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Unexplained reflection in astronauts visor


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#16    Ashigaru

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Posted 15 January 2007 - 10:09 AM

The sites owners and moderators decide what can and can't be posted here not the country you live in. They can even ban you just because they don't like you.

The only shadows I see are those of the astronauts.

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#17    Waspie_Dwarf

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Posted 15 January 2007 - 10:18 AM

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WaspieDwarf, first of all the title of the topic I posted is "Unexplained reflection in astronauts visor MAY be proof of a hoax".  Nowhere did I ever say anything about it being "facts".

Actually in your original post you didn't say anything at all, which is not a good way to start a discussion. However it was your choice to us the word "proof" in the title. Proof requires facts not opinion so you were making a claim of fact. Some definitions from the Oxford English Dictionary to help you understand the concept of proof:

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proof - n. evidence proving that something is true.


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evidence - n. information indicating whether something is true or valid.


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information - n. facts or knowledge provided or learned.



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After ripping me for stating my opinions,

I did not rip you apart. I demonstrated that your evidence was flawed. Personal attacks are not allowed on this forum The only personal attack made so far in this thread has been by you against Redtail and that was because you didn't check the facts.

QUOTE(Snozzberry @ Jan 15 2007, 09:22 AM) View Post
it is a free country by the way,

Good for you, so is mine. However here you are governed by the forum rules. Those rules include this one:

QUOTE
6. No flaming, flame baiting, mocking, verbal abuse or trolling
Members who derail topics with flaming, trolling, deliberate misquoting or the instigation of  'flame wars' will be removed from the forum. We ask that members stay open minded about opposing viewpoints. Don't ask for other people's opinions on something if the only opinion that matters to you is your own. Similarly, avoid being offensive towards other members that you disagree with; attack the viewpoint being presented, not the person who holds that view. Claiming that you 'know' you are right about something and that everyone who disagrees with you is 'ignorant' achieves nothing and is a close minded mentality that we strongly discourage in threads


I am not accusing you of "flaming, flame baiting, mocking, verbal abuse or trolling" but I would draw your attention to the sentence I have highlighted, "Don't ask for other people's opinions on something if the only opinion that matters to you is your own." In other words you are free to express your opinions but others are free to challenge them.

QUOTE(Snozzberry @ Jan 15 2007, 09:22 AM) View Post
you go on to state that it is your opinion that it is a smudge.


No, I went on to state that it my opinion it wasn't a smudge. And yes I was differentiating between opinion and fact, something you failed to do.

QUOTE(Snozzberry @ Jan 15 2007, 09:22 AM) View Post
And yes there is still what appears to possibly be a shadow even in your high quality pic.


Where?

I have taken an even tighter crop of the area you are claiming contains a shadow. I have enlarged it and slightly sharpened the image:
linked-image

So where is this shadow. I see an astronaut, but if the darker area in that picture is a shadow then it has formed in mid-air and shadows can't do that. (Yes I know there is no air on the moon, it's a figure of speech).


"Space is big. Really big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind-boggingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the street to the chemist, but that's just peanuts to space." - The Hitch-Hikers Guide to the Galaxy - Douglas Adams 1952 - 2001

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#18    postbaguk

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Posted 15 January 2007 - 10:18 AM

Further evidence in favour of the "smudge camp" can be found here and http://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a12/AS12-48-7134HR.jpg. These are two consecutive images, as12-48-7133 and 7134. You can see the same artefact on the visor, same size, same shape, same position. Highly unlikely for it to be a reflection in that case.

Maximise both images I've linked to, and centralise the helmet on the screen. Slowly swap from one to the other and back again. You can see for yourself that the artefact stays in the same position, doesn't change size or shape. Compare this with the row of dots near the upper rim of the helmet - they DO move slightly between images. Either they are a reflection of an object, or it's specular reflection off scracthes on the helmet. Re-visiting this image, I'm not certain at the moment what is causing this. (EDIT - possibly some other optical effect).

Incidentally, can someone show me where the alleged shadow cast by the artefact is in the initial image under discussion?

Cheers

Edited by postbaguk, 15 January 2007 - 10:20 AM.


#19    Waspie_Dwarf

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Posted 15 January 2007 - 10:20 AM

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The sites owners and moderators decide what can and can't be posted here not the country you live in. They can even ban you just because they don't like you.


Actually we moderators also have to follow rules. These include when we can and can't suspend someone. To be suspended (or banned which only the site administrator can do) someone has to break the rules.

Anyway, back on topic.

"Space is big. Really big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind-boggingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the street to the chemist, but that's just peanuts to space." - The Hitch-Hikers Guide to the Galaxy - Douglas Adams 1952 - 2001

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#20    Ashigaru

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Posted 15 January 2007 - 10:22 AM

I think he's talking about that dark spot on the chest of whoever that is. It would take some odd lighting to get those results for the shadows. I don't even think it's possible. The astronauts shadows are going slightly up an to the left but that dark spot would be sharply down and to the left from the smudge or whatever.

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To be suspended (or banned which only the site administrator can do) someone has to break the rules.
Not if the admins are pretty liberal with the rules.

Edited by Ashigaru, 15 January 2007 - 10:25 AM.

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#21    postbaguk

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Posted 15 January 2007 - 10:31 AM

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I think he's talking about that dark spot on the chest of whoever that is. It would take some odd lighting to get those results for the shadows. I don't even think it's possible. The astronauts shadows are going slightly up an to the left but that dark spot would be sharply down and to the left from the smudge or whatever.


I see it now, but can't fathom how it could be a shadow cast by the artefact - some strange geometry would be involved. Especially when you look at where the main light source is reflecting on the helmet. A far more satisfactory explanation is MID's - it's just the shadow where the astronauts arm would be when he was operating the camera.

EDIT - typo change "can" to "can't" - sentence makes sense now! And change Waspie to MID.

Edited by postbaguk, 15 January 2007 - 11:11 AM.


#22    Waspie_Dwarf

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Posted 15 January 2007 - 10:43 AM

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Not if the admins are pretty liberal with the rules.


We can't be that strict, one of the rules is:

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13. Please respect the decisions of the moderators
Topics and posts questioning or criticising a moderator's decision will be removed, these decisions are not up for public debate. If you wish to appeal a decision then you have the right to contact a moderator or administrator about any action that has been taken on your account. Attempts to circumvent a restriction imposed on your account by registering another account will be met with further action taken against both accounts.


and yet your posts are still here.

Now for a second time (and this is a moderators decision) let's get back on topic.

"Space is big. Really big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind-boggingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the street to the chemist, but that's just peanuts to space." - The Hitch-Hikers Guide to the Galaxy - Douglas Adams 1952 - 2001

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#23    Mentalcase

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Posted 15 January 2007 - 10:57 AM

It kinda looks like he is holding something dark in his right arm. Because the "shadow" does indeed cast on some of his body as well.

I was just looking at the sun in both pics (Al & Pete), it seems like the shadows don't even match up correctly. I got confused trying to explain what I mean. I think the mirrored images might be playing a trick on my eyes.


MC

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#24    Snozzberry

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Posted 15 January 2007 - 12:28 PM

Thank you for the refernces to the Oxford dictionary. Although I did already know that proof requires facts. But you see where you messed up is how I said MAY BE proof of a hoax, and here is the definition of may according to the Oxford dictionary......May- modal verb (3rd sing. present may; past might) 1 expressing possibility.  Possibility of course meaning not certain, or not for a fact. It may be proof of a hoax, now if I had typed "is proof of a hoax" you might actually have a case here. Amazing how two little words can change the entire meaning of a sentence. You see a smudge, I see the possibility of an object being reflected. And please tell me, if the dark area in the photo is not a shadow, than what is it?? You have given no explanation as to what it could be or what caused it. So basically what you are saying is, you don't know what it is, but its definitely not a shadow. And the object, in your opinion, could be a smudge. Even though it does not appear on the visor in any pictures taken afterward.

Edited by Snozzberry, 15 January 2007 - 12:29 PM.

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#25    Waspie_Dwarf

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Posted 15 January 2007 - 01:13 PM

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Thank you for the refernces to the Oxford dictionary. Although I did already know that proof requires facts. But you see where you messed up is how I said MAY BE proof of a hoax, and here is the definition of may according to the Oxford dictionary......May- modal verb (3rd sing. present may; past might) 1 expressing possibility.

Hence the meaning of your sentence being "possible proof" how does that change anything? If you are putting this picture forward as possible proof you are, by definition, presenting it as evidence.

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And please tell me, if the dark area in the photo is not a shadow, than what is it?? You have given no explanation as to what it could be or what caused it. So basically what you are saying is, you don't know what it is, but its definitely not a shadow. And the object, in your opinion, could be a smudge. Even though it does not appear on the visor in any pictures taken afterward.
I do not need to prove what the dark patch is. This is your hypothesis and so the burden of proof is on you. I, on the other hand only have to demonstrate that it isn't what you say it is for your hypothesis to fail, that is the way these things work.

QUOTE(Snozzberry @ Jan 15 2007, 12:28 PM) View Post
Even though it does not appear on the visor in any pictures taken afterward.
This is simply wrong as postbaguk has already shown (read his post above). In at least two later photographs there is a mark on the visor in exactly the same place as your artef
S12-48-7134, showing the mark (circled in red) which you claim does not exist on any other photograph.

linked-image

"Space is big. Really big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind-boggingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the street to the chemist, but that's just peanuts to space." - The Hitch-Hikers Guide to the Galaxy - Douglas Adams 1952 - 2001

Posted Image
Click on button

#26    Ashigaru

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Posted 15 January 2007 - 01:13 PM

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I was just looking at the sun in both pics (Al & Pete), it seems like the shadows don't even match up correctly. I got confused trying to explain what I mean. I think the mirrored images might be playing a trick on my eyes.

MC
It's a reflection off a curved surface, it obviously won't match up perfectly.

Posted Image


#27    postbaguk

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Posted 15 January 2007 - 01:19 PM

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And the object, in your opinion, could be a smudge. Even though it does not appear on the visor in any pictures taken afterward.


Incorrect - IMHO.

I've already given links to two photos where the artefact appears. You can also see it in this photo:- http://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a12/AS12-48-7074HR.jpg

Which visor pictures are you referring to in which it isn't visible?

Thanks

Edited by postbaguk, 15 January 2007 - 01:20 PM.


#28    MID

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Posted 15 January 2007 - 10:45 PM

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It kinda looks like he is holding something dark in his right arm. Because the "shadow" does indeed cast on some of his body as well.

I was just looking at the sun in both pics (Al & Pete), it seems like the shadows don't even match up correctly. I got confused trying to explain what I mean. I think the mirrored images might be playing a trick on my eyes.
MC



Here's what we do:


Look at the two pictures I posted previously, the original of Pete, which shows Al in his faceplate with that shadow appearing to the viewer's left:

linked-image


That little shadow in the guy in Pete's hat, at around chest level, is the thing that the OP illustrated as the "artifact shadow".  


Now, take this picture, which is of the little guy in that hat...standing in exactly the place where he is in that hat (it was taken within seconds of the photo above:

linked-image


Now, take this second picture, print it out, go over to a mirror and hold it up.
You'll be seeing almost exactly what's in Pete's visor.

Just imagine the right arm of Al up holding the camera , and aiming it at Pete.  You'll clearly see where the shadow should, and does appear in Pete's visor.
In fact, the shadow is mostly there even in this picture.


It is not "artifact shadow", it is simply the shadow of the camera and Al's arm.

As to the Artifact itself, obviously it appears in other shots.  It's not a mysterious object.  It is very likely a smudge of dirt which arrived on Pete's hat due to one of two reasons:

1) Note that Pete's side shields are extended in the picture.  He probably smudged his faceplate deploying the left shield.

2) Pete tried to scratch his head, and of course wound up scratching his visor  (this is entirely plausible knowing the nature of Pete Conrad!!! grin2.gif ).




#29    louie

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Posted 04 February 2007 - 06:22 PM

yeah im with ya now. heres a picture i found...

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#30    MID

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Posted 05 February 2007 - 12:10 AM

no.gif

Hey, don't put that stuff up here....you're giving the whole conspiracy away!

wink2.gif





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