post-singularitan hyperturing synthetic intelligence, you certainly know your stuff when it comes to us non-post-singularitan hyperturing synthetic intelligences!

:-)

Ha, well, thank you I suppose. It was the first thing that came to mind when I found my picture there.

[Arbitran]

To address your question, I'm a lover of history. Despite all the technological advances in every civilization throughout history, all have either fallen completely or was reduced to a tiny state because of, primarily, the vices of people.

It's not that I don't have hope. It's just that I'm not naive about people. I've seen the good and bad. History shows that when the reigns are loosed, crime becomes the ruler.

Take Judea in 66 CE, Rome after 476, and France in 1789. Bloody, brutal, and crime riddled.

Those are three rather... selective examples, to say the least. I hardly think that 'loosing the reigns' of the Zweiten und Dritten Reiche was detrimental to the peoples of Deutschland and the surrounding states. Nor did the loosening of restrictions in Japan—for instance, the former policy of isolationism—lead to crime and other assorted horrors; on the contrary, Japan remains one of the most crime-free nations on Earth.

[shrooma]

no doubt our civilisation will too blue, but I don't think we're ready for the fall JUST yet.

it seems that most conflict these days is motivated by religion, and to a lesser extent, greed, rather than our vices, because religion, by definition, is intolerant, whereas our vices only affect those in our general vicinity, as opposed to the global conflict that religion engenders.

[Grandpa Greenman]

.

people are a lot more generous with their feelings than most people give them credit for darkwind. especially at events like that, where there is a real sense of community, everyone helping, and getting along with, their fellow man, unburdened by the guilt that religion places upon people.

'thou shalt not'??

they should try

'if it harms no-one, do what thou will'

for a change, it might teach them to not be so uptight all the bloody time!!

:-)

While it is short, it much more complex a statement, than one would think, but I find it works fine for me.

[shrooma]

While it is short, it much more complex a statement, than one would think, but I find it works fine for me.

.

me too darkwind!

if you can live your life and be happy, without harming others, then there's no shame in that, and it's better to live by that as a code than be forced to live your life wracked by guilt because some semi-nomadic middle-eastern goatherder said 3000yrs ago that we're all worthless & must be punished!!

[Bluefinger]

Those are three rather... selective examples, to say the least. I hardly think that 'loosing the reigns' of the Zweiten und Dritten Reiche was detrimental to the peoples of Deutschland and the surrounding states. Nor did the loosening of restrictions in Japan—for instance, the former policy of isolationism—lead to crime and other assorted horrors; on the contrary, Japan remains one of the most crime-free nations on Earth.

'Tell you what. I'll ask a few questions and let's see if you answer me honestly.

If the American justice system collapsed, what would happen to America?

Remember, honestly.

I think that will prove my point.