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How we "love" nature


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Poll: I "love" nature (14 member(s) have cast votes)

Would you leave everything behind to save nature

  1. Yes. I would leave everything (every minute thing that makes my life easier), behind me just to save nature (2 votes [14.29%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 14.29%

  2. Maybe. I would leave some things behind, but not every. (4 votes [28.57%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 28.57%

  3. No. I understand my impact/fault on nature, but I'm trying to minimize adverse effects (not just hot air on the forums). (8 votes [57.14%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 57.14%

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#46    bmk1245

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 06:17 PM

View PostMikko-kun, on 08 May 2013 - 08:25 AM, said:

bmk, you too miss my point on purpose? Or is it that hard to get? If we've had a millions of years of history of eating natural foods without going extinct, us humans and all other species that now live, isn't it safe to assume there's a miniscule likelihood something would happen to break that continuum and that natural foods would kill us all, unless you have a reason to suspect otherwise.
[...]
Ok, let me try again. Here is the graph depicting dependency of body mass of herbivores vs feeding  area

Posted Image
(source: John Damuth, Nature 290, 699-700 (23 April 1981))
You can put your body mass on trend line (assuming your weight 60 kg, on x axis you'll have ~4.8), find log(D), raise 10 to that number, and you will have area needed to that number of "herbivore people" to meet their feeding requirements (number will be few "persons" per km2). For hunters-gatherers (humans) it can be from few to several km2 per person  Just for comparison, nowadays we have less than 2 acres of agricultural land  per person. You get my point?
BTW, what vegetables/fruits Suomies had, say, 500 years ago (besides berries)?


View PostMikko-kun, on 08 May 2013 - 08:25 AM, said:

[...]
And your experience about multiculture farming.. if you fail, does it mean you fail or that the system fails?
[...]
I did not said failure. If you convert man work hours were "wasted" on that gardening into $, with that amount of $ we would be able to buy more of the same vegetables/fruits (with all taxes and seller's overheads included).


View PostMikko-kun, on 08 May 2013 - 08:25 AM, said:

[...]
You said it yourself, non-organic, so why come tell us organic is a failure? Did you actually pick up any book about permaculture, read it and tried it? Mulch and poop, yes, and if you know something about multiculture farming you probably know the indicators of healthy soil. Can't blame you for not knowing about winter-warm greenhouses because they seem to be a rather new thing, but working. They would had helped you a lot. You know I'm coming from norther than you, snow's here longer than in your place, and people here have those kind of greenhouses too, a friend of mine knows one guy in my hometown 200km north from capital who grows pear trees inside those all-year greenhouses, says he makes an ok profit.
From what you say, it sounds like you picked the plants well, and didn't make the obvious mistakes but weeds management was your problem too. The most common thing, and it's hard when you have weeds that spread through airborne seeds. Fencing your lot with a more deep-grounded fence helps only with those that spread through their root system like bamboo, doesn't cut it in most cases in our area. It can help tho, because some of the seeds are bound to land on the fence. I'd need to read the book again to find what they suggested to this, something more sensible than this. One thing would be to plant a plant that kills the weeds in key positions, maybe tomato or pepper... peanuts dont usually tolerate our winter but one guy did have a whole lot of them in England. They'd manage in a greenhouse, not that it helps you much now, and their roots might kill most weeds.

Did you try to find any permanent solution to your weed problem? Did you test any other solutions to it than pesticides and pulling them up?
Let me clarify few things.
First of all, I didn't cared about gardening then (I was just a wetback, mule), nor do I care now (we sold that property 6 years ago). My grandfather was mastermind behind this, and he wasn't stranger to agriculture: his family owned ~30 hectares farm before WWII, he attended agricultural school, and he was gardening in place I'm talking about since 1953 (after long free trip to Siberia). More to that, he was subscribing pop-agricultural journals (were few of them in USSR).

Second, I must apologies for posting incorrect number - 0.5 acres. It was less than 0.15 acres (~6 ares). Retrieved wrong conversion multiplier from memory. Sorry.

Third, we had no problems with weed, cause grandfather was spending his whole days in the garden (when not fishing), so any weed was eliminated just after it showed his "head" to the sun. My post about beet weeding must have misled you, but that was very different story.

Fourth, we had two greenhouses - one for tomatoes/paprika, and one for cucumbers. Heating/illuminating those greenhouses in winter would have been complete waste of energy (greenhouses were wooden frame covered with polythene wrap... Once we built greenhouse using glass... Well, it lasted less than week before hooligans smashed almost all glass).

Fifth, grandfather was applying fertilizers conservatively, i.e. only when needed (well, "needed" just by appearance of the plants) and in lower quantities. Neighbor, who was growing only tomatoes for selling, was having bigger tomatoes and more per plant than we (same variety, got seeds from him, Oxheart in translation). Guess what, he was using more (in quantity) fertilizers.

Anyway, all that holistic, nature caring farming is not bad, but requires lots of hand work, and its not the solution for feeding growing population, Intensive farming (with long lasting consequences) ain't solution either. I'd say, let organic farmers to use synthetic fertilizers, or, for that matter, herbicides/pesticides when plants needed, just without overusing.

Arguing with fool is like playing chess with pigeon: he will scatter pieces, peck King's crown, crap on bishop, and fly away bragging how he won the game... (heard once, author unknown).
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#47    bmk1245

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 06:24 PM

View Postfreetoroam, on 08 May 2013 - 12:18 PM, said:

Ok, you convinced me.


View Postfreetoroam, on 08 May 2013 - 12:18 PM, said:

[...]
PS: I live on a boat...in relation to earlier post.
Do you flush erhmmm... poop... right into the water? I'm not very familiar with living (not just tripping) on the boat, so, can you enlighten me?

Arguing with fool is like playing chess with pigeon: he will scatter pieces, peck King's crown, crap on bishop, and fly away bragging how he won the game... (heard once, author unknown).
Zhoom! What was that? That was your life, Mate! Oh, that was quick. Do I get another? Sorry, Mate. That's your lot. Basil Fawlty (John Cleese).

#48    shrooma

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 07:56 PM

my carbon footprint is virtually non-existant, and there's nothing I can do to reduce it more. I don't own a car or watch tv, I walk everywhere I go and use a lamp with an energy-saving bulb for reading/drawing. all my food- meat & veg comes from surrounding farms not supermarkets, so there is zero transportation pollution. I spend most of my time in my heavily windowed loft conversion which lets in plenty of light all day, and year, round. I have my heating on low for 3mths a year-at most- and cook one meal a day, salads & sandwiches for the rest. I use my phone for the internet, not a computer, and the biggest energy expenditure you could attribute to me is my fridge, which has an A economy rating. I recycle the very little waste I produce, and the only things I can think of with less impact on the environment than me are owls.
it's not really difficult to have negligable impact if you think about it.
.
*edited to add*
which is why I won't be voting in your poll.

Edited by shrooma, 22 May 2013 - 07:58 PM.

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#49    Mikko-kun

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 11:11 PM

View Postbmk1245, on 22 May 2013 - 06:17 PM, said:

You can put your body mass on trend line (assuming your weight 60 kg, on x axis you'll have ~4.8), find log(D), raise 10 to that number, and you will have area needed to that number of "herbivore people" to meet their feeding requirements (number will be few "persons" per km2). For hunters-gatherers (humans) it can be from few to several km2 per person  Just for comparison, nowadays we have less than 2 acres of agricultural land  per person. You get my point?
BTW, what vegetables/fruits Suomies had, say, 500 years ago (besides berries)?


I did not said failure. If you convert man work hours were "wasted" on that gardening into $, with that amount of $ we would be able to buy more of the same vegetables/fruits (with all taxes and seller's overheads included).

You're right about the land amounts, herbivore humans need less land because cattle takes more land. I'm pretty sure we didn't have carrot and potato before Columbus, dont know about tomato's history but... Lanttu, turnip in english I think, and cabbage. Turnip is a root so you can preserve it over-winter in vinegar. Cellery... a lot of ones I dont know of, probably. Those are the domesticated plants. Spinach, if it survives in our climate, I think it does. A lot of things dont survive in lapland, but that sweet yellow berry does, and they've always had ten times the reindeers than they have people there so that part of our country has been pretty self-sufficient as far as I know.

I'm sorry vandals did in your greenhouse. Heating your house and having fruit trees isn't probably so challenging in your climate, you could probably have mulberries without greenhouses, we can too in our southernmost latitutes if you choose a cold-resistant strain, supposedly. But those trees dont grow here in nature as far as I know, dont know if plums do either though we have those in outdoor gardens at least, without greenhouses and all. Also apples. I dont know if we had apples 500 years ago, dont think we had plums back then at least, maybe some rich folks had a tree or few.

But if I get it right what you try to say between the lines, is that today we're better off in terms of needing less agricultural land per person. Maybe so, but that in no ways makes permaculture a worse option. Because permaculture wasn't used by a lot of people, especially not europeans as far as I know, not in major scale at the very very least. Most had fields, and I've read of europeans who went into these indigenous people's lands in other continents like Africa and Asia and said "what the duck man, why you fools farm like in a jungle? Put an organized neat crop like we white men do!" and thrashed their natural-farming gardens and put there instead their plowed fields, "educating" them on "real farming"...

The thing with permaculture is, you can get it wrong, and probably will, and probably more than once. You need to have a lot of things right, but just the basics still. Because you have something wrong there, crops dont grow so well. If your plants dont get fertilized enough = lack of nitrogen at least, more legumes and comfrey and mulch it. But you also need healthy soil = enough worms and insects there that break the leaves and poop and convert it to forms more suitable for plants to get them with their roots. If you kill the insects and worms with pesticides, then you should also use fertilizer, because the plants dont get so much nutrients thanks to pesticides.

I've been born again 31,8,2014 approximately 21:35 local time. A moment free of clutter in the mind, emancipating myself like an escapist, allowing myself to breathe life in a stronger, less physical level... though it does resonate to physical world. It's the oomph.

#50    bmk1245

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 08:30 AM

View Postshrooma, on 22 May 2013 - 07:56 PM, said:

my carbon footprint is virtually non-existant, and there's nothing I can do to reduce it more. I don't own a car or watch tv, I walk everywhere I go and use a lamp with an energy-saving bulb for reading/drawing. all my food- meat & veg comes from surrounding farms not supermarkets, so there is zero transportation pollution. I spend most of my time in my heavily windowed loft conversion which lets in plenty of light all day, and year, round. I have my heating on low for 3mths a year-at most- and cook one meal a day, salads & sandwiches for the rest. I use my phone for the internet, not a computer, and the biggest energy expenditure you could attribute to me is my fridge, which has an A economy rating. I recycle the very little waste I produce, and the only things I can think of with less impact on the environment than me are owls.
it's not really difficult to have negligable impact if you think about it.
.
*edited to add*
which is why I won't be voting in your poll.
Good.
But you forgot that maintaining all infrastructure and making your daily things takes lots of energy (building your loft, pavement you walk, your clothes, spoon, etc, etc, etc, etc). In comparison with some African family who live primitive life (without electricity, tap water, etc), your carbon footprint is huge.
BTW, what about shower? And you do use washing machine, don't you? Forgot that?

Arguing with fool is like playing chess with pigeon: he will scatter pieces, peck King's crown, crap on bishop, and fly away bragging how he won the game... (heard once, author unknown).
Zhoom! What was that? That was your life, Mate! Oh, that was quick. Do I get another? Sorry, Mate. That's your lot. Basil Fawlty (John Cleese).

#51    shrooma

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 08:42 AM

View Postbmk1245, on 23 May 2013 - 08:30 AM, said:

Good.
But you forgot that maintaining all infrastructure and making your daily things takes lots of energy (building your loft, pavement you walk, your clothes, spoon, etc, etc, etc, etc). In comparison with some African family who live primitive life (without electricity, tap water, etc), your carbon footprint is huge.
BTW, what about shower? And you do use washing machine, don't you? Forgot that?
.
so, by your rationale, we all should go back to eating raw meat & sleeping in trees then?
didn't realise this thread was in the 'joke' section.
my mistake.

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if you fail to grasp the sublety, then don't whine on like a mardy-arsed
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#52    freetoroam

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 09:32 AM

View Postbmk1245, on 22 May 2013 - 06:24 PM, said:

Ok, you convinced me.


Do you flush erhmmm... poop... right into the water? I'm not very familiar with living (not just tripping) on the boat, so, can you enlighten me?
Haha, absolute no way. Anyone who does that should be arrested and would be reported by the other boaters. All waste goes to a pump out which goes to the sewers.

In an ideal World a law would be passed were NO guns were allowed and all those out there destroyed, trouble is the law makers are not going to take a risk of trying to pass that without making sure they are armed first.

#53    bmk1245

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 09:43 AM

View PostMikko-kun, on 22 May 2013 - 11:11 PM, said:

You're right about the land amounts, herbivore humans need less land because cattle takes more land. I'm pretty sure we didn't have carrot and potato before Columbus, dont know about tomato's history but... Lanttu, turnip in english I think, and cabbage. Turnip is a root so you can preserve it over-winter in vinegar. Cellery... a lot of ones I dont know of, probably. Those are the domesticated plants. Spinach, if it survives in our climate, I think it does. A lot of things dont survive in lapland, but that sweet yellow berry does, and they've always had ten times the reindeers than they have people there so that part of our country has been pretty self-sufficient as far as I know.
[...]
Sadly, we aren't herbivores, so we need more land to survive (without farming).

View PostMikko-kun, on 22 May 2013 - 11:11 PM, said:

[...]
I'm sorry vandals did in your greenhouse. Heating your house and having fruit trees isn't probably so challenging in your climate, you could probably have mulberries without greenhouses, we can too in our southernmost latitutes if you choose a cold-resistant strain, supposedly. But those trees dont grow here in nature as far as I know, dont know if plums do either though we have those in outdoor gardens at least, without greenhouses and all. Also apples. I dont know if we had apples 500 years ago, dont think we had plums back then at least, maybe some rich folks had a tree or few.
[...]
While yeah, growing apples, cherries, and some other fruits isn't that challenging, but there are more demanding plants.  We have temperatures in winter down to -30C and below, and sometimes we have frosts as early as September, and even in May/June.

View PostMikko-kun, on 22 May 2013 - 11:11 PM, said:

[...]
But if I get it right what you try to say between the lines, is that today we're better off in terms of needing less agricultural land per person. Maybe so, but that in no ways makes permaculture a worse option. Because permaculture wasn't used by a lot of people, especially not europeans as far as I know, not in major scale at the very very least. Most had fields, and I've read of europeans who went into these indigenous people's lands in other continents like Africa and Asia and said "what the duck man, why you fools farm like in a jungle? Put an organized neat crop like we white men do!" and thrashed their natural-farming gardens and put there instead their plowed fields, "educating" them on "real farming"...
[...]
But, for example, India became self sufficient only after "green revolution" (with all negative impacts).

View PostMikko-kun, on 22 May 2013 - 11:11 PM, said:

[...]
The thing with permaculture is, you can get it wrong, and probably will, and probably more than once. You need to have a lot of things right, but just the basics still. Because you have something wrong there, crops dont grow so well. If your plants dont get fertilized enough = lack of nitrogen at least, more legumes and comfrey and mulch it. But you also need healthy soil = enough worms and insects there that break the leaves and poop and convert it to forms more suitable for plants to get them with their roots. If you kill the insects and worms with pesticides, then you should also use fertilizer, because the plants dont get so much nutrients thanks to pesticides.
Different plants require different macro/micronutrients soil can be lacking of. So, while yes, nitrogen deficiency can be solved as you said, other "stuff" can be brought only with synthetic fertilizers.

Arguing with fool is like playing chess with pigeon: he will scatter pieces, peck King's crown, crap on bishop, and fly away bragging how he won the game... (heard once, author unknown).
Zhoom! What was that? That was your life, Mate! Oh, that was quick. Do I get another? Sorry, Mate. That's your lot. Basil Fawlty (John Cleese).

#54    bmk1245

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 09:45 AM

View Postshrooma, on 23 May 2013 - 08:42 AM, said:

.
so, by your rationale, we all should go back to eating raw meat & sleeping in trees then?
didn't realise this thread was in the 'joke' section.
my mistake.
That was response to your "my carbon footprint is virtually non-existant".

View Postfreetoroam, on 23 May 2013 - 09:32 AM, said:

Haha, absolute no way. Anyone who does that should be arrested and would be reported by the other boaters. All waste goes to a pump out which goes to the sewers.
Ok, thanks for clarification.

Arguing with fool is like playing chess with pigeon: he will scatter pieces, peck King's crown, crap on bishop, and fly away bragging how he won the game... (heard once, author unknown).
Zhoom! What was that? That was your life, Mate! Oh, that was quick. Do I get another? Sorry, Mate. That's your lot. Basil Fawlty (John Cleese).

#55    shrooma

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 10:41 AM

View Postbmk1245, on 23 May 2013 - 09:45 AM, said:

That was response to your "my carbon footprint is virtually non-existant".

.
well, try & keep your responses grounded in reality eh, bmk?
compared to most people, ie.- people who don't live in the sudan, or who eat raw meat & sleep in trees, my carbon footprint IS virtually non-existant, or are you suggesting I take my clothes down to the river and beat them on rocks to wash them? or stand naked in the rain perform my ablutions?
next you'll be wanting me to wipe my ass on leaves to help combat global warming I suppose?
pretty rich coming from a guy who licks his plates clean because he won't give up his computer.....

- - - - -disclaimer- - - - -    
all posts- without exception- are humourous.
if you fail to grasp the sublety, then don't whine on like a mardy-arsed
bĦt˘h due to your lack of understanding.

#56    bmk1245

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 11:37 AM

View Postshrooma, on 23 May 2013 - 10:41 AM, said:

.
well, try & keep your responses grounded in reality eh, bmk?
compared to most people, ie.- people who don't live in the sudan, or who eat raw meat & sleep in trees, my carbon footprint IS virtually non-existant, or are you suggesting I take my clothes down to the river and beat them on rocks to wash them? or stand naked in the rain perform my ablutions?
next you'll be wanting me to wipe my ass on leaves to help combat global warming I suppose?
[...]
Why not? Would be a good start... :rolleyes:

View Postshrooma, on 23 May 2013 - 10:41 AM, said:

[...]
pretty rich coming from a guy who licks his plates clean because he won't give up his computer.....
Try to run simulation software on your phone, when it takes more than week just single run on OC'ed i7-3930K (up to 4.3GHz) and consumes almost all of 64GB RAM installed...

Arguing with fool is like playing chess with pigeon: he will scatter pieces, peck King's crown, crap on bishop, and fly away bragging how he won the game... (heard once, author unknown).
Zhoom! What was that? That was your life, Mate! Oh, that was quick. Do I get another? Sorry, Mate. That's your lot. Basil Fawlty (John Cleese).

#57    Mikko-kun

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 12:55 PM

The amount of land needed for surviving isn't only dependant on past statistics nor only on past farming techniques, but also on how we develop them in the future and now. That's my response to saying that we need this and this amount of land to sustain people, omnivore people not herbivore. Because the more green you're able to grow, the more feed you got for the animals. There's a farm in England of which's name I dont remember but they handled the grass pretty well there, 20 different species of grass. Allowed cows to graze longer on them before going to shelter for the winter, and the grass didn't break so easily under cow hooves and there was plenty of it compared to the amount of land they used for cow grazing. It was in the document "A Farm for the Future".

However, not letting animals go out and walk and exercise will result in them having less and less muscle tissue because they dont need that tissue anymore. And it's that muscle tissue of theirs that we need. So in order to maintain the amount of meat in animals, we let them go out and do their things. It's a long-term thing, you dont see it in a generation or two, but we evolve the way we live. If you're from a family of drinkers, you'll be more likely to drink too. If you're from a family of sportspeople, you'll be more likely to do sports too. The generational thing is because of habits and because a part of it goes into our genes as a mutation which occurs due to our continuous attempt to adapt.

View Postbmk1245, on 23 May 2013 - 09:43 AM, said:

But, for example, India became self sufficient only after "green revolution" (with all negative impacts).

Different plants require different macro/micronutrients soil can be lacking of. So, while yes, nitrogen deficiency can be solved as you said, other "stuff" can be brought only with synthetic fertilizers.

Yeah, India is a land of drought, I'm not fully aware of all it's conditions but drought and excess heat seem to be the main problems, along with unforgiving wind in flat areas if there's flat area problems. Green revolution there.. yeah, european-style farming of neat tidy fields. The problem with plowing-farming is that you need more nutrients because you exhaust the soil faster, and there's no automated replenishment system for nutrients in plow-farming, because you kill it with plowing and toxins. Forests and non-human grown plants keep growing because they have that naturally nutrient-replenishing system. The problem with toxins and plowing is, you become addicted to them and can't stop unless you want to have no crops. If there was no other way, then okay, nothing we could do, but there is another way. I think that the main disadvantage with the other way, multiculture and free animals, is that the animals are free unlike in industrial farming, and take more space. That's a disadvantage in terms of space usage. But an advantage in ethical farming, in farming that oppresses the animals less.
It's like a rehab from drugs when you stop using pesticides, you have side-effects, symptoms of withdrawal. The pests come in at first and wreak havoc on your crops. The first wave of anti-pest predators comes in and wipes out the pests. The corpses of pests as well as the poop of everything that's there from insects to birds to other things that weren't formerly so supported by the plowing-system, come there and contribute. You need to support that. Rats may come and eat your carrots and turnips and whatnot, not onions though probably nor anything in trees, as I've not seen rats climb high yet though wouldn't be surprised. That's what squirrels do. And when rats and other bigger pests have wreaked havoc on your crops for some time, carnivore birds like hawks and owls come, as well as foxes or any animals that eat rats. Eventually they notice this place where there's an abundance of rats and come get some. And if you let a good part of the rats survive those carnivores will keep watch over your garden for you. Maybe you even get a nearby bear to visit your garden at times and maybe that bear can scare off some vandals in the best case. Or you... but that's the basic idea. It isn't done in a day, not in a year, and definetely not when you keep using toxins. The soil is exhausted if it cannot replenish, and when you take away the natural way of replenishing soil by applying toxins and by plowing, you need to fertilize much more or else it's no or small crops for you. Plowing is done to keep the soil airy for one, but if there's a lot of worms and even mices and rats and rodents, the soil will definitely keep airy when they dig around.

I can't see why it's not the thing of the future if it works and if it's a less laborous and just as productive a system. And nothing you say has convinced me it wouldn't work, not even close.

Synthetic fertilizers are derived from nature and what's in there, from stones and living organisms and what they leave behind. And plants have grown before human was here with them, so you do get them from other sources than just synthetic fertilizers no matter what you'd like to believe. It's just a matter of how and where you get them from. It's so logical there's nothing you can counter this with. Rainforests, anything, do they grow on synthetic fertilizers? All the plants we farm today have natural origins. Did they grow on synthetic fertilizer before we started to farm them? No.

I've been born again 31,8,2014 approximately 21:35 local time. A moment free of clutter in the mind, emancipating myself like an escapist, allowing myself to breathe life in a stronger, less physical level... though it does resonate to physical world. It's the oomph.

#58    Mikko-kun

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 01:04 PM

And long story short, I manage to keep a strong belief to it working because of this guy in England who "got the grass right" in his farm before he died, the guy in the document farm for the future, with those 20 grass species. It took him a lifetime of work to just get the grass right, but once you get it right it's there and no one's gonna take it from you (hopefully). Use that logic to all the other plants and we may still be ways off from perfecting the system, but that's what needs to be done if you want to have a better system and not poison the nature.

Also, any argument that this natural toxinless low-to-none fertilizing multiculture (permaculture) would take more space than the kind of farming we have today, seems pretty invalid to me when you look at the big picture. Big picture of the current farming, you can see it in the document I mentioned, but I'll say it. We process a lot of food, and those processings happen in factories. Factories take space. Trucks that deliver food to supermarkets take space. Supermarkets take space. Cars we need to go to supermarkets need space. Automobile factories that are required to just keep the car industry needed to support the food industry alone, need space. Those who repair those cars, need space. Those who get the fuel for those cars and refine the fuel, need space. Those who manufacture the plastic containers, need space. Those who manufacture the toxins, need a whole lot of space, both for the factories and for the places you get the raw material from. And they too need cars and need to feed their employers. Yeah... not very independent food industry we have today.

The steps of development it has taken are good by themselves, but it seems pretty misguided when it's organized like that. As inefficiently as possible, yet painted a picture of efficiency to it. What if we'd just grow the food locally and store it locally? Can happen in cold countries too with winter-greenhouses (and keep the vandals off with death penalty, no mercy if you puck with my food).

It's not about what who couldn't do, but that there's even one shed of light (this guy who got the grass right for example) to have a better way to all this. Whenever you buy minced meat from shop, do you ever stop to think how much work it took to get it there from scratch? I dont, even after watching the document, but it gave me something to think.

Edited by Mikko-kun, 23 May 2013 - 01:07 PM.

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#59    shrooma

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 02:19 AM

View Postbmk1245, on 23 May 2013 - 11:37 AM, said:

Why not? Would be a good start... :rolleyes:
:-)

Try to run simulation software on your phone, when it takes more than week just single run on OC'ed i7-3930K (up to 4.3GHz) and consumes almost all of 64GB RAM installed...
???!

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#60    bmk1245

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 09:52 AM

View PostMikko-kun, on 23 May 2013 - 12:55 PM, said:

The amount of land needed for surviving isn't only dependant on past statistics nor only on past farming techniques, but also on how we develop them in the future and now. That's my response to saying that we need this and this amount of land to sustain people, omnivore people not herbivore. Because the more green you're able to grow, the more feed you got for the animals. There's a farm in England of which's name I dont remember but they handled the grass pretty well there, 20 different species of grass. Allowed cows to graze longer on them before going to shelter for the winter, and the grass didn't break so easily under cow hooves and there was plenty of it compared to the amount of land they used for cow grazing. It was in the document "A Farm for the Future".
[...]
Question is: how many cows were grazing that land (or "persons" per acre)?

View PostMikko-kun, on 23 May 2013 - 12:55 PM, said:

[...]
However, not letting animals go out and walk and exercise will result in them having less and less muscle tissue because they dont need that tissue anymore. And it's that muscle tissue of theirs that we need. So in order to maintain the amount of meat in animals, we let them go out and do their things. It's a long-term thing, you dont see it in a generation or two, but we evolve the way we live. If you're from a family of drinkers, you'll be more likely to drink too. If you're from a family of sportspeople, you'll be more likely to do sports too. The generational thing is because of habits and because a part of it goes into our genes as a mutation which occurs due to our continuous attempt to adapt.
[...]
Yeah, but you still have to have backup plan. Drought, and you cattle will starve to death on the field, quite naturally.

View PostMikko-kun, on 23 May 2013 - 12:55 PM, said:

[...]
Yeah, India is a land of drought, I'm not fully aware of all it's conditions but drought and excess heat seem to be the main problems, along with unforgiving wind in flat areas if there's flat area problems. Green revolution there.. yeah, european-style farming of neat tidy fields. The problem with plowing-farming is that you need more nutrients because you exhaust the soil faster, and there's no automated replenishment system for nutrients in plow-farming, because you kill it with plowing and toxins. Forests and non-human grown plants keep growing because they have that naturally nutrient-replenishing system. [...]
You can make an experiment: find decent forest, and live on one acre of forest for, say, 3 months. I can guarantee, that after the first week you'll "I wanna go home..."

View PostMikko-kun, on 23 May 2013 - 12:55 PM, said:

[...] The problem with toxins and plowing is, you become addicted to them and can't stop unless you want to have no crops. If there was no other way, then okay, nothing we could do, but there is another way. I think that the main disadvantage with the other way, multiculture and free animals, is that the animals are free unlike in industrial farming, and take more space. That's a disadvantage in terms of space usage. But an advantage in ethical farming, in farming that oppresses the animals less.
[...]
"become addicted"?! Everything what was developed for agriculture is for better yields, and less laborious work.

View PostMikko-kun, on 23 May 2013 - 12:55 PM, said:

[...]
It's like a rehab from drugs when you stop using pesticides, you have side-effects, symptoms of withdrawal. The pests come in at first and wreak havoc on your crops. The first wave of anti-pest predators comes in and wipes out the pests. The corpses of pests as well as the poop of everything that's there from insects to birds to other things that weren't formerly so supported by the plowing-system, come there and contribute. You need to support that. Rats may come and eat your carrots and turnips and whatnot, not onions though probably nor anything in trees, as I've not seen rats climb high yet though wouldn't be surprised. That's what squirrels do. And when rats and other bigger pests have wreaked havoc on your crops for some time, carnivore birds like hawks and owls come, as well as foxes or any animals that eat rats. Eventually they notice this place where there's an abundance of rats and come get some. And if you let a good part of the rats survive those carnivores will keep watch over your garden for you. Maybe you even get a nearby bear to visit your garden at times and maybe that bear can scare off some vandals in the best case. Or you... but that's the basic idea. It isn't done in a day, not in a year, and definetely not when you keep using toxins. The soil is exhausted if it cannot replenish, and when you take away the natural way of replenishing soil by applying toxins and by plowing, you need to fertilize much more or else it's no or small crops for you. Plowing is done to keep the soil airy for one, but if there's a lot of worms and even mices and rats and rodents, the soil will definitely keep airy when they dig around.
[...]
And after that havoc you don't care what happens next, cause you dead by starving (yeah, pests can destroy your field entirely, i.e. 100% loss). And, I bet, all those "organic" farmers are benefiting from use of pesticides on surrounding non-"organic" areas - pests simply have no way to spread over the larger areas.

View PostMikko-kun, on 23 May 2013 - 12:55 PM, said:

[...]
I can't see why it's not the thing of the future if it works and if it's a less laborous and just as productive a system. And nothing you say has convinced me it wouldn't work, not even close.
[...]
"less laborous"? I beg to differ. Consuming less energy? Yes. Less laborious? :no:

View PostMikko-kun, on 23 May 2013 - 12:55 PM, said:

[...]
Synthetic fertilizers are derived from nature and what's in there, from stones and living organisms and what they leave behind. And plants have grown before human was here with them, so you do get them from other sources than just synthetic fertilizers no matter what you'd like to believe. It's just a matter of how and where you get them from. It's so logical there's nothing you can counter this with. Rainforests, anything, do they grow on synthetic fertilizers? All the plants we farm today have natural origins. Did they grow on synthetic fertilizer before we started to farm them? No.
Try to grow plants which require different soil content (for example, try to grow bananas in your garden/greenhouse, in Suomiland), and you'll see your "success".

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