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[Merged]Afterlife exists says top brain surgeon


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#166    White Crane Feather

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 06:46 PM

View Postfullywired, on 23 October 2012 - 05:34 PM, said:



I have no intention of entering a slanging match with you about what is logical and what is not but I will take the experts view on the matter which coincides with my own musings and leave you to your own views however mistaken they are
      May all your NDEs be happy ones :lol:

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Actually I make a habit not to even mention logic unless the other person suggest I or my viewpoint is illogical. I don't press that button unless someone else wants to go there.  You continue  to do that I'm sure there are many "experts" on NDEs the correspond with with both view points. This thread started about a brain surgeon, did it not? And as long as you trust things that correspond with your own musings then I'm sure you will have quit the ability to determin who is mistaken and who is not. Fortunately, we do have ways to critically analyze arguments and wade through bias rhetoric.

And I am certain that yours will be aswell. You seem pretty genuine, honest, and well meaning so I'm sure upon death you will be pleasantly surprised, and if I can I'll drop in and say I told you so. :D :D :D

Edited by Seeker79, 23 October 2012 - 06:49 PM.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
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#167    Artaxerxes

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 07:01 PM

I have long since quit caring what skeptics believe or say. I don't even bother to read what they write. If they have decided that they don't believe.... it is their loss. If they want to go through life not believing, it is their right. I don't care. We will all find out the truth when it comes out turn to cross over, and trust me, it will come soon enough.

Life is a vapor, a mist, and we are only here for a short while. The blink of an eye compared to eternity. I will soon be 60 years old and I think back to my college years, which were the happiest time of my life, and it doesn't seem that long ago. It is difficult for me to believe it was 40 years ago. Where did the time go?

So, I just have to wait a little longer and I will have my answers. We will see who was right and who was wrong. For now it is irrelevant what anyone else espouses. What matters is what is in my own heart. Because I am the only one that has to live with myself. I am just trying to live in this world, and believing that one day I will see my mother again makes life a little easier.


#168    Artaxerxes

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 07:03 PM

"Glimpses of Eternity". That is what we are allowed to see. Reminds me of the game "whack-a-mole" where just when you think you've got one "mole" whacked another one pops up it's head. Just when the skeptics think they've silenced Pam Reynold's NDE - Dr. Eben Alexander and Dr. Mary Neal, a neurosurgeon and an orthopedic surgeon pop up their heads and say "it's all real, I've been there!"
The skeptics have their work cut out for them. It's not one line of evidence but a whole picture puzzle of pieces that all fit together to give us a glimpse of eternity that seem to tell us that this life is not all there is.

Mediums, Near Death Experiences, death bed visions, after death communications, mystical and transcendental experiences, and yes even reincarnation stories (as much as I dislike the idea of it) all seem to tell us that our life doesn't end with the death of the physical body.  So let the skeptics rant and rave. I doubt very much that they will be able to silence the other side. There will always be "glimpses of eternity" for us to ponder what lies beyond the grave.

Edited by Artaxerxes, 23 October 2012 - 07:04 PM.


#169    White Crane Feather

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 07:09 PM

View PostArtaxerxes, on 23 October 2012 - 07:03 PM, said:

"Glimpses of Eternity". That is what we are allowed to see. Reminds me of the game "whack-a-mole" where just when you think you've got one "mole" whacked another one pops up it's head. Just when the skeptics think they've silenced Pam Reynold's NDE - Dr. Eben Alexander and Dr. Mary Neal, a neurosurgeon and an orthopedic surgeon pop up their heads and say "it's all real, I've been there!"
The skeptics have their work cut out for them. It's not one line of evidence but a whole picture puzzle of pieces that all fit together to give us a glimpse of eternity that seem to tell us that this life is not all there is.

Mediums, Near Death Experiences, death bed visions, after death communications, mystical and transcendental experiences, and yes even reincarnation stories (as much as I dislike the idea of it) all seem to tell us that our life doesn't end with the death of the physical body.  So let the skeptics rant and rave. I doubt very much that they will be able to silence the other side. There will always be "glimpses of eternity" for us to ponder what lies beyond the grave.
Well said. There really isn't any proof or valid arguments agsinst the spiritual inturpretation of all that you mentioned, not really a shred that holds up to scrutinty. Skeptics are right to ask the questions, but getting creative and not holding themselves to the same standards that they point their skepticism at unfortunately, for most, has become the norm.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
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#170    fullywired

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 12:25 PM

View PostSeeker79, on 23 October 2012 - 06:46 PM, said:

. I'm sure upon death you will be pleasantly surprised, and if I can I'll drop in and say I told you so. :D :D :D

"Therein lies the rub" we both won't  know

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-------Buddha (563 - 483 BC)

#171    fullywired

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 12:29 PM

View PostArtaxerxes, on 23 October 2012 - 07:01 PM, said:

I have long since quit caring what skeptics believe or say. I don't even bother to read what they write.
.
Then what are you doing in this section?

  fullywired

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"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense."
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#172    White Crane Feather

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 04:57 PM

View Postfullywired, on 24 October 2012 - 12:25 PM, said:



"Therein lies the rub" we both won't  know

                                   fullywired
Unless you to have one of these experiences, then your last thought will be "holy ****, that seeker guy was right" then you will wink out of existence.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
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#173    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 09:39 AM

View PostAlienated Being, on 09 October 2012 - 11:59 PM, said:

Consciousness after death simply is not possible.

How do you know that...prove me?

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#174    Cybele

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 09:58 PM

View PostSeeker79, on 23 October 2012 - 07:09 PM, said:

Well said. There really isn't any proof or valid arguments agsinst the spiritual inturpretation of all that you mentioned, not really a shred that holds up to scrutinty. Skeptics are right to ask the questions, but getting creative and not holding themselves to the same standards that they point their skepticism at unfortunately, for most, has become the norm.

It's not really about providing evidence against a point of view, it's about the quality of evidence for a belief. Some people find anecdotes convincing, others don't.

Skepticism itself requires no evidence; it should be a default position. However, if you are refuting an explanation based in spiritualism and replacing it with an explanation based in scientific materialism, you should be able to provide evidence for the latter belief. People who are invested in the former interpretation will brush-off or interpret scientific evidence to conform to their beliefs (confirmation bias) and vice-versa. Thus, these types of discussions are often futile exercises which result in little more than mounting hostility.

I think it's near worthless, in terms of adding credibility, that the near death experiencer in this case was a neuro-scientist. Doctors aren't infallible in terms of memory or judgment. I think a fairly good alternate explanation for this case is described in the following blog (also written by a neuroscientist):

http://theness.com/n...roof-of-heaven/

Edited by Cybele, 27 October 2012 - 10:00 PM.

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#175    White Crane Feather

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 10:06 PM

View PostCybele, on 27 October 2012 - 09:58 PM, said:



It's not really about providing evidence against a point of view, it's about the quality of evidence for a belief. Some people find anecdotes convincing, others don't.

Skepticism itself requires no evidence; it should be a default position. However, if you are refuting an explanation based in spiritualism and replacing it with an explanation based in scientific materialism, you should be able to provide evidence for the latter belief. People who are invested in the former interpretation will brush-off or interpret scientific evidence to conform to their beliefs (confirmation bias) and vice-versa. Thus, these types of discussions are often futile exercises which result in little more than mounting hostility.

I think it's near worthless, in terms of adding credibility, that the near death experiencer in this case was a neuro-scientist. Doctors aren't infallible in terms of memory or judgment. I think a fairly good alternate explanation for this case is described in the following blog (also written by a neuroscientist):

http://theness.com/n...roof-of-heaven/
No but you can be creative and come up with all sorts of unsubstantiated rhetoric while assuming the conclusion because of personal bias.

Most everything in that article I have already logically addressed in these threads. Thats how arguments work. Repeating the same material over and over again without addressing the argument against that particular argument is just stubborn and only prooves that the arguments can not stand by themselves without bias to support them.

Some more examples from the article cited above. Trying not to repeat the things I have already addressed.

"Alexander claims there is no scientific explanation for his experiences, but I just gave one"

He absolutely did not!!!! He did not give a "scientific" explanation, he gave creative conjecture within the realms of his specific philosophy. Remember... Science is based on empiricism. Unless he has some sort of proof this is what happened inside the doctors brain it's just being creative. Its also dogmatic to insist that a materialist  inturpretation is authoritative over others with out proof.

"The “hyper-vivid” description is also common of altered brain states."

WeLl yeah!!! An NDE is an altered state of conciousness. It's perfectly consistent with the brain as a receiver view.

"Even though he says he was not a devout Christian before the experience, his experience is strangely consistent with the cultural norms of his background"

And strangely consistent with many other NDEs and altered states  from Buddhists to native Americans to African tribesmen. Shhheeesh you have to wonder If skeptics read anything other than their skeptical own material. Did you mention selection or confirmation bias ?

"Addressing his one major unstated premise, that the experienced occurred while his cortex was inactive, demolishes his claims and his interpretation of his experience."

Even If the experience happened while there was actual brain function, as I have repeatedly reminded everyone..... So what!!!! First off he has not a single shred of evidence that this was the case or not other then a belief that experiences  can only happen while the brain is functional ( yet another example of assuming the conclusion). Indeed IF experiences can occure in a spirit realm quit obviously they are not going to be downloaded ( for lak of a better word) until the brain is functional again. This is a well known attribute in altered state practice.

Again his arguments are entirely consistent with what would be expected with the alternate view point. Nor are they very sophisticated or new. He is basically pulling straight from blackmores book that is an extreme example of "scientific??  " rhetoric and philosophical bias. Here is a critic of her book.

http://near-death.co...rticles001.html

Edited by Seeker79, 28 October 2012 - 10:08 PM.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#176    White Crane Feather

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 10:22 PM

View PostCybele, on 27 October 2012 - 09:58 PM, said:

People who are invested in the former interpretation will brush-off or interpret scientific evidence to conform to their beliefs (confirmation bias) and vice-versa. Thus, these types of discussions are often futile exercises which result in little more than mounting hostility.
I agree totally. Any philosophical bias is going to create confirmation bias, not just with spiritual but with materialistic ones aswell. This is why the arguments have to be addressed on their own merits. The arguments for the dying brain hypothesis do not hold up to logical scrutiny when one looks at the arguments without philosophical bias. This leaves us with the experience itself. Then we have to look at the other logical circumstances surrounding the phenomenon without getting creative with a load of Mabys and statistically unlikely circumstsnces though we can't  totally rule them out.

Edited by Seeker79, 28 October 2012 - 10:23 PM.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#177    GIDEON MAGE

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 03:34 AM

Atque ego quidem arbitror esse possumus cogitare aliquid ultra realitatem. Prope iam non experiri, sed ex jurata opinor.

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#178    Ashotep

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 07:58 PM

I became totally convinced of the afterlife when I saw a ghost.


#179    rachelkleypassparrow

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 07:10 PM

I had an NDE in 1999. D.C. still on my records,but I get periods of OBE's that were more prevalent after the NDE.


#180    rachelkleypassparrow

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 07:16 PM

I am on my mobile which limits me;what I experienced was so profound that I do not fear death and our bodies are husks.

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