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#31    redhen

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 06:20 PM

View Postme-wonders, on 09 December 2012 - 05:19 PM, said:

Do different races of humans have different character traits.  Was Hitler right in his goal for a superior race?  

People with different ancestry (race) exhibit different physical and genetic traits, not character traits. Differences in character, intelligence, Hitler, eugenics these are all ideological concepts. They have nothing to do with science.


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Your belief that you are defending science from Marxist is most interesting.  Are you perhaps Fascist?   Your political concern seems to go outside the purely scientific realm, but I don't think a fascist would be aware of this, because of the education that created a blindness and instilled a sense of superiority.

I don't label myself, I define myself as a large mammal, specifically an ape. Political correctness has slowed the progress of science. A prime example is Kennewick man. This 9,000 year old North American skeleton with Caucasoid features is unavailable for research because the local Indian tribe refuses to permit it, and wants it buried back in the ground asap.


#32    me-wonders

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 06:51 PM

View Postredhen, on 09 December 2012 - 06:20 PM, said:

People with different ancestry (race) exhibit different physical and genetic traits, not character traits. Differences in character, intelligence, Hitler, eugenics these are all ideological concepts. They have nothing to do with science.




I don't label myself, I define myself as a large mammal, specifically an ape. Political correctness has slowed the progress of science. A prime example is Kennewick man. This 9,000 year old North American skeleton with Caucasoid features is unavailable for research because the local Indian tribe refuses to permit it, and wants it buried back in the ground asap.

I share with you a desire to use science to know more of Kennewick man.

I am not sure that we do not inherit our characteristics.  When I met my father at age 18, I was surprised by how much like him  I was.  And my daughter is like my mother, although they spent very little time together.  I am quite sure that like dogs, humans do inherit characteristics, however, if this is determined by race or not is questionable.

We know you are distinctly different from an ape because apes do not participate in these discussions.   Humans have a social difference that comes in their genes, and this difference seems to have lead to language and I would say language created the huge gap between humans and animals.  I do not think the gap between humans and animals is the same for all humans.  I would say the size of the gap is dependent on language and education.   I would say humans with limited language are closer to animals, because they do not have the evolved culture we have.  Culture making a difference.  However, I would add to this, we can be well educated in technology and still close to the animals, because education for technology lacks some of the education for being human.  Humans who act on what the feel, being closer to animals, than humans who live by learned principles.  

I am thinking of the European line of Australians dislike of  the aborigine.  Is the difference between these people determined by genes or culture?  How much can one be made like the other?  What would it take to make one like the other?

Edited by me-wonders, 09 December 2012 - 06:52 PM.


#33    redhen

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 01:57 PM

View Postme-wonders, on 09 December 2012 - 06:51 PM, said:

I am not sure that we do not inherit our characteristics.

That's most probable. I just wanted to make clear that I don't believe there are any differences in cognitive abilities based on ancestry. We all have the same potential, except of course for those unfortunates with congenital disorders, head trauma, etc.

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We know you are distinctly different from an ape because apes do not participate in these discussions.

Distinctly? How so? Humans are slotted in the category hominidae which consists of chimps, gorillas, orangutans and humans.I submit that we are not different in kind, only by degrees.

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   I do not think the gap between humans and animals is the same for all humans.  I would say the size of the gap is dependent on language and education.

Sure, there are always exceptions; the prime one being the sad cases of feral children. Nurture, or lack thereof, seems more consequential than nature.


#34    me-wonders

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 04:28 PM

View Postredhen, on 10 December 2012 - 01:57 PM, said:

That's most probable. I just wanted to make clear that I don't believe there are any differences in cognitive abilities based on ancestry. We all have the same potential, except of course for those unfortunates with congenital disorders, head trauma, etc.



Distinctly? How so? Humans are slotted in the category hominidae which consists of chimps, gorillas, orangutans and humans.I submit that we are not different in kind, only by degrees.



Sure, there are always exceptions; the prime one being the sad cases of feral children. Nurture, or lack thereof, seems more consequential than nature.

The newer research is leaning towards the idea that although apes care about each other, and we have all heard, "monkey see monkey do" humans take an interest in each other a step further, and this is likely what lead to humans developing language.  Language has made humans greatly different from other animals.

Yes, other animals can understand sounds and some even repeat the sounds we make, like birds.  Chimps and bonobo seem to take language even further and  demonstrate some skill in abstract thinking.  Such as they think it odd to see a bird used as hammer.  This means a degree of conceptual thinking.   Especially the tragedy of chimps who were taught language and humanized, and then were released in the wild, should make us contemplate the morality of what we are doing.   The problem is, unlike a human child, these chimps do not learn so well our concepts of good behavior, and their bad behavior is what results in people wanting to get rid them.  Three year olds in adult bodies are a problem, especially after hormones set in.  We learn more than the animals, and our ability to learn is accumulative over our life times.  No one will teach a 3 year old high school math, because their brains are not developed enough.  Having intellectual discussions with teenagers can be interesting, but also frustrating because their brains still are ready for the thinking we do later in life.  Perhaps I should say, it is what happens to the human brain over many years, that makes us different from animals.   Our brains develop rapidly and do not stop developing.   However, our brains slow down and go through many different phrases of development.

The case of feral children is excellent when comparing with the most intelligent apes and the extreme immorality of playing with them and then releasing them in the wild.   We have two things going here.  One is the development of the brain, and windows of learning.  Somethings can not be learned by animals, birds, humans, once the window for learning has passed.  For this reason feral children can be taught technological skills like speaking and wearing clothes, but they do not become as children who always lived with humans.  There is something in our humanness that must be early in life, or we do get a well adjusted human.  How far chimps go in learning this is the big question?   It might be as wrong to humanize them and turn them back into the wild, as it would do to this to a human child.

Which leads to the second part, learning is cumulative.  If we humanized whole troops of bonobo and taught them language and gave the technological objects that support the language, say spoons and plates, clothing, etc. would they pass this on to the next generation, and would each generation add to this pool of knowledge as humans do?  That is, if we worked with them enough, would we put the hairy apes on the same evolutionary path that naked ape  travel?


#35    me-wonders

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 05:08 PM

Here is a serious study that claims sex and race do matter on IQ scores.

http://www.thebirdma...eAndAsianIQ.htm

Here is another research explaining racial differences in IQ.

http://www.sq.4mg.com/LynnIQdiff.htm

And this attacks Lynn's work.  As expected his work is ethnically biased, and bad science.

http://abagond.wordp...rican-iq-is-70/

Edited by me-wonders, 10 December 2012 - 05:29 PM.





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