83 replies to this topic

[B Jenkins]

lozaleibou, on 23 September 2012 - 01:00 AM, said:

I'm not refuting what happened with the Shah of Iran.  But all of that happened as a direct result of how America was treating Israel at the time.   You think that you are disputing me, but God's Word is very clear.   You can choose to believe it or not, that is your choice.  

By the way, your response in no way contradicts what I said.

All you offered was superstitious mumbo-jumbo.

I remember in South America a few years ago, the roof of a church collapsed in on its congregation during one of its services killing many of its members. Was that a judgment of God? Was that a curse from God? Answer me forthright since you can deliberate the will of God and who He has cursed and who He has blessed. Oh, great seer/seeress and prophet of doom.

Edited by Ambush Bug, 23 September 2012 - 05:28 AM.

[lozaleibou]

Ambush Bug, on 23 September 2012 - 05:25 AM, said:

All you offered was superstitious mumbo-jumbo.

I remember in South America a few years ago, the roof of a church collapsed in on its congregation during one of its services killing many of its members. Was that a judgment of God? Was that a curse from God? Answer me forthright since you can deliberate the will of God and who He has cursed and who He has blessed. Oh, great seer/seeress and prophet of doom.

You sure assume quite alot, and you know what happens when you assume, right?   I never said I could deliberate the will of God, I said there were obvious corelations between my country obeying the Word of God, and disobeying the Word of God.

[B Jenkins]

lozaleibou, on 23 September 2012 - 05:42 AM, said:

You sure assume quite alot, and you know what happens when you assume, right?   I never said I could deliberate the will of God, I said there were obvious corelations between my country obeying the Word of God, and disobeying the Word of God.

That is the exact point I am making .... "your correlations" .... and I gave you an example of disaster befallen a congregation of Christians during a worship service.... maybe it is you that is assuming quite alot and you know perfectly well what happens when you assume, right?

[Cradle of Fish]

Funny, for a scripturally ensured Chosen People, nobody has persecuted them more than Christianity.

[lozaleibou]

Ambush Bug, on 23 September 2012 - 05:49 AM, said:

That is the exact point I am making .... "your correlations" .... and I gave you an example of disaster befallen a congregation of Christians during a worship service.... maybe it is you that is assuming quite alot and you know perfectly well what happens when you assume, right?

No Bug, you want me to tell you God's reasons for allowing something to happen, when I don't know the story, or God's reasons.   Ambush Bug?   Well, the name fits.   I can tell you what I know about Scripture and my personal relationship with Jesus Christ, if you actually want to know.   I can also tell you about the obvious signs that God's promises are absolutely true, if you actually want to know.   But you seem to rather want to ambush me with your own impossible scenarios, and demand that I give you an answer.   God is not a genie in a bottle, and neither am I.    

[B Jenkins]

lozaleibou, on 23 September 2012 - 06:39 AM, said:

No Bug, you want me to tell you God's reasons for allowing something to happen, when I don't know the story, or God's reasons.   Ambush Bug?   Well, the name fits.   I can tell you what I know about Scripture and my personal relationship with Jesus Christ, if you actually want to know.   I can also tell you about the obvious signs that God's promises are absolutely true, if you actually want to know.   But you seem to rather want to ambush me with your own impossible scenarios, and demand that I give you an answer.   God is not a genie in a bottle, and neither am I.

And what is wrong with Israel ending their occupations of the Golan Heights and the West Bank? They dispossessed the native populations and literally turned several millions into refugees and internally displaced persons. People that inhabited that land for at least 16 centuries. The Arab Palestinians have Hebrew blood but also have Philistine and Canaanite blood too. Their history is longer than the Jews in the region.

Palestinians are ghettoized on 12% of their original land.

The West Bank is divided up into 70 isolated cantons with no physical movement between them without Israeli permission.

There are over 500 military check points where Palestinians have to wait hours to travel short distances. Israeli settlers travel on Israeli only super highways and face no restrictions.

This disposition is reminiscent of Apartheid in South Africa, which set aside 13% of the land as "Bantustan" homelands for black South Africans.

At the center of the occupation and the apartheid system in the West Bank are Israeli settlements. More than half million Israelis  illegally and permanently live in 244 West Bank settlements. These settlements fragment Palestinian territory, bring thousands of Israeli soldiers, hundreds of check points and other restrictions to the Palestinian people.



The map below shows how the West Bank is incorporated into Israel through a series of Israeli only roads. West Bank Palestinians are not allowed to use these roads and, in many cases, even cross them. These Israeli only roads create a way for Israelis to travel to and from the illegal settlements in the West Bank. They also create two systems, separate and unequal (apartheid), and fragment the West Bank.



If the separation wall, sometimes called the annexation wall or apartheid wall, went along the Green Line (the internationally recognized boarder), it would be legal under international law. Unfortunately, it dips deep into the occupied West Bank, creating a no-man's land (seam zone) between the wall and the green line where tens of thousands of Palestinians live with little access to either Israel or the West Bank. They are often cut off from their families, jobs, school and health care.

West Bank Water Usage

• Of the water available from West Bank aquifers, Israel uses 73%, West Bank Palestinians use 17%, and illegal Jewish settlers use 10%.
  
• While 10-14% of Palestine’s GDP is agricultural, 90% of them must rely on rain-fed farming methods. Israel’s agriculture is only 3% of their GDP, but Israel irrigates more than 50% of its land.
  
• Three million West Bank Palestinians use only 250 million cubic meters per year (83 cubic meters per Palestinian per year) while six million Israelis enjoy the use of 1,954 million cubic meters (333 cubic meters per Israeli per year), which means that each Israeli consumes as much water as four Palestinians. Israeli settlers are allocated 1,450 cubic meters of water per person per year.
  
• Israel consumes the vast majority of the water from the Jordan River despite only 3% of the river falling within its pre-1967 borders. Israel now diverts one quarter of its total water consumption through its National Water Carrier from the Jordan River, whereas Palestinians have no access to it whatsoever due to Israeli closures.

“There is no reason for Palestinians to claim that just because they sit on lands, they have the rights to that water.”

– Mr. Katz-Oz, Israel’s negotiator on water issues [1]

International Law

• Under international law it is illegal for Israel to expropriate the water of the Occupied Palestinian Territories for use by its own citizens, and doubly illegal to expropriate it for use by illegal Israeli settlers [2].
  
• Also under international law, Israel owes Palestinians reparations for past and continuing use of water resources. This should include interest due to loss of earnings from farming.

Israeli Actions

• Israel does not allow new wells to be drilled by Palestinians and has confiscated many wells for Israeli use. Israel sets quotas on how much water can be drawn by Palestinians from existing wells.

Israeli settlers have no restrictions on water use.

• When supplies of water are low in the summer months, the Israeli water company Mekorot closes the valves which supply Palestinian towns and villages so as not to affect Israeli supplies. This means that illegal Israeli settlers can have their swimming pools topped up and lawns watered while Palestinians living next to them, on whose land the settlements are situated, do not have enough water for drinking and cooking.
  
• Israel often sells the water it steals from the West Bank back to the Palestinians at inflated prices.
  
• During the war of 1967, 140 Palestinian wells in the Jordan Valley were destroyed to divert water through Israel’s National Water Carrier. Palestinians were allowed to dig only 13 wells between 1967 and 1996, less than the number of wells which dried up during the same period due to Israel’s refusal to deepen or rehabilitate existing wells.
  
• The Gaza strip relies predominately on wells that are being increasingly infiltrated by salty sea water because Israel is over-pumping the groundwater. UN scientists estimate that Gaza will have no drinkable water within fifteen years.

Settlers


The main spring in the Palestinian village of Yanoun suffers damages and contamination inflicted by illegal Israeli settlers.

• In Madama village 50km north of Jerusalem settlers from Yizhar settlement have repeatedly vandalized the villager’s only source of water. They have poured concrete into it, vandalized the connecting pipes and even dropped disposable diapers and other hazardous waste into the springs. Three villagers have been attacked by settlers while trying to repair the water source [3].
  
• Constant settler attacks on the community of Yanoun, Nablus governorate, located next to the Itamar settlement, peaked in October 2002 when masked settlers charged into the village with dogs and caused significant damage to the water network, several roof tanks, and the local spring, which is considered to be the main source of water for the community. The main line supplying water to the community from the main spring, as well as the pump, reservoir, fittings and valves were all damaged by settlers. Residents of the community were forced to buy water from tankers from the neighboring community. Tanker access was very difficult due to Israeli closures and checkpoints as well as settler threats and terror which included shootings, beatings, and harassment [4].

Water and the Wall


This water reservoir, located in the village of Attil, Tulkarem district, is isolated by the Wall from the community it serves. It is in the area between the Wall and the Green Line, which Israel is attempting to annex in violation of the Road Map and of international law.

• Many of the most important underground wellsprings in the West Bank are located just to the east of the Green Line dividing Israel from Palestine. Israel has built the Wall not only to annex land but also to annex many of these wells in order to divert water to Israel and illegal West Bank settlements.
  
• The Wall is not only an Apartheid Wall, but also a water wall. Some of the largest Israeli settlements (such as Ariel and Qedumin) are built over the Western mountain aquifer, directly in the middle of the northern West Bank agricultural districts, and this is exactly where the wall cuts deepest into Palestinian territory to surround and annex this vital water source.
  
• The building of the Wall has caused the village of Falamya in Qalqiliya district to lose its main source of water. In Jayyous, a village near Falamya, all of its seven water wells have been annexed or destroyed by the Apartheid Wall.
  
• In the West Bank, around 50 groundwater wells and over 200 cisterns have been destroyed or isolated from their owners by the Wall. This water was used for domestic and agricultural needs by over 122,000 people. To build the Wall, 25 wells and cisterns and 35,000 meters of water pipes have also been destroyed [5].
  
• In 2003, the losses incurred by Palestinian farmers due to the Wall diverting water resources has been 2,200 tons of olive oil, 50,000 tons of fruit, and 100,000 tons of vegetables [6].
  
• The Wall is obstructing many water run-off flows in the Qalqiliya region that normally divert water to prevent flooding. During heavy rains in February 2005, Israeli soldiers refused to open drainage pipes in Qalqiliya, which led to heavy flood damage to crops and homes there. The Wall also caused severe flooding in Zububa and other villages.

Under the conditions brought about by the siege imposed by Israeli occupation forces, civilians in the occupied territories are suffering from lack of access to necessary resources for the maintenance of their daily needs and basic health. We have reached a state of emergency in the water sector in the Occupied Territories. We must call for an immediate end to the siege upon the water sector.

[B Jenkins]

There's 269 illegal settlements in the West Bank at last count from a Sept 2012 report. Some of the information in my previous not up to date unfortunately but irregardless factual.

[Mr Walker]

All of the above is a consequence of the palestinian/arab response to the partition of the area.

If, like me, you accept the moral/ ethical, political and historical right of the jews to return to their historical home land after ww 2,  and to share a part of it with the arab peoles there; then what flowed from that was the result of arab reactions.

ALL of the losses of territory, from the begining suffered by the palestinians, and ALL of the palestinian refugees, resulted from their attempts to eradicate the jewish settlers from day one, and their failure to accept the partition of the land. Even now the ONLY likely solution leading to peace remains a two state one, but arabs and palestinians see only the elimination of israel as  acceptable.

That is not going to happen so conflict wil continue. The jews are basically the good guys here, despite some modernist revision of history and a natural sympathy for the underdog and the present conditionof palestinians But the palestinian refugees are the rsult of their own peoles decisons and wars. In a way they are the result of miltary gambles made and lost by many arab groups including palestinians

For most of its history israel was the underdog. The wars from the beginning resulted from an arab belief that they could easily win a war with Israel Logically and statistically, they should have been right, but in every case, at great cost to both sides they were proven wrong. Israel has returned  large tracts of territory in the past, only to have nations like syria use it to try and launch military assaults and terrorist raids missile attacks etc. If i were them I wouldnt have returned any land they gained as a result of the failure of arab mlitary attacks. But they were forced to as a part of political deals made largely by america.

Most modern restrictions imposed on palestinians result from the need for israel to secure its safety They wouldnt be required if a peace  could be negotiated.

Israel is not going to go away. It is a strong nation state and one of the few western democratic forms of govt in the middle east. Both through its own efforts, and the support of western states, it will endure. Until arabs come to accpet that, then the palestinians may never be able to return home. Originally most refugees were not dispossed forcefully by israel they chose to leave rather than stay in jewish territories (inpart becaus ethey knew those areas would be attacked by arab peoples. The rest are largely the result of all the wars wars. Whereas, in most other parts of the world, wars end and people can return home, israel has been at war with  arab states since the 1940s.
The official policy of many neighbouring states remains the eradication of israel.

Israel has no such official policy, or even expressed desire, regarding its neighbours. Who then, is the cause of ongoing conflict and hence of the refugee problem in the area?


The jews are particularly used to people saying that they are the cause of all problems, and if they could just be reradicated all would be peace and light. The current events in the area demonsrate the falsity of such a premise even to those who dont know their history. Take israel out of the  eqaution and the area would stilll be a t war betwen nations and ethnic/religious divisions and still be filled with refugess Or possibly it might be uited under one dictaroal caliphate / fundamentalist  theocracy

Edited by Mr Walker, 24 September 2012 - 12:41 AM.

[B Jenkins]

Mr Walker, on 24 September 2012 - 12:24 AM, said:

All of the above is a consequence of the palestinian/arab response to the partition of the area.

If, like me, you accept the moral/ ethical, political and historical right of the jews to return to their historical home land after ww 2,  and to share a part of it with the arab peoles there; then what flowed from that was the result of arab reactions.

ALL of the losses of territory, from the begining suffered by the palestinians, and ALL of the palestinian refugees, resulted from their attempts to eradicate the jewish settlers from day one, and their failure to accept the partition of the land. Even now the ONLY likely solution leading to peace remains a two state one, but arabs and palestinians see only the elimination of israel as  acceptable.

That is not going to happen so conflict wil continue. The jews are basically the good guys here, despite some modernist revision of history and a natural sympathy for the underdog and the present conditionof palestinians But the palestinian refugees are the rsult of their own peoles decisons and wars. In a way they are the result of miltary gambles made and lost by many arab groups including palestinians

For most of its history israel was the underdog. The wars from the beginning resulted from an arab belief that they could easily win a war with Israel Logically and statistically, they should have been right, but in every case, at great cost to both sides they were proven wrong. Israel has returned  large tracts of territory in the past, only to have nations like syria use it to try and launch military assaults and terrorist raids missile attacks etc. If i were them I wouldnt have returned any land they gained as a result of the failure of arab mlitary attacks. But they were forced to as a part of political deals made largely by america.

Most modern restrictions imposed on palestinians result from the need for israel to secure its safety They wouldnt be required if a peace  could be negotiated.

Israel is not going to go away. It is a strong nation state and one of the few western democratic forms of govt in the middle east. Both through its own efforts, and the support of western states, it will endure. Until arabs come to accpet that, then the palestinians may never be able to return home. Originally most refugees were not dispossed forcefully by israel they chose to leave rather than stay in jewish territories (inpart becaus ethey knew those areas would be attacked by arab peoples. The rest are largely the result of all the wars wars. Whereas, in most other parts of the world, wars end and people can return home, israel has been at war with  arab states since the 1940s.
The official policy of many neighbouring states remains the eradication of israel.

Israel has no such official policy, or even expressed desire, regarding its neighbours. Who then, is the cause of ongoing conflict and hence of the refugee problem in the area?


The jews are particularly used to people saying that they are the cause of all problems, and if they could just be reradicated all would be peace and light. The current events in the area demonsrate the falsity of such a premise even to those who dont know their history. Take israel out of the  eqaution and the area would stilll be a t war betwen nations and ethnic/religious divisions and still be filled with refugess Or possibly it might be uited under one dictaroal caliphate / fundamentalist  theocracy

Let me address one question to you Mr Walker, lets trade Palestine for Australia...

Australia is suddenly receiving a huge influx of immigrants (many illegal), over a 32 year period the population of these immigrants rises from just 7.6% to 33% of the total population of Australia.

These immigrants through charity and international funds buy approximately 7% of Australian land. And on this land, they fire all the Australian laborers and hire only their fellow immigrants ... creating many disgruntled and unhappy land laborers rendering them homeless. Whole families that worked those lands for generations.

But then the UN partitions Australia, by demanding of Australia, "we are going to split Australia into two states, partition it into two, but hey catch this we are going to give an additional 48% of land in Australia to the 7% immigrant landowners who are only 33% of the population of Australia. You, Australians, are going to be keep the remaining 45%. Additionally, the 54% of land given to the 7% immigrant landowners who now make 33% of the population of Australia will have the highest agricultural producing land in all of Australia."

And it is all because these immigrants once lived in the land 1,600 years ago even they themselves werent the original inhabitants as there were inhabitants in Australia (remember Palestine is now Australia) already 1,000s of years before even these immigrants made their mass migrations from Mesopotamia. In fact, you (Australians = Arab Palestinians) are the descendents of the original inhabitants.

Now these immigrants only enjoyed but one golden age during their whole time there under a King David and his son King Solomon. This golden age comparative to other empires was extremely shortlived (i.e. Roman, Egyptian, Greek, Persian, Akkadian, Babylonian, Assyrian, Byzantine, Ottoman, etc) as it lasted 73 years in all before it disintegrated into two smaller states that stood between 200-300 years but never regained the power, greatness, and grandeur of that one single golden age.

How would Australians react to this?

Edited by Ambush Bug, 24 September 2012 - 06:00 AM.

[Mr Walker]

Ambush Bug, on 24 September 2012 - 05:55 AM, said:

Let me address one question to you Mr Walker, lets trade Palestine for Australia...

Australia is suddenly receiving a huge influx of immigrants (many illegal), over a 32 year period the population of these immigrants rises from just 7.6% to 33% of the total population of Australia.

These immigrants through charity and international funds buy approximately 7% of Australian land. And on this land, they fire all the Australian laborers and hire only their fellow immigrants ... creating many disgruntled and unhappy land laborers rendering them homeless. Whole families that worked those lands for generations.

But then the UN partitions Australia, by demanding of Australia, "we are going to split Australia into two states, partition it into two, but hey catch this we are going to give an additional 48% of land in Australia to the 7% immigrant landowners who are only 33% of the population of Australia. You, Australians, are going to be keep the remaining 45%. Additionally, the 54% of land given to the 7% immigrant landowners who now make 33% of the population of Australia will have the highest agricultural producing land in all of Australia."

And it is all because these immigrants once lived in the land 1,600 years ago even they themselves werent the original inhabitants as there were inhabitants in Australia (remember Palestine is now Australia) already 1,000s of years before even these immigrants made their mass migrations from Mesopotamia. In fact, you (Australians = Arab Palestinians) are the descendents of the original inhabitants.

Now these immigrants only enjoyed but one golden age during their whole time there under a King David and his son King Solomon. This golden age comparative to other empires was extremely shortlived (i.e. Roman, Egyptian, Greek, Persian, Akkadian, Babylonian, Assyrian, Byzantine, Ottoman, etc) as it lasted 73 years in all before it disintegrated into two smaller states that stood between 200-300 years but never regained the power, greatness, and grandeur of that one single golden age.

How would Australians react to this?

You have just described australia AS IT IS.  Heck we let complete foreigners buy parts of australia bigger than many european nations.
http://www.dailytele...i-1226281573668

http://www.crikey.co...lling-the-farm/
While a bit more than  60 % of australians remain from anglo celtic descent, there are increasing percentages of people from all races and continents including many muslims. Allowing for 2% indigenous peoples, over 33% of australians HAVE come from, or are descended from people of non anglo celtic descent. Over 24% of present day austrlaians  were not born here, but migrated here or came as refugees to live here. We have the second highest refugee intake, per capita, in the world. (According to our foreign minister.)
Because we have a multicultural policy which asks migrants to first of all be austrlaians, and follow our laws and democratic systems; but alos celebrate and add to austrlaias diversity, every part of their own culture and share it with us, we live (mostly) in harmony.  Legally there is no dicrimnation allowed on race religion etc in australia. You cant be hired or fired on the basis of race or religion or discriminated against ecause of your beliefs or practises. You cant be asked to give up your dress or any part of your way of life unless it conflicts with overall  australian laws. (So, for example, female genital mutilation and child marriages are not allowed)

You'd be better off asking an indigenous australian how they feel. As for me, I know many races and cultures can live together in one democratic society and be united rather than divided.

Ps there is no public record or register of foreign ownership in Australia because no one cares enough to establish one, but over 10% of agricultural land is owned by overseas companies and investors.

Edited by Mr Walker, 24 September 2012 - 09:28 AM.

[B Jenkins]

Mr Walker, on 24 September 2012 - 09:00 AM, said:

You have just described australia AS IT IS.  Heck we let complete foreigners buy parts of australia bigger than many european nations While a bit more than  60 % of australians remain from anglo celticc descent there are increasing percentages of peole from all races and continents including many muslims. Allowing for 2% indigenous peoples over 33% of australians HAVE come from other countries to live here. We have the second highest refugee intake, per capita, in the world. (According to our foreign minister.)
Because we have a multicultural policy which asks migrants to first of all be austrlaians, and follow our laws and democratic systems; but alos celebrate and add to austrlaias diversity, every part of their own culture and share it with us, we live (mostly) in harmony.  Legally there is no dicrimnation allowed on race religion etc in australia. You cant be hired or fired on the basis of race or religion or discriminated against ecause of your beliefs or practises. You cant be asked to give up your dress or any part of your way of life unless it conflicts with overall  australian laws. (So, for example, female genital mutilation and child marriages are not allowed)

You'd be better off asking an indigenous australian how they feel. As for me, I know many races and cultures can live together in one democratic society and be united rather than divided.

Ps there is no public record or register of foreign ownership in Australia because no one cares enough to establish one, but over 10% of agricultural land is owned by overseas companies and investors.

How unfortunate for the Arab Israelis as they dont enjoy that same democracy in Israel.

The Palestinian Arab Minority in Israel Inequality Report --> http://www.scribd.co...equality-Report

This PDF is loaded with facts and take about 20-30 minutes to read.

[and then]

ranrod, on 20 September 2012 - 05:17 PM, said:

Are you Jewish?  If not, why not?
Say the Jewish are correct.   Only they ascend to heaven.  If you're not Jewish, you won't get in.  On the other hand, if the Jewish are wrong about Jesus, and you are a devout follower of God (being Jewish), would God turn you away?  You would be part of the "chosen people" and you spent a life devoted to him. Why would he turn you away?  To me the win-win scenario if you believe in the god of Abraham would be to convert to Judaism.

Good question...in fact, very good.  No I am not Jewish and feel that they are in error in their belief.  I also believe that they, a remnant anyway, will finally recognize Jesus Christ as their Messiah in the end times.  I believe the predictions of the Bible regarding God's chosen people AND His church.  Many Christians have the false, imo, belief that the Christian church "replaced" Israel and that the promises made to the Jews were lost due to disobedience.  This is not so.  I believe that God chose Israel because of the obedience and faith of Abraham.  He then used them as a living example of how He deals with humanity.  Their blessings are yet to come.  I disagree with much that the government of Israel does.  I don't understand much of what God does.... but I accept my place in the scheme of things and trust that it will be explained in time.  Those who cannot do so - I do not judge.

[Mr Walker]

Ambush Bug, on 24 September 2012 - 09:30 AM, said:

How unfortunate for the Arab Israelis as they dont enjoy that same democracy in Israel.

The Palestinian Arab Minority in Israel Inequality Report --> http://www.scribd.co...equality-Report

This PDF is loaded with facts and take about 20-30 minutes to read.

There about 1.5 million arab citizens of Israel (mostly muslim) who make up about 20% of the population. These are descendants of arabs who remained within israeli borders during the early wars and did not become dispossed refugees. They have the same  democratic rights as all israeli citizens. (In my understanding) Palestinian refugees who are not citizens do not have those rights to participate in democratic decision making, nor would they /do they, in any other country where palestinian refugees reside.

What is more
Most of the Arabs living in East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights, occupied by Israel since the Six-Day War of 1967, were offered Israeli citizenship, but refused, not wanting to recognize Israeli sovereignty. They became permanent residents.^[9] They are entitled to municipal services and have municipal voting rights.^{[10
http://en.wikipedia....izens_of_Israel
In other words, many arabs could have accepted participation in Israeli democracy via citizen ship but refused to do so. It is not that israel refused to allow them the full rights of democratic particpation, even though having 20% of therr  citizens arab, makes many israelis very nervous.}

[B Jenkins]

Mr Walker, on 24 September 2012 - 12:12 PM, said:

There about 1.5 million arab citizens of Israel (mostly muslim) who make up about 20% of the population. These are descendants of arabs who remained within israeli borders during the early wars and did not become dispossed refugees. They have the same  democratic rights as all israeli citizens. (In my understanding) Palestinian refugees who are not citizens do not have those rights to participate in democratic decision making, nor would they /do they, in any other country where palestinian refugees reside.

What is more
Most of the Arabs living in East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights, occupied by Israel since the Six-Day War of 1967, were offered Israeli citizenship, but refused, not wanting to recognize Israeli sovereignty. They became permanent residents.^[9] They are entitled to municipal services and have municipal voting rights.^{[10
http://en.wikipedia....izens_of_Israel
In other words, many arabs could have accepted participation in Israeli democracy via citizen ship but refused to do so. It is not that israel refused to allow them the full rights of democratic particpation, even though having 20% of therr  citizens arab, makes many israelis very nervous.}

Israel is notoriously known amongst the international community for its discriminatory laws. Read that PDF I posted.

Furthermore, the problem I would never rely on wikipedia for any political or historical information as it is notoriously full of misinformation. I sometimes post a link from wikipedia sometimes out of sheer convenience especially if I feel it is  not too glaringly bad information wise.

And another thing you have obviously overlooked is that the West Bank and East Jerusalem are an occupation. East Jerusalem and the West Bank do not belong to Israel, Israel can not declare either within its borders nor annex it. It is militarily occupied territories. However, here lies the controversy, Israel has erected 269 illegal settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem. There are more than half a million Israeli Jews illegally residing in those settlements. Golan Heights too. Israel claims it annexed the Golan Heights. But international community says NO! the Golan Heights is occupied territory.

So we have to ask ourselves why would the Arab Palestinians in the West Bank and East Jerusalem want to become civilians of Israel thus recognizing Israeli sovereignty when these Arab Palestinians live under Israeli occupation?????

That would be foolish and suicidal to what the future may hold for the possibility of a Palestinian state existing. The occupied Arab Palestinians did the right and wise thing. Bear the occupancy with stiff upper lip and head held high and hope despite it being the longest running occupancy ever now 45 years and running that has survived 2 centuries will end for the sake of human dignity and human rights.

Edited by Ambush Bug, 24 September 2012 - 09:13 PM.

[lozaleibou]

Ambush Bug, on 23 September 2012 - 10:42 PM, said:

And what is wrong with Israel ending their occupations of the Golan Heights and the West Bank?

Actually, ALL of that land belonged to Israel before it was taken from them, so they are just taking band what is rightfully theirs!