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Spreckel Mansion Death/Suicide


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#61    ouija ouija

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 05:28 PM

View Postregi, on 24 January 2013 - 05:09 PM, said:

I didn't say it would be the same evidence...I said it would be SOME of the same.
Re: whether menses was proven, there was no injury....

Re: the rest of your post, all I can think to comment is if you based what you think on facts, then you wouldn't have to speculate.

What facts did you have in mind, specifically?

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#62    regi

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 06:16 PM

View Postouija ouija, on 24 January 2013 - 05:28 PM, said:

What facts did you have in mind, specifically?

What facts do I have in mind? The facts of the case! You do know what facts are, and what THE facts are, right? You're trying to force a theory based on entirely on speculation, and if you don't know speculation from fact, and recognize that that's what you're doing, then I have nothing to offer.


#63    ouija ouija

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 08:00 PM

View Postregi, on 24 January 2013 - 06:16 PM, said:

What facts do I have in mind? The facts of the case! You do know what facts are, and what THE facts are, right? You're trying to force a theory based on entirely on speculation, and if you don't know speculation from fact, and recognize that that's what you're doing, then I have nothing to offer.

Why are you being rude? I do know the facts of the case and that is why I can't accept that it was suicide. How do you think facts are established? With a lot of speculation covering all the possibilities and then seeing what can be proved.

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#64    Antilles

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 06:39 AM

I think ouija has made a good point. I didn't know the brother was a tugboat captain. I said in an earlier post that the way the rope was tied didn't seem to be something you'd expect a 26 year old woman to be familiar with.

But.....do we know if she went sailing?


#65    regi

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 12:50 PM

View Postouija ouija, on 24 January 2013 - 08:00 PM, said:

Why are you being rude? I do know the facts of the case and that is why I can't accept that it was suicide. How do you think facts are established? With a lot of speculation covering all the possibilities and then seeing what can be proved.

I think the facts have been established and show what happened.
Clearly, I don't have the patience for accusation and speculation, and I think it should also be clear that I'm not interested in entertaining what if's and maybe's and perhaps's.
I think the evidence shows what happened, and so to me, there's absolutely no point in wondering about this or that.
Besides, and quite frankly, given my opinion of the entire case, I've had my fill of examining the circumstances of Zahau's death.


#66    ouija ouija

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 12:53 PM

View PostAntilles, on 25 January 2013 - 06:39 AM, said:

I think ouija has made a good point. I didn't know the brother was a tugboat captain. I said in an earlier post that the way the rope was tied didn't seem to be something you'd expect a 26 year old woman to be familiar with.

But.....do we know if she went sailing?
Even if Rebecca was familiar with those knots there still isn't an explanation as to how she got over the balcony railings whilst all trussed up ...... she certainly couldn't have tied herself up whilst on the garden side of the railings.

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#67    Vincennes

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 07:12 PM

Ouija, when I read you last post regarding Adams' brother being a tugboat captain - in view of the knots.  That is an OMG.  If I remember correctly throughtout all the things I read when we were first discussing things in this thread, those knots were an unaswered question even to the police.  Antilles brought that very good question previously and it really didn't get discussed.

I knew the brother was considered far less prestigious than his brother, but I never heard his profession.  If memory serves me at all and I don't remember where I read this but I will try to find it... that the brother left California and returned home soon after he was interviewed.  He had come immediately to help his brother due to his son's "accident."  However, he leaves and doesn't stay to help after an additional death

You brought up the porn on the brother's phone also.  That it really doesn't seem to be typical thing to be doing in that situation.  That brought up a memory of something I read when I was first following this case...  There was a computer in Rebecca's bedroom and one of the last sites that "she" was on was regarding some type of advanced sexual play.  At the time they were, in fact, till saying, "someone else could have been on her computer."    ~~~~Need to find that again because it could certainly tie together.

You really brought some good things forward.  I wonder if we could agree on a list of questions we have together regarding this.  Might be a good for an overall  vantage point.


#68    ouija ouija

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 08:47 PM

View PostDuncansmom, on 25 January 2013 - 07:12 PM, said:

You really brought some good things forward.  I wonder if we could agree on a list of questions we have together regarding this.  Might be a good for an overall  vantage point.

Good idea!

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#69    Vincennes

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 10:00 PM

Ok, thanks!  I will start it.  Now, I don't mean this is the definitive list of questions these are just the ones that come to my mind.  If everyone would agree they have the same question and add their own... Then we would end up with a list of questions we are working to determine answers for and maybe then we can go back and agree on  the tentative conclusions we find most likely

I'll start with Max first.  Not as much is coming to me now about Max, please help.

1.   Was it an accident?
2.   What are the indications that it was not an accident?
  2a   What would give him the force when he fell over the bannister to go through the chandelier?
3.    Was he conscious when he was found?
  3a.  Was he given CPR by Rebbeca?
3a.  Who was in the house at the time he fell?
4.    If it was not an accident, who did it?

Rebbeca

1.  Was it a suicide?
1a.  Is there any evidence of motivation for suicide?
2.  If not a suicide, what are the indicatiions is was a murder?
    ( Now, these are just the things that come to my mind right now ..... Please add your own or, if you feel there is an answer to the one I bring up, just fill it in as what you feel
  evidence supports and we can take it off the list.
  2a.  I think the few drops of blood in the bathrom are really unaccounted for.
    b.  I don't think the blood on Rebecca is sufficiently accounted for.
    c.  How would a person tie themselves up and leave no traces of that activity in the room?
d.  Where in the house did she obtain the items she used to tie herself up with?
  What kind of knots were used to tie her up?  Was it likely Rebecca could have tied them?
    d.   If she tied herself up in the bedroom, how did she get to the balcony and get over it leaving 1 and 1/2 sets of  prints?
    e.   There were 3 to 4 blows to her head significant enough to have caused loss of consciousness.  How did she get them?
    f.    What does the note painted on the door mean?
2a, 1.   Why would she paint a note on the door if she lived in the house?  Why wouldn't she just write a note on paper?
    2.  Why is the note blocked out in the pictures of the room?
    3.  Do we really know what it said?
   g.   Why would she have tape residue on her legs, that was significant enough for police to measure?

Other People Involved:

1.  The brother in-law
1.  Is looking at porn at that time significant?
2.  Why was what looks to be his assigned bed in the guest room not slept in?  (Per police report)
3.   Would he have been able to tie the knots used to bind her?

2.   The Guest House
  2a.  Why was that bed unmade?
   2b.  Why was there a pair of women't panties in that room in the trash?
   2 c 1.   If the police did take those panties, why weren't they tested.
    2.   Why are they then, "lost"

I think I have about used my space up.  The type is going wonky on me  I think we can attach a document to these posts.  Please, please this is only the questions that come to me.  Add your own.... and we can put aside those that have answers.
Looking forward to your responses  !!!!!


#70    Antilles

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 05:51 AM

Hey DM. I'll go back to the point I've made from the start, that this case IMO is all centred around the little boy's death.

Let's say his death was an accident (and I still don't buy that little boy swinging from the chandelier but anyway) it's obvious from the medical reports that no CPR was performed on Max. So Rebecca and her sister lied. I don't think there is any way around that fact. Now I don't necessarily see that as bad, it could well be that they were both scared after the accident and maybe they thought no-one would know if they hadn't helped him.

Anyway.

Are you thinking there was some sort of bondage game going on with her brother and she died accidentally?


#71    ouija ouija

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 01:29 PM

View PostAntilles, on 26 January 2013 - 05:51 AM, said:

Hey DM. I'll go back to the point I've made from the start, that this case IMO is all centred around the little boy's death.

Let's say his death was an accident (and I still don't buy that little boy swinging from the chandelier but anyway) it's obvious from the medical reports that no CPR was performed on Max. So Rebecca and her sister lied. I don't think there is any way around that fact. Now I don't necessarily see that as bad, it could well be that they were both scared after the accident and maybe they thought no-one would know if they hadn't helped him.
Hi Antilles. Do you think Max was murdered, or just that his blood relatives believe he was? Do you think one of the blood relatives murdered Rebecca?
I must admit I can't get interested in the death of Max, but I feel almost angry that the verdict of suicide was given for Rebecca. I don't think that anything can be proved about CPR having been given or not, not now that Rebecca is dead.

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#72    ouija ouija

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 04:14 PM

Okay, here is my list of questions that I would love to have answers to! :

MAX: a) As far as we know, Max was on his own when he fell/jumped, but, did 'Ocean' the dog have something to do with it ...... maybe jumping up at Max while he was balanced on the banister? Did Max say the dog's name because he had been involved in the fall, or did Rebecca say he said that, to implicate the dog?

B) In the recording of Max's aunt describing the evening she arrived in town and Rebecca picked her up from the airport(train station?), the aunt said that while they were driving along she asked Rebecca where exactly Max fell from. Rebecca replied 'from the bedroom' , which the aunt thought was odd, didn't make any sense. However, the aunt also said that Rebecca was having trouble finding her way to the hospital and in the end she(the aunt), ended up holding a map and guiding her. The aunt said she was asking Rebecca lots of questions(about Max's fall), but not getting any answers. I think this is understandable given the stressful driving conditions ...... so when Rebecca said 'from the bedroom', was she replying to the question 'How did Max get hold of the skateboard/scooter, I thought it had been taken from him?'. (I think I'm right in saying the scooter thing had been taken off him because of some misbehaviour with it previously).

c) In the pictures of Max's supposed 'method' of falling, the size of the model used in comparison to the height of the railings doesn't seem plausible ..... I don't think a child(or an adult for that matter), could run at the railings and simply tip over them. Banisters are designed, after all, to keep people safe!

d) Could Max's death have been staged? Was he already dead and then thrown from the landing? (I don't think that's what happened, I'm just asking the question because I'm not sure it's been raised as a possibility before).

e) Could Rebecca's sister have been involved at the time of his death ...... egging him on to do something daring on the banisters? Maybe even helping him up there?

f) I think you're right to ask who was in the house at the time of Max's demise, Duncansmom ......... any staff, for instance? or delivery men?

'Ocean' : Just a brief word: the dog was put into kennels on Jonah's insistence the day after the fall. Was this a simple 'there's a lot going on at the moment with Max seriously ill in hospital, let's have one less thing to think about and put the dog in kennels', or, as someone commenting in one of the links suggests: so that the dog wasn't around to make a noise about anything untoward that then subsequently happened in the house i.e. the murder of Rebecca?

ADAM SHACKNAI : a) I think this is of great significance!! : when the Coronado Police Chief first spoke to Adam and commiserated with him(on being the one to find Rebecca's body), the first thing Adam did was curse and say, ' I don't think my bedside manner is that bad!' ........ WTF!! (beg your pardon :blush: ). He certainly felt very comfortable and relaxed around the Police Chief to say that, didn't he?!! Was he getting that in as soon as he could, to put the thought in the police's mind right from the word 'go' that this was a sex game gone wrong? Because, as I have discovered, sometimes 'suicide' becomes the official verdict 'to spare the family's blushes' if the story of a kinky sex game was made public!!

B) Where was Adam standing when he supposedly cut Rebecca's body down? On the balcony? On the ground? On the little outside table, maybe?

c) Where did he get the knife from to cut the rope? Why were there two knifes in the 'balcony' bedroom, and a third on the ground near the body? What were they all used for and where did they come from?

REBECCA : a) Two things that point away from her death being a suicide: she didn't leave a farewell/explanatory note(I don't count the painted words on the door), and she was naked, which points more to humiliation and/or revenge by a murderer. To say nothing of wearing a shirt round her neck which had been used as a gag ...... why would a suicide gag themselves?

B) In the hours leading up to her death, Rebecca received a series of phone calls and text messages. Who were they to? from? Did Adam in fact, send any of them? Why was there no record of the voicemail Jonah said he sent to Rebecca? Did he ever send it? If it was erased, who did that?

c) The video of the 'rope demo'(to show how it was possible for Rebecca to have tied her hands at the front, removed one hand and then put it back through behind her back), is all fine and dandy as far as it goes! I would like to see someone demonstrate exactly how Rebecca was supposed to have tied her wrists and her ankles and her neck and then get herself to the balcony railings and tip herself over. Now that would be very revealing. So ....... was the very limited demo given to throw people off the 'suicide' conclusion? or were the police just slack in their investigations?

d) Regarding the knots and loops made in the rope: we know Adam is a tugboat captain, but was Rebecca an experienced yachtswoman? Was she used to using ropes? Or was she experienced in bondage games and therefore familiar with binding herself so that it looked impressive but was easy to get free of? Although all this does not explain being able to hop across to the balcony and tip herself over :hmm: !

e) I think the tape residue could be from plasters applied to tiny wounds received when kneeling on the carpet full of chandelier fragments next to Max, but I'm keeping an open mind about that .......

MATERIAL EVIDENCE: a) There was blaring music coming from the house on the night of the murder ...... to drown out screams? Where exactly was the music playing? Rebecca's room? the guesthouse?

B) I question the claim by the police that the writing on the door couldn't be analysed. I bet if they looked outside their county they could find someone! I bet it's possible to tell if the writer was left- or right-handed at the very least! Possibly a good estimation of their height, too. To say nothing of who did the brushes belong to? They don't look like a child's brushes or make-up brushes, so what were they used for? and where had they come from? was Rebecca an amateur artist? that should be easy enough to establish.

c) Max's aunt said she texted Rebecca at 9:30pm on the evening of the day she arrived, but phone records show that it was actually 10:41pm when the text was sent ....... pretty late to be going round to the house to speak to Rebecca about Max's fall(which is what the aunt claimed to be doing), especially when Rebecca had not answered her phone call or the text ........ which most people would interpret as 'she's gone to bed, she's had a stressful day, I'll call in the morning'. But no, the aunt claims to have gone to the house and, when she didn't get a reply from knocking, walked around the back ....... why would she do that? Seems pretty odd to me.

d) The red/orange rope: from the photographs this definitely looks to me like the type of synthetic rope used on boats/yachts(I'm not saying it isn't used in other situations, by the way!).
    The way the rope is attached to the bed leg is interesting: why would you start by making a loop? This is not the way Joe/Josephine Public would tie a rope! This has been tied by someone who is familiar with ropes and uses them regularly.
    The photo of the rope resting on the top of the balcony railings:  the railings look pretty dusty/dirty/rusty ..... there are some patches to the left of the rope where the dirt has been recently scuffed away, but around the rope there is no scuffing! This means that the rope has been placed gently there and then not touched. This cannot be the place it was in when Rebecca went over the balcony(obviously), but it also cannot be the position it was in when Adam had just cut her down ..... there would have been a lot of movement while he was cutting through the rope. This is why I think she never was hanging ....... I think Adam said that he found her hanging and cut her down because that gives a good 'alibi' for his fingerprints/DNA being on her, the rope, the balcony, etc etc.

e) The police say that Rebecca, and I quote them: 'bent over the rail and slid over'. Try and picture that ........ assuming it was even possible, wouldn't most of the dirt on the top of the railing get rubbed off during this manoeuvre?

f) The plastic bag on the bedroom floor: where had it come from? who put it there? (there seems to be some paint on it), any fingerprints on it? had it been used to suffocate Rebecca?

g) I don't know if this is of value or not: in the recording of Adam's 911 call, at one point the operator asks Adam if she(Rebecca), is dead. Adam replies 'yes, she's dead' but then he can be heard saying(to Rebecca), 'Are you dead?'. This sounded absolutely bizarre to me. I know people say odd things when under stress, so maybe it's nothing *shrugs*


Two thoughts to finish with: the police collected a lot of evidence but didn't bother testing a lot of it ....... why not? As a unit they seem to be lazy? amateurish? definitely not thorough!
Second thing: if both sides are screaming for the case to be re-opened and gone through in more detail, surely there is something badly wrong with the original handling of the case?

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It is only when you form your question precisely and accurately that you receive the true answer.

#73    Vincennes

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 08:41 PM

View PostAntilles, on 26 January 2013 - 05:51 AM, said:

Hey DM. I'll go back to the point I've made from the start, that this case IMO is all centred around the little boy's death.

Let's say his death was an accident (and I still don't buy that little boy swinging from the chandelier but anyway) it's obvious from the medical reports that no CPR was performed on Max. So Rebecca and her sister lied. I don't think there is any way around that fact. Now I don't necessarily see that as bad, it could well be that they were both scared after the accident and maybe they thought no-one would know if they hadn't helped him.

Anyway.

Are you thinking there was some sort of bondage game going on with her brother and she died accidentally?

Thanks for the welcome back Antilles, I appreciate that!

Max's death an accident....I'm pretty undecided on that.  I do agree totally I don't think he would have gone with such force to put him into that chandelier.  You know what bothers me most about that scenario is the police drawing showing the kid going over ithe balcony. Ouja mentioned that drawing also.  Why are there no heights shown on it?  It's true railings are made to keep people from going over and I think you said way back, that Max did not look like a very big kid.  If he was saying Ocean because the dog had tripped him... well maybe but I don't think a little dog would raise you and catapault you over.

I'm going to start with my thoughts on you and Ouija's texts one at a time because there are so many good points.  My first thoughts on this were also that Rebecca's death around Max's death and that there was no CPR performed.  Rebecca lied about that.  I think that is confirmed in the first responders remark that when he entered the room, Rebecca was holding Max and crying his name.  Not position to perform CPR in.  So can we all agree on those to facts?  At this point I haven't seen reason for the lie.  However, I wonder if it wasn't just that the Med had asked her that when he arrived. (1)  If it were me that might have triggered the realization of what I should have done and did not or (2) She did it because of guilt because of what had happened to Max.  Now I don't understand why the police didn't follow that up.  According to their own record.  Rebecca's sister should have been in the house at that time.  I'd sure like to see a statement from her other than she was in the shower when Max fell.

The other question you mentioned was a bondage thing going on with Adam's brother.  Well I was completely taken back with Ouija's addition that Adams' brother was a tugboat captain (You brought up the question regarding the knots way back)  Bingo, Couldn't a tugboat captain have tied them ??? Then Ouija and I were discussing the fact that this same brother in law admitted during his lie detector test, he entertained himself after he flew in to assist his brother in this time of trial.  He went back to the guest house and watched porn on his cell phone.... (????)  Now, I remember a mention way back that they found  a track on Rebecca's computer of a site for instructions for some kind of I think it was Chinese sex play  (??? )   Could that track have actually been made by the brother in law... and, yes, maybe some type of sexual attack took place in her bedroom or maybe the other bedroom in the guest house in which the bed was unmade and there were women's panties found in the trash ??  

This would take away from the supposition that Rebeccas death was caused directly because of Maxs but it might provide an answer for 1)  the knots  2)  a question that I have had why the police report shows this guys suitcase was in guest house bedroom but the bed in that room had not been slept in.  The other bedroom in the guest house had been slept in and there were women's panties in the trash.
3)  It might also answer why the second autopsy found that there had been blows to Rebecca's head that might have been serious enough to render her unconscious
In Ouija's last post she also brings up the question of how would Rebecca "slide" herself over the balcony and not leave more evidence in the dust on the balcony?  The scenario of nondisturbance of the dirt  might work if in fact someone tied her in the bedroom and then just stepped on the balcon far enough to slid her over .
No matter, I'm thinking if someone slid her over the balcony might answer another thing.  Even the original autopsy states Rebecca's neck was not broken... A slide might account for that also.

I'm going to end this post and then go to Ouija's so I don't miss anything.


#74    Vincennes

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 09:26 PM

I think that why Reb saying Max just sai "Ocean" was  very good question.  Why would she say that just to implicate a dog? Seems like if she were going to blame a dog because she hadn't been watching Max she would have said more.  Like, Max mumbled Ocean made him fall?  Just saying Ocean doesn't seem logical.

I too have often thought maybe this was an accident from Rebecca's sister and Max playing.  We only have a few kids on my street which must have been the same sitution as in this house .... So the older ones will quite regularly play with the younger ones.  That might have caused the lie.  But still, why wasn't the statement about Ocean more complete

I thought that Max's aunt seemed very believeable.  She asked about the same things I might have.  The stress level that she describes Rebecca at also seems about what I would think of as norm.... Not being able to find the hospital and such.  That brings me to another one of my thoughts.  Just a thought.... no proof.  Why wasn't Rebecca at the hospital?  I know the kid was in ICU The statement they made about that was that it was "family" only.. but even if I couldn't go in, I would have been in the waiting room.  Obviously, she didn't know where it was... so she hadn't been there at all ????  I've had people in the ICU and the "family" limits were really not enforced.  Could there have been an anomosity there.  That is in the relationship between Max's mother toward Rebecca?

Ouija, going over your post, I really think I agree with you on everything...But you brought up one other thing I have heard or read a couple of times about the loud music.  In fact one of the places I have traveled to during this discussion said that there had been a party planned for the night Max died.... and Rebecca went on and held the party.   That seems out of character after this type of accident.  I have come across the mention so infrequently, i  really thought it might be some kind of a misquote.... To cover screams... I never thought of that.!  Adam did have an older, teenage daughter.  I don't think she lived there... maybe it was her music... but it's odd that there is a reocurring menion of the loud, party/like music .
Then we have the aunt who says she went over late to the house to talk to Rebecca... and all was quite so she assumed Rebecca was in bed.  Is there a real contradiction there in stories ?  Could the need for the loud music to cover up screams have ended?

The rope.... the questions of the rope....Yeah, odd orange and looks to be synthetic... Where was that from in the house?  The plastic sack looks to be what carried in the rope but knives seem to be an odd thing to cut it with.  No me, being a clutz... I would also have at least three other pieces laying about the 1) didn't cut right  2) were too short for what I needed etc.  There seems to be no debris...  This "tidy" suicide scene has always amazed me!

I have not heard the 911 call, I will have to try to find that.  It too sounds of questions.  Also, did I understand, this brother in law claims to have used a knife that was laying in the yard??  That's pretty much bizarre!  I sure as heck would like to know where his fingerprints were found.... that would be good to throw into this equation.

My last question. I don't know much about police practices in this type of situation but why is that note blocked out in all the pictures?  And, lastly, why are the police so determined not to release information such as Max's autopsy to his own mother..... That doesn't make one bit of sence to me


I have to get busy and give up this fight on crime... My fingers are getting tired  LOL !.

I

Edited by Duncansmom, 26 January 2013 - 09:32 PM.


#75    Vincennes

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 11:29 PM

I just sat down and then started thinking.  From the posts there are a lot of things all three of us do agree on

1)  Max's death was somehow a catalyst for Rebeccas

2)  It is  not plausible that Max went over the railing and into the chandelier

3)  Rebecca did not tell the truth about the CPR

4)  The finding of suicide is not supported by the questions that remain in Rebecca's death

5)  The rope used, knives, in the room are of question and there is a question regarding the plastic bag

6)  The type of knots used to tie up Rebecca are significant and require an answer

I just see things as being totally agreed upon in all of our texts.  What other things do you see that we have ageed upon?  What don't we agree upon?

Maybe we can look for answers starting with what we agree upon as the assumed truth... Is that too bold ???  If I have mae an incorrect assumption let me know.... and I will take it off the list..

I think, guys, we can solve this.... when we are down... they will be calling on us for the answers..... LOL LOL

and I know another thing.  If you ever hear of me in such a tidy suicide scene( looking around as I finish this) LOL  Let the police know... "Lord, that's not her ... it was staged".... and ya all know I'm not suicidal... I'm laffing at the mess I ignore when I'm on line....!!!

Edited by Duncansmom, 26 January 2013 - 11:36 PM.





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