38 replies to this topic

[AwakenAscension]

My apoologies. That just seems so obvious to me, that it frustrates me when no one seems to realize it. Perhaps I should just keep my conclusions to myself on that matter.

[laughingclone]

Even in following this It should be from the beginning of man .
and starting with the Core  Primal Instinct , and that would be FEAR.
and from there .... ALOT of things stem from FEAR.

[joc]

laughingclone, on 28 November 2012 - 04:47 AM, said:

Even in following this It should be from the beginning of man .
and starting with the Core  Primal Instinct , and that would be FEAR.
and from there .... ALOT of things stem from FEAR.

I disagree with the Core Primal Instinct being FEAR.  The Core Primal Instinct is SURVIVAL.   Is the Rabbit exhibiting FEAR when he is running for his life from the coyote?  I don't think so.  The Primival Brain...that is our Core Brain...is about survival.  Fear is an attribute of the evolved neo-cortex.  As is Ego.  Perhaps a math equation for The Dark Side might be:  E(go) + F(ear) = The Dark Side.

Edited by joc, 28 November 2012 - 05:15 AM.

[me-wonders]

joc, on 28 November 2012 - 05:10 AM, said:

I disagree with the Core Primal Instinct being FEAR.  The Core Primal Instinct is SURVIVAL.   Is the Rabbit exhibiting FEAR when he is running for his life from the coyote?  I don't think so.  The Primival Brain...that is our Core Brain...is about survival.  Fear is an attribute of the evolved neo-cortex.  As is Ego.  Perhaps a math equation for The Dark Side might be:  E(go) + F(ear) = The Dark Side.

The book "Emotional Intelligence" explains how the brain works, and that our survival sometimes depends on reacting without thinking.  Unfortunately we do not use this science when judging why someone speeds away from police and the police react like a tiger about to loose its meal.  The military trains people to react without thinking, and this training gets reinforced in combat, and then it discharges these people and put them on the streets without changing their programming.  That is very irresponsible.

However, I think we can call the fight or flight response a fear response, if it is a rabbit or human.  Because it is a hormonal response to a trigger.   Immediately the body is flooded with hormones and the animal reacts without thinking.  I think we call  this sensation caused by this flood of hormones, fear?   I had this intense hormonal response 24 hours after a crisis, and wound up in an emergency room explaining my sensation of panic to a doctor a couple of times, before I figured out this was a delayed reaction.  Like the intense panic was completely disconnected from the experience that caused it by time, so went into the emergency room  all I knew was that I was  experiencing intense panic, and I didn't know why.  The delayed reaction It has something to do with the hormones and how they build and are metabolized.  Sometimes, thinking does not work in our favor, as it can keep us in situations we should leave.   When we do this repeatedly, damage to our systems can occur.

Thank you all for bringing this up and causing me to think on it.

[AwakenAscension]

I lived, for years, under a shroud of anxiety and aggression. But it was all over things that I find superficial, now. That anxiety seemed to actually be helping me, at the time. Making me very efficient at keeping my double (or quadruple) life, in check. From rehearsing all my lies, in my head, to thinking up who I should watch out for and why and what the odds of this & that happening, coming up with backup plans, etc. But this anxiety was also keeping me trapped in my ways. I went through another phase, later on, where I was having full blown panic attacks, and that was a totally "different animal" to me. There is no ability to think or reason or put together anything, like that. The only way I can describe it, is if you were affraid of heights and dangling from a building. It was the fear of death.. or maybe of NOT BEING (if that makes sense). Then I came to a realization that all the fear I ever experienced, throughout my life, somewhere at the root of it all, was a fear of ceasing to exist, in some way.

I wonder if perhaps, this is tangled in somewhere with why people have so much fear and anxiety, today.. Why people need to exist as much as possible, in the highest, most intense ways possible (by their perception)..  I know that anger and frustration exist only in cooperation with fear and anxiety. So might this be the path to understanding where the "dark side" of people originates and grows into what it becomes..?

[Tutankhaten-pasheri]

Been to Munster, seen the cages still hanging from the tower of the Dom. Very nice city by the way. However, I do not believe we have an "evil side". I think individual evil acts, like some terrible murder, happen because the person is damaged, not acting on some under the suface evilness that the rest of us keep on a leash. When you look at the barbarity that occured in Munster, and other places in the same general time frame, Antwerp for instance, and modern horrors such as Auschwitz, then there is something else happening. What links these big scale horrors carried out by states, is that they all think they have some truth and that they are not doing evil, but doing good, because they see their victims as being the evil. I do not believe in any Satan, so I also do not believe in some evil force. Certainly individual people can be evil, though that is really a lack of morals and empathy for fellow humans, or animals. The problems occur when such people have power, and often such people gain power precisely because they have no morality. About them hover other such creatures, drawn like a moth to a flame. But I think it is all just personal imorality due to damaged minds, not anything that is potentially within all of us.

[me-wonders]

My 5 year old grandson had a tooth pulled yesterday and the sedative he was given, made him an extremely unpleasant young man!  It is well known the sedative will have this effect on children.  It got me to thinking about how our sense of being is really chemical reactions.  Molded rye can result in abnormal behavior, and may be behind witch hunts and stories of werewolves.  Low blood sugar can make people crouchy and several crouchy  or angry or scared people, can lead to a group action.  For sure, because I spent a good part of my day with my grandson and another children, I know my reaction to a crouchy child is not good.  As a single child feeling out of sorts, I could have dealt with grandson better than having to think of him and another small child too.  For sure I will never again put a child on the sedative with another child.  A child on this medication needs to have a day completely devoted to his needs, without a demand to cooperate with others.   This is to say, we have so much to think about, from brain chemistry to group dynamics.

What was horrify about Munster was the group dynamics, and willingness to watch people suffer and even enjoy their suffering.   The willingness to watch men, and mothers and the children starve to death in the area around Munster.  Both sides of this conflict seemed to take pleasure in the suffering of those who left the city walls, but could not leave area that was surrounded by soldiers.   These people were not allowed to leave the barricade created by soldiers, nor were they allowed to return to the city walls.  It was a horrifying scene of days of suffering and people inside the walls jeering at those trapped between the conflicting parties.  Occupy did not get this bad, but I think the group dynamics were similar.  I may never forget the city councilors smiling after someone was killed and they were justified in closing the camp.  There was a total disconnect between them and the people in the camp.  I was so close to getting people in housing and this opportunity came to an end when the camp was closed.  More than one woman there was made homeless by cancer.  There I was working closely with desperate people, and the city councilors made promises they didn't keep, and were smiling when a death occurred.  Disconnect!   Morals?  I am sure the city councilors and mayor see themselves as moral people, but they were disconnected from those who need our help.  

On the other hand, the Occupy people were so non cooperative with the rest of society, that they totally failed to access resources that could have made a huge difference.   They were on an ego trip, insisting on doing things their way, and failing to even look at all the services and organizations that are devoted to helping people in need.  What a disaster! They were well meaning people who never needed services, so they didn't know about them, or needy people who didn't know of the services either.  Disconnect!  I tried to bridge, but Occupy folks made this impossible, because of their own ego trip and lack of education and experience with organizations. Telling them we have organizations that help people, and trying to get an organized group action was impossible.  They took individualism too far.  Anarchy can not achieve what organized people can achieve.

Edited by me-wonders, 30 November 2012 - 06:22 PM.

[behavioralist]

AwakenAscension, on 28 November 2012 - 08:51 PM, said:

I lived, for years, under a shroud of anxiety and aggression. But it was all over things that I find superficial, now. That anxiety seemed to actually be helping me, at the time. Making me very efficient at keeping my double (or quadruple) life, in check. From rehearsing all my lies, in my head, to thinking up who I should watch out for and why and what the odds of this & that happening, coming up with backup plans, etc. But this anxiety was also keeping me trapped in my ways. I went through another phase, later on, where I was having full blown panic attacks, and that was a totally "different animal" to me. There is no ability to think or reason or put together anything, like that. The only way I can describe it, is if you were affraid of heights and dangling from a building. It was the fear of death.. or maybe of NOT BEING (if that makes sense). Then I came to a realization that all the fear I ever experienced, throughout my life, somewhere at the root of it all, was a fear of ceasing to exist, in some way.

I wonder if perhaps, this is tangled in somewhere with why people have so much fear and anxiety, today.. Why people need to exist as much as possible, in the highest, most intense ways possible (by their perception)..  I know that anger and frustration exist only in cooperation with fear and anxiety. So might this be the path to understanding where the "dark side" of people originates and grows into what it becomes..?

Consider that adults perpetually dissemble their real emotions, so that their real emotions are never observed by any other person ever. Add to this that all emotions you have experienced other adults,(since you were born) as feeling, were feigned emotions. No one has ever seen how an adult really feels, because it is more advantageous to Control reactions by feigning to feel otherwise. A question emerges regarding the origins of ones own feelings. For example, let's say they are imprinted. genetic, so that because your parent felt them you have no option but to feel them. You never experienced that the parent felt them, and so you can't trace back to that.

[Tutankhaten-pasheri]

me-wonders, on 30 November 2012 - 06:19 PM, said:

They took individualism too far.  Anarchy can not achieve what organized people can achieve.

Problem with those who say they are anarchists and wear masks and smash shops etc, is that they are either simply criminals using politics as cover, or they are actually Reds flying Black banner as disguise. It is well known that Kropotkin saw that communism was flawed and would lead to totalitarianism, and he hotly argued with Marx about this to the extent that he became almost an ideological enemy of Marx. The original anarchism as developed by Kropotkin and Bakunin, certainly puts the individual at the centre, but not at the expense of society. Anarchy was never meant to be anarchy as meaning a lack of responsibility and any laws. I suspect those calling themselves anarchists these days probably never even read Kropotkin and Bakunin, but likely are  "champaigne socialists" who have had their heads filled with western versions of Marxism-Leninism

Edited by Atentutankh-pasheri, 30 November 2012 - 07:04 PM.