Jump to content




Welcome to Unexplained Mysteries! Please sign in or create an account to start posting and to access a host of extra features.


* * * - - 2 votes

15 States have filed a petition to secede


  • Please log in to reply
99 replies to this topic

#76    Valdemar the Great

Valdemar the Great

    Commander in the Secret Space Fleet

  • Member
  • 24,488 posts
  • Joined:09 May 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:The Sea of Okhotsk

  • Vampires are people too.

Posted 15 November 2012 - 04:24 PM

View PostRavenHawk, on 15 November 2012 - 04:10 PM, said:

It's not really capitalism as it was just industrialization.  It was the means of production that was controlled by the state.  The wealthy were part of the Party or the ruling elite.  Capitalism is more in line with a freer market system.  In a free market system, the economy is driven by a well educated consumer, not by the state directing it.
It may not have been a free Market, but production of (for example) new designs of tanks or aircraft was done very much on the basis of each company putting forward their own competing designs, and them being selected after evaluation by the military- the competing designs of the Tiger, for instance, from Henschel and Porsche. This could be rather wasteful, with production effort being wasted on constructing several prototypes that no one then wanted, and was probably one big reason why they were out-produced by the U.S, which had a much more centrally controlled system; the Army came up with a design (e.g. the Sherman, crap as it was), and then dozens of firms constructed it. With aircraft it was a similar system to Germany, but after the favoured design was chosen many differnet firms were ordered by the Govt. to produce them, so that too was in effect pretty centrally controlled. Really an effective wartime economy can only be constructed by throwing the Free market out of the window (not to mention Democracy).

Life is a hideous business, and from the background behind what we know of it peer daemoniacal hints of truth which make it sometimes a thousandfold more hideous.

H. P. Lovecraft.


Posted Image


#77    RavenHawk

RavenHawk

    Poltergeist

  • Member
  • 2,978 posts
  • Joined:09 Aug 2011
  • Gender:Not Selected

Posted 15 November 2012 - 04:36 PM

View Postquestionmark, on 15 November 2012 - 04:18 PM, said:

    cap∑i∑tal∑ism
kap-i-tl-iz-uhm] an economic system in which investment in and ownership of the means of production, distribution, and exchange of wealth is made and maintained by private individuals or corporations, especially as contrasted to cooperatively or state-owned means of wealth.

Industrialism is not a political but a economic definition.
Exactly!  Just as I stated.  Now armed with that, go back and try to understand what is being said.

"I don't see one link on this thread providing one shred of evidence for the disgusting jew-hate BS you Zionist liars keep accusing me of." - Yamato
"%&* YOU and your empty suited insults about "racism" you Islamophobic Zionist freak." - Yamato

#78    Corp

Corp

    Telekinetic

  • Member
  • 6,951 posts
  • Joined:19 Jun 2008
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ottawa

Posted 15 November 2012 - 04:55 PM

You think universal health care is oppression but the Patroit Act is just fine? Wow...

War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things: the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth a war, is much worse...A man who has nothing which he is willing to fight for, nothing which he cares more about than he does about his personal safety, is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.

#79    keithisco

keithisco

    Majestic 12 Operative

  • Member
  • 5,826 posts
  • Joined:06 May 2007
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Rincon de Loix, Benidorm

Posted 15 November 2012 - 04:59 PM

View PostRavenHawk, on 15 November 2012 - 04:22 PM, said:

I'm hardly a world traveler but I had made visits to England, Germany, and Italy.  I saw the oppression there.  It was albeit subtle but it was there.  You don't have to be in England to know it.  Things like their gun controls and NHS.  But Italy was something else.  You could see the oppression just dripping off the people.  Now, the people were all normal and they were very hospitable.  I would definitely go back.  They're a very beautiful people.  It's something that I can't really put into words but it was something that you could actually feel.  It was like an acceptance of their fate and their fate was subjugation.  

You have never actually been to these countries have you?? You are just reciting NRA Propoganda aren't you??... :passifier:
Gun control has always been a feature in Europe, the NHS is an absolute "GodSend" where you do NOT lose all of your life - savings and home due to an illness or injury, no - one feels "subjugated" but after my recent 4 weeks in the USofA I know what "Subjugation" REALLY feels like.

Next time I would advise that you post from real, not imagined, experience because you have just made yourself look very foolish! :yes:

Edited by keithisco, 15 November 2012 - 05:00 PM.


#80    questionmark

questionmark

    Cinicus Magnus

  • Member
  • 35,303 posts
  • Joined:26 Jun 2007
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Greece and Des Moines, IA

  • In a flat world there is an explanation to everything.

Posted 15 November 2012 - 05:01 PM

View PostRavenHawk, on 15 November 2012 - 04:10 PM, said:

It's not really capitalism as it was just industrialization.  It was the means of production that was controlled by the state.  The wealthy were part of the Party or the ruling elite.  Capitalism is more in line with a freer market system.  In a free market system, the economy is driven by a well educated consumer, not by the state directing it.

View PostRavenHawk, on 15 November 2012 - 04:36 PM, said:

Exactly!  Just as I stated.  Now armed with that, go back and try to understand what is being said.

Then you did it quite awkwardly, because neither Nazi Germany had a state controlled economy nor the US at the time.

A skeptic is a well informed believer and a pessimist a well informed optimist
The most dangerous views of the world are from those who have never seen it. ~ Alexander v. Humboldt
If you want to bulls**t me please do it so that it takes me more than a minute to find out

about me

#81    RavenHawk

RavenHawk

    Poltergeist

  • Member
  • 2,978 posts
  • Joined:09 Aug 2011
  • Gender:Not Selected

Posted 15 November 2012 - 05:12 PM

View Post747400, on 15 November 2012 - 04:24 PM, said:

It may not have been a free Market, but production of (for example) new designs of tanks or aircraft was done very much on the basis of each company putting forward their own competing designs, and them being selected after evaluation by the military- the competing designs of the Tiger, for instance, from Henschel and Porsche. This could be rather wasteful, with production effort being wasted on constructing several prototypes that no one then wanted, and was probably one big reason why they were out-produced by the U.S, which had a much more centrally controlled system; the Army came up with a design (e.g. the Sherman, crap as it was), and then dozens of firms constructed it. With aircraft it was a similar system to Germany, but after the favoured design was chosen many differnet firms were ordered by the Govt. to produce them, so that too was in effect pretty centrally controlled. Really an effective wartime economy can only be constructed by throwing the Free market out of the window (not to mention Democracy).
Competition isnít only a hallmark of Capitalism.  You had members of the same Party vying for favorability in the Party.  That is certainly competition but it is hardly a free market.  Initially competition may be wasteful but in the long run, it proves to be more efficient.  There are just times in which time and need requires by-passing the competitiveness part.  But war has different requirements as well.  You canít run industry under a strictly capitalist system.  The difference is that say, in Germany, the state owned industry and in American industry and government worked together with government being the leading entity.  Business was not owned by Party members but remained in the private sector.

"I don't see one link on this thread providing one shred of evidence for the disgusting jew-hate BS you Zionist liars keep accusing me of." - Yamato
"%&* YOU and your empty suited insults about "racism" you Islamophobic Zionist freak." - Yamato

#82    Valdemar the Great

Valdemar the Great

    Commander in the Secret Space Fleet

  • Member
  • 24,488 posts
  • Joined:09 May 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:The Sea of Okhotsk

  • Vampires are people too.

Posted 15 November 2012 - 05:39 PM

View PostRavenHawk, on 15 November 2012 - 05:12 PM, said:

Competition isn't only a hallmark of Capitalism.  You had members of the same Party vying for favorability in the Party.  That is certainly competition but it is hardly a free market.  Initially competition may be wasteful but in the long run, it proves to be more efficient.  There are just times in which time and need requires by-passing the competitiveness part.  But war has different requirements as well.  You can't run industry under a strictly capitalist system.  The difference is that say, in Germany, the state owned industry and in American industry and government worked together with government being the leading entity.  Business was not owned by Party members but remained in the private sector.
This may be wandering somewhat off topic by now, but industry in Germany wasn't state owned; in fact, some of it (e.g. Ford and Opel) was American owned. American industry was more state controlled, effectively, really.  But this is steadily becoming less and less to do with 15 states filing petitions, i suppose.

Life is a hideous business, and from the background behind what we know of it peer daemoniacal hints of truth which make it sometimes a thousandfold more hideous.

H. P. Lovecraft.


Posted Image


#83    questionmark

questionmark

    Cinicus Magnus

  • Member
  • 35,303 posts
  • Joined:26 Jun 2007
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Greece and Des Moines, IA

  • In a flat world there is an explanation to everything.

Posted 15 November 2012 - 05:41 PM

View Post747400, on 15 November 2012 - 05:39 PM, said:

This may be wandering somewhat off topic by now, but industry in Germany wasn't state owned; in fact, some of it (e.g. Ford and Opel) was American owned. American industry was more state controlled, effectively, really.  But this is steadily becoming less and less to do with 15 states filing petitions, i suppose.

That is, because excluding the novelty effect, those petitions are hardly relevant, so the thread digresses in all directions :devil:

A skeptic is a well informed believer and a pessimist a well informed optimist
The most dangerous views of the world are from those who have never seen it. ~ Alexander v. Humboldt
If you want to bulls**t me please do it so that it takes me more than a minute to find out

about me

#84    Bama13

Bama13

    Psychic Spy

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,623 posts
  • Joined:09 Aug 2011
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Just Southeast of God's country

Posted 15 November 2012 - 06:28 PM

View Postkeithisco, on 15 November 2012 - 04:59 PM, said:

You have never actually been to these countries have you?? You are just reciting NRA Propoganda aren't you??... :passifier:
Gun control has always been a feature in Europe, the NHS is an absolute "GodSend" where you do NOT lose all of your life - savings and home due to an illness or injury, no - one feels "subjugated" but after my recent 4 weeks in the USofA I know what "Subjugation" REALLY feels like.

Next time I would advise that you post from real, not imagined, experience because you have just made yourself look very foolish! :yes:

You have never actually been to the US have you? You are just spouting EU propaganda.

Next time I would advise that you post from real, not imagined, experience because you now look more foolish than RavenHawk.

Dang, it is so easy to talk smack to other posters. Call them liars even though you have no clue as to whether they are lying or not.

" Mighty little force is needed to control a man whose mind has been hoodwinked; contrariwise, no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything —you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him" - Robert Heinlein

#85    RavenHawk

RavenHawk

    Poltergeist

  • Member
  • 2,978 posts
  • Joined:09 Aug 2011
  • Gender:Not Selected

Posted 15 November 2012 - 08:46 PM

View Postkeithisco, on 15 November 2012 - 04:59 PM, said:

You have never actually been to these countries have you?? You are just reciting NRA Propoganda aren't you??... :passifier:
Gun control has always been a feature in Europe, the NHS is an absolute "GodSend" where you do NOT lose all of your life - savings and home due to an illness or injury, no - one feels "subjugated" but after my recent 4 weeks in the USofA I know what "Subjugation" REALLY feels like.

Next time I would advise that you post from real, not imagined, experience because you have just made yourself look very foolish! :yes:
Oh, this precious.  I donít think you were here Ė DOH!  Yeah, Iíve been imaging it all.  I was in England and Germany years ago in the late 80s.  It was a short trip, so no, I didnít see gun control or NHS in action.  That is why I said ďyou donít have to be there to know thatĒ.  But I did see how that affected the British psyche and that stuck with me when I was in Italy many years later in the mid 00s.  I saw that same thing afflict the Italians that I did the Brits.  It reaffirmed ďthe curseĒ over the people.  And ďthe curseĒ comes from Thomas Harlanís ďOath of EmpireĒ series.  That is the closest that I have been able to come to explaining it in words.  

How many people die waiting to see a doctor?  Whatís the queue like over there?  Itís not a GodSend.  People will die and you canít stop it but aggravating it is not for America.  Weíre just now having to deal with Obamacare.  My premiums have dropped a little but my out-of-pocket has skyrocketed.  Iíve never spent that much with the old insurance.  Iím basically screwed Ė it wonít pay to be healthy.  Just get into the program and take a pill for whatever.  This is a GodSend?  No it is not.  It is entrapment and enslavement.  I donít need the government telling me how to take care of my body.  My standards have been higher anyway.

What you felt was freedom.  It still exists over here.  You were out of the comfort zone of your nanny state so that is what you were feeling.  It was the same for me being over there, but I felt the lack of freedom.  It was the exact opposite which would make sense.

"I don't see one link on this thread providing one shred of evidence for the disgusting jew-hate BS you Zionist liars keep accusing me of." - Yamato
"%&* YOU and your empty suited insults about "racism" you Islamophobic Zionist freak." - Yamato

#86    RavenHawk

RavenHawk

    Poltergeist

  • Member
  • 2,978 posts
  • Joined:09 Aug 2011
  • Gender:Not Selected

Posted 15 November 2012 - 08:51 PM

View Postquestionmark, on 15 November 2012 - 05:01 PM, said:

Then you did it quite awkwardly, because neither Nazi Germany had a state controlled economy nor the US at the time.
No, I wasnít awkward.  You read what I said with a preconceived notion.  Iíve been noticing that about you and a few others.  Youíre just not use to the way I write.  The economy was effectively controlled by the state.  The Nazi government just wasnít in power long enough to have *complete* control but it was on path and during the war, it was hard to discern the difference.  They were transforming from the Weimar Republic and business could not be turned that quickly, but what you could do was make it a requirement that business owners become part of the Nazi Party and then the Party would control the ownership.  That is what is happening with Obamacare and Obamaís fixation on raising taxes on the top 2% for only a mere $75 billion a year.  And I wasnít saying that the US had the same control.  Their control was for guidance and leadership in time of war.  After the war, business went back to doing the business, business wanted.  Could you have said the same thing if Nazi Germany had won?  By then, the population of Germany would not have known anything else but Nazism and state control of business.  This is why people are signing petition to secede now.  Because theyíve learned the lessons of the past.

"I don't see one link on this thread providing one shred of evidence for the disgusting jew-hate BS you Zionist liars keep accusing me of." - Yamato
"%&* YOU and your empty suited insults about "racism" you Islamophobic Zionist freak." - Yamato

#87    RavenHawk

RavenHawk

    Poltergeist

  • Member
  • 2,978 posts
  • Joined:09 Aug 2011
  • Gender:Not Selected

Posted 15 November 2012 - 08:52 PM

View Post747400, on 15 November 2012 - 05:39 PM, said:

This may be wandering somewhat off topic by now, but industry in Germany wasn't state owned;
I already answered that.  The ownership of business had to be Party members and the Party controlled the members.

Quote

in fact, some of it (e.g. Ford and Opel) was American owned. American industry was more state controlled, effectively, really.
That is certainly one of the weird exceptions, but by the same token, Opel was never really a major player in the German war industry because of the US connections.  There was an issue of trust.  Opel was used to build parts for tanks and planes but thatís what you do for your own country.  It just wasnít a key industrial center.  If Germany had won, ownership of Opel would have been confiscated by the state.

Quote

But this is steadily becoming less and less to do with 15 states filing petitions, i suppose.
Yes, it is.  Some people just canít read between the lines and have to challenge everything.  It just isnít conducive to discussing why people in these states would want to secede because one has to write a dissertation to cover all the lesser points which may or may not have anything to do with the subject.

"I don't see one link on this thread providing one shred of evidence for the disgusting jew-hate BS you Zionist liars keep accusing me of." - Yamato
"%&* YOU and your empty suited insults about "racism" you Islamophobic Zionist freak." - Yamato

#88    Corp

Corp

    Telekinetic

  • Member
  • 6,951 posts
  • Joined:19 Jun 2008
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ottawa

Posted 15 November 2012 - 08:56 PM

How many people die because they can't afford treatment? Both systems have their flaws, but to claim that only America knows what freedom is...no. Most Europeans are just as free as Americans. And frankly it's foolish and insulting to claim otherwise.

War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things: the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth a war, is much worse...A man who has nothing which he is willing to fight for, nothing which he cares more about than he does about his personal safety, is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.

#89    questionmark

questionmark

    Cinicus Magnus

  • Member
  • 35,303 posts
  • Joined:26 Jun 2007
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Greece and Des Moines, IA

  • In a flat world there is an explanation to everything.

Posted 15 November 2012 - 08:57 PM

View PostRavenHawk, on 15 November 2012 - 08:52 PM, said:

I already answered that.  The ownership of business had to be Party members and the Party controlled the members.


BS, the only condition was not being Jewish, and foreign ownership (i.e. Ford, GM, GE, IBM, ITT and what have you) was not curtailed (in fact Henry Ford got an award for his aid to the Reich from Hitler), in fact remained untouched all through the war.

Buy yourself a history book.

A skeptic is a well informed believer and a pessimist a well informed optimist
The most dangerous views of the world are from those who have never seen it. ~ Alexander v. Humboldt
If you want to bulls**t me please do it so that it takes me more than a minute to find out

about me

#90    Valdemar the Great

Valdemar the Great

    Commander in the Secret Space Fleet

  • Member
  • 24,488 posts
  • Joined:09 May 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:The Sea of Okhotsk

  • Vampires are people too.

Posted 15 November 2012 - 09:07 PM

View PostRavenHawk, on 15 November 2012 - 08:52 PM, said:

I already answered that.  The ownership of business had to be Party members and the Party controlled the members.


That is certainly one of the weird exceptions, but by the same token, Opel was never really a major player in the German war industry because of the US connections.  There was an issue of trust.  Opel was used to build parts for tanks and planes but that's what you do for your own country.  It just wasn't a key industrial center.  If Germany had won, ownership of Opel would have been confiscated by the state.

Well, Opel was a major producer of trucks for the German army, to the tune of some 82356 3-ton Opel Blitz 3.6-36 and 3.6-36S trucks, according to the ever-reliable Achtungpanzer.com, but I think we're heading well into Godwin territory now if we're somehow drawing comparisons with O'bamacare and O'bama raising taxes, I think.

Edited by 747400, 15 November 2012 - 09:16 PM.

Life is a hideous business, and from the background behind what we know of it peer daemoniacal hints of truth which make it sometimes a thousandfold more hideous.

H. P. Lovecraft.


Posted Image





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users