159 replies to this topic

[Professor T]

and then, on 08 January 2013 - 09:55 AM, said:

If their systems appeal to you that much then why not immigrate?  I'm sure they'd love to have someone who supports their ideals.

Ironically I'm hoping to visit next year.. I've caught the Travel Bug.. Think I'll start in China then move up to Siberia and across towards Moscow. Have tried to learn the lingo, and the thought of immigrating to somewhere like Siberia or Atyrau appeals to me.. I can sure think of a few other counties in the world I'd not like to visit..

[Professor T]

I believe you, on 08 January 2013 - 05:16 PM, said:

Excellent, a multipolar world will definitely free us of political hegemony.

You might be interested in this article.

http://www.huffingto..._b_2421796.html

Far out..
That Artical is bang on!

[Leave Britney alone!]

Helen of Annoy, on 08 January 2013 - 06:32 PM, said:

Aha, and 2,000 - 5,000 Kurds dropped dead on their own. Or maybe they died en masse to spite Saddam and ruin his reputation. Maybe Saddam was only spraying mosquitoes, Weapons of Mosquito Destruction...

Those were weapons we (Americans) allowed them to have.

When it was stated by me that Iraq had no WMDs, it was specifically at the period when we started our war against Saddam.

The Republicans here just lied to everyone saying they had WMDs as a pretext to go to war with them, so companies they have interests in could make profits, such as munition companies, fuel services, and other contract work for the government.

So again, Iraq had no WMDs.

[AsteroidX]

No Iraq had no WMD's after we invaded. They gave them  to Syria.

[The New Richard Nixon]

I believe you, on 08 January 2013 - 07:25 PM, said:

Those were weapons we (Americans) allowed them to have.

When it was stated by me that Iraq had no WMDs, it was specifically at the period when we started our war against Saddam.

The Republicans here just lied to everyone saying they had WMDs as a pretext to go to war with them, so companies they have interests in could make profits, such as munition companies, fuel services, and other contract work for the government.

So again, Iraq had no WMDs.

[Leave Britney alone!]

AsteroidX, on 08 January 2013 - 07:27 PM, said:

No Iraq had no WMD's after we invaded. They gave them  to Syria.

Syria pulled their ambassador out of Iraq in the 60s. They supported America in the Persian Gulf War in the 90s. It was not until 2006 that Syria and Iraq resumed relations.

Who gave what who exactly and where is your proof?

Edited by I believe you, 08 January 2013 - 07:39 PM.

[Helen of Annoy]

I believe you, on 08 January 2013 - 07:25 PM, said:

Those were weapons we (Americans) allowed them to have.

When it was stated by me that Iraq had no WMDs, it was specifically at the period when we started our war against Saddam.

The Republicans here just lied to everyone saying they had WMDs as a pretext to go to war with them, so companies they have interests in could make profits, such as munition companies, fuel services, and other contract work for the government.

So again, Iraq had no WMDs.

I don’t care who let whom have what, I care about thousands of dead people. I will not ignore them.

US didn’t put chemical weapons into Saddam’s hands and even if it was so, he could have said "no, thanks", or even "Thanks, let it rot in the cellar, I'm not using that crap".

Just like Assad could have said “no, thanks, I don’t want to murder my nation” to Russia that is – newsflash! – making handsome profit out of their arms deals.

Or we’ll pretend Russia is not one of the greatest weapon manufacturers and exporters?
Or that’s how balanced world is supposed to look like, with death traders profiting nice and even as on the West so on the East?

[Leave Britney alone!]

Helen of Annoy, on 08 January 2013 - 07:43 PM, said:

I don’t care who let whom have what, I care about thousands of dead people. I will not ignore them.

Well you showed your priorities between facts and emotions. I will not ignore facts either. I also care about all the dead people as a result of our nation attacking Iraq, many of our soliders and contractors, way too many Iraqi civilians and combatants too, yes all of life lost is a waste and a shame, no need to be selective and say this does not matter, that you don't care, I care about the Kurds too but more died, you should care that we began Iraq's chemical weapon program, had we not no Kurds would have died.

Any WMD's found in Iraq were from the 1980's and inoperable. We invaded on a pretext.

Helen of Annoy, on 08 January 2013 - 07:43 PM, said:

US didn’t put chemical weapons into Saddam’s hands and even if it was so, he could have said "no, thanks", or even "Thanks, let it rot in the cellar, I'm not using that crap".

I am not sure if you know more than I do about what happens in my country and what our country does just as you can be sure I am not an expert of Croatia.

Helen of Annoy, on 08 January 2013 - 07:43 PM, said:

Just like Assad could have said “no, thanks, I don’t want to murder my nation” to Russia that is – newsflash! – making handsome profit out of their arms deals.

Or we’ll pretend Russia is not one of the greatest weapon manufacturers and exporters?
Or that’s how balanced world is supposed to look like, with death traders profiting nice and even as on the West so on the East?

We should not ignore any of those things.

I also advise not strongly taking sides in Syria, many of the rebels are not nice people either, I personally root for all the people, your solution of taking out the government already in place, who have decades of experience, and putting in rebels, who don't know how to run a country, is very risky.

To you it might seem like it is Assad versus the people. There are actually people, one whole society that supports Assad, another society that supports the rebels, and in them there are more groups, people, real life, if the rebels win they will slaughter the other side, if Assad wins he will slaughter the other side, neither is good. Supporting one or the other is the same thing in my book, you support war if you support the rebels, they are not going to stop with Assad but kill many innocents and already have started. Both sides are guilty, I support neither!

There has to be a better way than the military solution you envision, but it will play out, then there will be a new can of worms and most likely you will also simply take the bait and root and root for one side, getting so emotionally involved, when it is better to try and understand the problems in total and root for peace, not war, taking out Assad means more war, it really does, and I have not much more to say on this topic I dont' like the arguing over Syria, I only entered this thread because of Russia and the international implications.

Russia is not the bad guy, America is not the bad guy, Russia is the bad guy, America is the bad guy, innocent civilians suffer between our cold war antics, how you can support either nation, or attack just one and not both equally is just perpetuating the cycle, think instead of just going with the media presentation, because all I hear is people puppeting what the media says, or taking one side or the other, there is a third position.

Edited by I believe you, 08 January 2013 - 08:04 PM.

[Helen of Annoy]

I believe you, on 08 January 2013 - 07:55 PM, said:

Well you showed your priorities between facts and emotions. I will not ignore facts either. I also care about all the dead people as a result of our nation attacking Iraq, many of our soliders and contractors, way too many Iraqi civilians and combatants too, yes all of life lost is a waste and a shame, no need to be selective and say this does not matter, that you don't care, I care about the Kurds too but more died, you should care that we began Iraq's chemical weapon program, had we not no Kurds would have died.

Everyone’s emotional. Except officially psychopathic people, but I’ll try not to digress.
I agree, no selectiveness about the dead, and I’d add no selectiveness about the responsibility. If it’s possible to shift all the blame from Saddam onto US, then please shift all the blame from Assad onto Russia and face what your balance is about.

Quote

Any WMD's found in Iraq were from the 1980's and inoperable. We invaded on a pretext.

You invaded as part of war for oil. That’s obvious. Russia too trades oil, China needs oil, it’s all about oil. When you hope for better balance in modern oil-run world, you are sawing off the branch you personally are sitting on.
Obviously. Since only utter altruism could be the reason why you wish to lose your standard of living in favour of China, I can only applaud you.
(I like the way Aten-etc-Pasheri simply said Russia is protecting their interests. Man's not beating around the bush. Russians themselves are far more acceptable than their apologists, probably because Russians know what they are doing while the apologists are imagining what they would like Russians to do.)

Quote

I am not sure if you know more than I do about what happens in my country and what our country does just as you can be sure I am not an expert of Croatia.

I’m sure I do.

Quote

We should not ignore any of those things.

I also advise not strongly taking sides in Syria, many of the rebels are not nice people either, I personally root for all the people, your solution of taking out the government already in place, who have decades of experience, and putting in rebels, who don't know how to run a country, is very risky.

Many of Croats are not nice people but I certainly wouldn’t let Serbia overrun us just because we have *******s too. *******s are the fact of life, *******s in power are the end of life.
Not only my country refused central government (another badly camouflaged Russian pawn), we refused their country (badly camouflaged as federation).

Quote

To you it might seem like it is Assad versus the people. There are actually people, one whole society that supports Assad, another society that supports the rebels, and in them there are more groups, people, real life, if the rebels win they will slaughter the other side, if Assad wins he will slaughter the other side, neither is good. Supporting one or the other is the same thing in my book, you support war if you support the rebels, they are not going to stop with Assad but kill many innocents and already have started. Both sides are guilty, I support neither!

Well, Russians kindly offered to take them to a much happier place, where tsar personally guarantees your safety. Because he’s that good and just, not because you have stolen bazillions stashed away in his banks. lol.

Quote

There has to be a better way than the military solution you envision, but it will play out, then there will be a new can of worms and most likely you will also simply take the bait and root and root for one side, getting so emotionally involved, when it is better to try and understand the problems in total and root for peace, not war, taking out Assad means more war, it really does, and I have not much more to say on this topic I dont' like the arguing over Syria, I only entered this thread because of Russia and the international implications.

Since I experienced a war first-hand, it’s kind of distasteful to say I support the war.
I know the war cannot be stopped with flowers once it starts rolling, so I’m the peacenikest peacenik before it breaks out. When first couple hundred is dead, there’s no stopping, only pausing. Wars stop when all sides are exhausted.


Also, apparently you’re psychic. Not only you know what I will do, but you also know you won’t be able to counter it properly.

I too see Russia as the most important part of the Syrian puzzle. Only I don't think it's good, balancing news.

Quote

Russia is not the bad guy, America is not the bad guy, Russia is the bad guy, America is the bad guy, innocent civilians suffer between our cold war antics, how you can support either nation, or attack just one and not both equally is just perpetuating the cycle, think instead of just going with the media presentation, because all I hear is people puppeting what the media says, or taking one side or the other, there is a third position.

I’m of one of those nations that were ruined by the Russian side. Ruined and it was planned to drive us to complete extinction – part of population physically extinct, part Serbified. For easier management.

I don’t need media to tell me what Serbian expansionism, backed up by Russian, did to my people. It’s my history, my land, my choice. I choose West, return of my nation to the Western circle where it belongs. It must sound so old-fashioned to you, but my opinion comes from my own direct experiences. May you never have them the way I did.

Is Russia bad guy then? No, they just see their interests are kept. Same as US. There is no third way at the moment, unless you have an idea how to make average greedy, half-literate man into a saint.
Theory is one thing, practice something completely else. Ask Russians if you don't believe me.

Edited by Helen of Annoy, 08 January 2013 - 09:07 PM.

[Colonel Rhuairidh]

The fact that most of them would seem to be amphibious ships would kind of suggest that they were probably preparing to evacuate citizens rather than trying to threaten to forces of Freedom, yes, but of course you can always rely on the West for paranoia.

[joc]

Helen of Annoy, on 08 January 2013 - 08:55 PM, said:

Everyone’s emotional. Except officially psychopathic people, but I’ll try not to digress.
I agree, no selectiveness about the dead, and I’d add no selectiveness about the responsibility. If it’s possible to shift all the blame from Saddam onto US, then please shift all the blame from Assad onto Russia and face what your balance is about.





You invaded as part of war for oil. That’s obvious. Russia too trades oil, China needs oil, it’s all about oil. When you hope for better balance in modern oil-run world, you are sawing off the branch you personally are sitting on.
Obviously. Since only utter altruism could be the reason why you wish to lose your standard of living in favour of China, I can only applaud you.
(I like the way Aten-etc-Pasheri simply said Russia is protecting their interests. Man's not beating around the bush. Russians themselves are far more acceptable than their apologists, probably because Russians know what they are doing while the apologists are imagining what they would like Russians to do.)





I’m sure I do.







Many of Croats are not nice people but I certainly wouldn’t let Serbia overrun us just because we have *******s too. *******s are the fact of life, *******s in power are the end of life.
Not only my country refused central government (another badly camouflaged Russian pawn), we refused their country (badly camouflaged as federation).




Well, Russians kindly offered to take them to a much happier place, where tsar personally guarantees your safety. Because he’s that good and just, not because you have stolen bazillions stashed away in his banks. lol.





Since I experienced a war first-hand, it’s kind of distasteful to say I support the war.
I know the war cannot be stopped with flowers once it starts rolling, so I’m the peacenikest peacenik before it breaks out. When first couple hundred is dead, there’s no stopping, only pausing. Wars stop when all sides are exhausted.


Also, apparently you’re psychic. Not only you know what I will do, but you also know you won’t be able to counter it properly.

I too see Russia as the most important part of the Syrian puzzle. Only I don't think it's good, balancing news.





I’m of one of those nations that were ruined by the Russian side. Ruined and it was planned to drive us to complete extinction – part of population physically extinct, part Serbified. For easier management.

I don’t need media to tell me what Serbian expansionism, backed up by Russian, did to my people. It’s my history, my land, my choice. I choose West, return of my nation to the Western circle where it belongs. It must sound so old-fashioned to you, but my opinion comes from my own direct experiences. May you never have them the way I did.

Is Russia bad guy then? No, they just see their interests are kept. Same as US. There is no third way at the moment, unless you have an idea how to make average greedy, half-literate man into a saint.
Theory is one thing, practice something completely else. Ask Russians if you don't believe me.

RAWR!!

Edited by joc, 08 January 2013 - 09:09 PM.

[Colonel Rhuairidh]

and then, on 08 January 2013 - 09:55 AM, said:

Because the situation in Syria so closely resembles that in Palestine, right?  Cry for the perpetrator all you care to but leave me out of your pity party.
If their systems appeal to you that much then why not immigrate?  I'm sure they'd love to have someone who supports their ideals.

is this  the "if you don't support Freedom and Democracy, then why don't you go & join  the Commies"  argument I see before me? So we're still living the Cold War, are we?

[joc]

Lord Vetinari, on 08 January 2013 - 09:09 PM, said:

is this  the "if you don't support Freedom and Democracy, then why don't you go & join  the Commies"  argument I see before me? So we're still living the Cold War, are we?

We never left the Cold War...you think we did...most think we did..but we didn't...do you really think we went to Iraq over Sadaam...think again...

[Helen of Annoy]

joc, on 08 January 2013 - 09:08 PM, said:

RAWR!!

[Leave Britney alone!]

Helen of Annoy, on 08 January 2013 - 08:55 PM, said:

Everyone’s emotional. Except officially psychopathic people, but I’ll try not to digress.
I agree, no selectiveness about the dead, and I’d add no selectiveness about the responsibility. If it’s possible to shift all the blame from Saddam onto US, then please shift all the blame from Assad onto Russia and face what your balance is about.

Overly emotional for the situaton then but that was an interesting factoid, thanks. What about people on medication? Some report being emotionless but not all are psychopathic.

Russia causes lots of problems, let me just agree with you there so I can just say ditto! when it comes to Russia. But if you are only going to attack Russia, or just take news from Western sources, you are plainly biased, unsure if you picking a side (the West as you stated in your post) is just based on where you were born (wow very tribal), or because you feel they are right (they are not completely right, no one in any dispute gives the total truth, even if they are being honest they cannot understand the situation until they accept and understand all points of views from all sides), or some other reason.

Helen of Annoy, on 08 January 2013 - 08:55 PM, said:

You invaded as part of war for oil. That’s obvious. Russia too trades oil, China needs oil, it’s all about oil. When you hope for better balance in modern oil-run world, you are sawing off the branch you personally are sitting on.

I don't believe that either.

Helen of Annoy, on 08 January 2013 - 08:55 PM, said:

Obviously. Since only utter altruism could be the reason why you wish to lose your standard of living in favour of China, I can only applaud you.

I understand for in order to have a more egalitarian globe that the West has to reduce their standard of living so China and others can raise theirs.

We also need to switch from a zero sum game to a non zero sum game.

I don't believe it has anything to do with altruism. That is an attitude of having more and giving to those in need. I don't want anyone in need, we should all have, we should all thrive.

Helen of Annoy, on 08 January 2013 - 08:55 PM, said:

(I like the way Aten-etc-Pasheri simply said Russia is protecting their interests. Man's not beating around the bush. Russians themselves are far more acceptable than their apologists, probably because Russians know what they are doing while the apologists are imagining what they would like Russians to do.)

Ditto!

Helen of Annoy, on 08 January 2013 - 08:55 PM, said:

I’m sure I do.

I believe you believe you do.

Helen of Annoy, on 08 January 2013 - 08:55 PM, said:

Many of Croats are not nice people but I certainly wouldn’t let Serbia overrun us just because we have *******s too. *******s are the fact of life, *******s in power are the end of life.

You guys did some bad things to Serbs too.

Helen of Annoy, on 08 January 2013 - 08:55 PM, said:

Not only my country refused central government (another badly camouflaged Russian pawn), we refused their country (badly camouflaged as federation).

I understand that is how your countrymen feel about it. Serbs feel different. Neither your view or theirs is the total truth, both combined comes closer to it. Tell me their view too so I can truly learn something.

Helen of Annoy, on 08 January 2013 - 08:55 PM, said:

Well, Russians kindly offered to take them to a much happier place, where tsar personally guarantees your safety. Because he’s that good and just, not because you have stolen bazillions stashed away in his banks. lol.

Ditto!

Helen of Annoy, on 08 January 2013 - 08:55 PM, said:

Since I experienced a war first-hand, it’s kind of distasteful to say I support the war.

You say you don't but will explain how you do in the next quote.

Helen of Annoy, on 08 January 2013 - 08:55 PM, said:

I know the war cannot be stopped with flowers once it starts rolling, so I’m the peacenikest peacenik before it breaks out. When first couple hundred is dead, there’s no stopping, only pausing. Wars stop when all sides are exhausted.

So pick a side each and every time. That is backward to me. I am against war, we will have a globe one day without it, it is for a newer generation.

Helen of Annoy, on 08 January 2013 - 08:55 PM, said:

Also, apparently you’re psychic. Not only you know what I will do, but you also know you won’t be able to counter it properly.

I will do my best to express my point.

Helen of Annoy, on 08 January 2013 - 08:55 PM, said:

I too see Russia as the most important part of the Syrian puzzle. Only I don't think it's good, balancing news.

Ditto!

Helen of Annoy, on 08 January 2013 - 08:55 PM, said:

I’m of one of those nations that were ruined by the Russian side. Ruined and it was planned to drive us to complete extinction – part of population physically extinct, part Serbified. For easier management.

Ditto! I also think NATO helped ruin the former Yugoslavia.

Helen of Annoy, on 08 January 2013 - 08:55 PM, said:

I don’t need media to tell me what Serbian expansionism, backed up by Russian, did to my people. It’s my history, my land, my choice. I choose West, return of my nation to the Western circle where it belongs. It must sound so old-fashioned to you, but my opinion comes from my own direct experiences. May you never have them the way I did.

Your narrative is just half the story, when you can tell me the other side, it will seem less tribal, less ranting against an enemy, more understanding. When you support wars, you are just supporting companies that sell weapons, their nations, and while they make a profit others have to suffer. Quit picking sides for a better world.