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Ron Paul to Congress: Stop Worshipping Israel


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#106    Yamato

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 05:36 AM

Me, me, me, me.  It's always a personal attack about me isn't it?

Not every Palestinian thinks the way I do and not every Israeli thinks the way you do.  What you're assigning to me in my chair is also applicable to you.  So this talk about me every time you think isn't rising up to the standard that other people have met in actually discussing the subject of this thread.

If rights aren't forcibly taken away from people they are free to exercise those rights at will, if they wish.  That is a philosophy that I take seriously, handed down to me by my country's founding fathers. Whether you agree or not, is meaningless.

"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#107    MichaelW

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 10:52 PM

View PostYamato, on 16 December 2012 - 05:36 AM, said:

Me, me, me, me.  It's always a personal attack about me isn't it?

*snip*

Quote

Not every Palestinian thinks the way I do and not every Israeli thinks the way you do.

No Palestinians think the way you do Yam. Most of them probably haven't heard of Ron Paul anyway. And what makes you think I represent what Israelis think? In saying that, you'd be surprised at the similarities.

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What you're assigning to me in my chair is also applicable to you

This is going to simply degenerate into another "yo mama" thread so I can't really see how what I'm telling you what you are applies to me but whatever. It's not like anyone can understand you anyway, Yam.

Quote

If rights aren't forcibly taken away from people they are free to exercise those rights at will, if they wish.  That is a philosophy that I take seriously, handed down to me by my country's founding fathers. Whether you agree or not, is meaningless.

It's not whether or not I agree with it, it's whether or not you think the Palestinians have rights and the role of the Israeli government in granting them those rights.

Edited by Saru, 18 December 2012 - 09:26 PM.
Removed personal attack

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#108    Yamato

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 03:21 PM

Someone who name drops Mitt Romney as the guy he thinks is more consistent than Ron Paul already dug his own credibility's grave for me.   What else is there for me to accomplish when total annihilation was already achieved?

We are done here, michaelw.   The moderators would appreciate civility, respect and friendliness from posters on this forum especially and I am mature enough to understand that being friendly and debating a topic aren't mutually exclusive.  

If anyone else wants to participate on this thread I'll be happy to see your contributions.  Otherwise I will consider my points complete, widely agreed with, and this thread closed.

"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#109    MichaelW

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 11:43 PM

*snip*

Edited by Saru, 18 December 2012 - 09:26 PM.
More personal insults

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#110    Yamato

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 11:55 PM

In the words of former Treasury Secretary William Simon, Dr. Paul is the "one exception to the Gang of 535" on Capitol Hill.   He's the most consistent politician we've had in 100 years.

Now if the Congress could only stop worshipping Israel, the US would open up incredible new opportunities for trade and friendship in the world instead of perpetual war and perpetual threat of terrorist attacks.

"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#111    and then

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 12:21 AM

View PostYamato, on 17 December 2012 - 11:55 PM, said:

In the words of former Treasury Secretary William Simon, Dr. Paul is the "one exception to the Gang of 535" on Capitol Hill.   He's the most consistent politician we've had in 100 years.

Now if the Congress could only stop worshipping Israel, the US would open up incredible new opportunities for trade and friendship in the world instead of perpetual war and perpetual threat of terrorist attacks.
Do you really believe this, Yam?   Do you think that walking away from the only country in the region not actively working against our interests as a matter of policy is the way to  create better relations with the rest of the world?  And if that is true then why should we even WANT relations with such countries?  The Muslims have a saying:  After Saturday comes Sunday....  And they aren't teaching their children the days of the week.  It means first the Jews, then the Christians.  Refusing to acknowledge this may make you feel warm and fuzzy but it will have repercussions if it's ever accepted policy in this country.

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...

#112    MichaelW

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 04:24 AM

View PostYamato, on 17 December 2012 - 11:55 PM, said:

Now if the Congress could only stop worshipping Israel, the US would open up incredible new opportunities for trade and friendship in the world instead of perpetual war and perpetual threat of terrorist attacks.

With who? Congress claimed "worship" of Israel hasn't held back the US from working with over a dozen Asia-Pacific countries towards a multi-billion dollar free trade agreement. And anyway, the vast majority of the states in the Middle East currently have good relations with the US.

So, who do you have in mind for "incredible new opportunities for trade and friendship"? Syria? Iran?

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#113    Yamato

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 12:31 PM

View Postand then, on 18 December 2012 - 12:21 AM, said:

Do you really believe this, Yam?   Do you think that walking away from the only country in the region not actively working against our interests as a matter of policy is the way to  create better relations with the rest of the world?  And if that is true then why should we even WANT relations with such countries?  The Muslims have a saying:  After Saturday comes Sunday....  And they aren't teaching their children the days of the week.  It means first the Jews, then the Christians.  Refusing to acknowledge this may make you feel warm and fuzzy but it will have repercussions if it's ever accepted policy in this country.
Blah blah blah "the Arabs!", and blah blah blah "the Jooz!", and blah blah blah "the Moooozlims!".  

"Our interests"?   Our interests are peace, freedom and prosperity or like Max Igan said, perhaps I'm just old fashioned? Trade with all, alliance with none should be our motto.   If someone doesn't want to trade with the US, then we can accommodate, and even the most state-sponsored or GDP-entitled individual in this country won't lose any food on their fork.

The world is dying to be friends with the US, sometimes literally.

Our bureaucrats want enemies.  It keeps their racket going.

Edited by Yamato, 18 December 2012 - 12:33 PM.

"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#114    acidhead

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 03:25 AM

View Postand then, on 18 December 2012 - 12:21 AM, said:

Do you really believe this, Yam?   Do you think that walking away from the only country in the region not actively working against our interests as a matter of policy is the way to  create better relations with the rest of the world?  And if that is true then why should we even WANT relations with such countries?  The Muslims have a saying:  After Saturday comes Sunday....  And they aren't teaching their children the days of the week.  It means first the Jews, then the Christians.  Refusing to acknowledge this may make you feel warm and fuzzy but it will have repercussions if it's ever accepted policy in this country.

The Muslims have a saying....?  Which muslims?  The arab muslims?  The African muslims? The asian muslims?  Western muslims?

They aren't teaching their children the days of the week?  

Talk like that is insulting arrogant and makes absolutely no logical sense.... unless of course the individual who believes such nonsense is a religious extremist.

"there is no wrong or right - just popular opinion"

#115    Yamato

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 03:35 AM

Even if a few countries on a very short list were all of one mind, they are that way because of the actions of our bureaucrats, not our people.  Nothing I've done in my life has affected an Iranian's either positively or negatively although trade would be nice and would affect us both to the positive.  

Bureaucrats have one thing in common; they don't want friendship with people without their governments .  It doesn't serve their interests.   Manufacturing threats keeps the bureaucrats in business.   Iranians are beautiful people as we already highlighted in the discussion 'Humanizing Iran'.  It's a matter of getting through their bureaucratic red tape just to be able to travel there and see the place, but once there, we've already documented they have no animosity towards the American people.  I don't give any credence to bureaucrats who aren't smart enough to get along and choose to squabble instead about whose will should be imposed on the other.   I don't let myself become enslaved to these kinds of characters or their interests, and certainly not adopt their interests as my own and call them "US interests".  It's up to the people of America to decide what our real interests are.  I'm interested in a Persian rug for the dining room floor.    Market demand should be as low or high as it wants to be.   If Connecticut can't find anything better to do with itself than ban Iranian goods, that's fine for Connecticut but don't tread on me.

I have no interest in pretending along with my illustrious bureaucrats that any country is all of one mind and deserving to be treated like we can't tell the difference between a people and their regime.   It's easy to fall into that habit, whether talking about Israel, Iran, North Korea or any other country but the universal truth in all cases is that the people are eminently differentiable from their governments.   If history was rife with people dragging their unwilling governments kicking and screaming to war instead of the reverse, I might actually think like my bureaucrats want me to.    The best way to conquer North Koreans is by trading with them as heavily as the global marketplace will allow.   We're just ensuring their starvation continues, people living under a backwards regime held up by all that propaganda and nationalistic pride and our policies and rhetoric empower that regime by giving it a reason for existing.  But when people get a taste of freedom and the beauty of being able to choose for themselves and live free, they're not going to let go of that.   That's the way to encourage permanent political reform and it's a process that only people can accomplish, not governments.  

People don't change just because we cross the magic line on the map drawn by government.  People everywhere just want to be free, they want peace, prosperity, and love in their lives.  Appealing to humanity is far more useful to my interests than supporting political tomfoolery vilifying and demonizing entire groups of people within bureaucratic lines just to keep their leaders' racket going.

"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#116    and then

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 03:48 AM

View Postacidhead, on 19 December 2012 - 03:25 AM, said:

The Muslims have a saying....?  Which muslims?  The arab muslims?  The African muslims? The asian muslims?  Western muslims?

They aren't teaching their children the days of the week?  

Talk like that is insulting arrogant and makes absolutely no logical sense.... unless of course the individual who believes such nonsense is a religious extremist.
Would you prefer that I called them adherents of Islam?  And the fact that you refuse to accept the truth of a statement that I make doesn't invalidate it.  I have seen this expression in Islamic leader's speeches and heard it from podiums on news.  Do you think I just fabricated it from thin air?  I'm not going to get into a heated discussion here about the goals of Islam.  Been there, done that, had to take a break because of it.  But Acidhead  if you cannot admit the basic conflict between Islam and the REST OF THE WORLD... then you are being willfully political about the issue and there is no point trying to discuss it with you further.  Believe as you like and rest easy.  But I'd appreciate it if you didn't insult me over my opinions.

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...

#117    Yamato

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 04:47 AM

View Postand then, on 19 December 2012 - 03:48 AM, said:

Would you prefer that I called them adherents of Islam?  And the fact that you refuse to accept the truth of a statement that I make doesn't invalidate it.  I have seen this expression in Islamic leader's speeches and heard it from podiums on news.  Do you think I just fabricated it from thin air?  I'm not going to get into a heated discussion here about the goals of Islam.  Been there, done that, had to take a break because of it.  But Acidhead  if you cannot admit the basic conflict between Islam and the REST OF THE WORLD... then you are being willfully political about the issue and there is no point trying to discuss it with you further.  Believe as you like and rest easy.  But I'd appreciate it if you didn't insult me over my opinions.
And every time the rebels score on Assad, it's "Allahu Akbar".   Is Assad the rest of the world?   These lines aren't as black and white or as simple one-track minded as you think they are.   I think we believe that there isn't this grand religious conspiracy or clash of civilizations that the war racketeers keep assuring us there is.

"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#118    MichaelW

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 07:40 AM

View PostYamato, on 19 December 2012 - 03:35 AM, said:

It's easy to fall into that habit, whether talking about Israel, Iran, North Korea or any other country but the universal truth in all cases is that the people are eminently differentiable from their governments.

You mentioned North Koreans and not associated with their government in the same sentence? That just shows how blissfully unaware you are of the outside world. North Koreans believe what their government tells them to. They are spoon fed propaganda from birth. They believe the US is evil, just like their government. And no one disagrees with their government like in places in Israel or Iran, because to do so would mean a lifetime sentence in a labour camp for you and your immediate family.

It's naive to think there is one universal truth which can be applied anywhere and everywhere.

Quote

The best way to conquer North Koreans is by trading with them as heavily as the global marketplace will allow.

So many questions and so little answers. I doubt in its current state, the North Koreans are anything but unfriendly towards America and Americans in general. It would be ignorant to assume that the North Koreans would want American goods when they've been told all their lives that all the Americans want is to rape their women and eat their babies or some other incredibly fictitious belief.

And why does North Korea need "conquering"? North Korea needs help, I'll grant you that, but not conquering. And anyway, with China and Russia right next door, what makes you think the North Koreans would even want to trade with the US?

Quote

But when people get a taste of freedom and the beauty of being able to choose for themselves and live free, they're not going to let go of that.

And you think trade alone is going to solve this? The US trades a lot with countries such as China and Saudi Arabia and I wouldn't dream of considering them "free" nations.

Quote

That's the way to encourage permanent political reform and it's a process that only people can accomplish, not governments.

This is so wrong it isn't even funny. Trade and by extension, capitalism itself isn't going to free people. Anyone that is currently "employed" in a sweatshop in Indonesia or a electronics factory in the Philippines isn't free at all.

Your ideas of how freedom can be achieved are incredibly simplistic Yam. Trade alone isn't the answer.
  

Quote

Appealing to humanity is far more useful to my interests than supporting political tomfoolery vilifying and demonizing entire groups of people within bureaucratic lines just to keep their leaders' racket going.

That's a bit hypocritical isn't it Yam, given the fact that what you support only replaces the political racket with its corporate equal.

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#119    Yamato

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 10:57 AM

Corporations pay for their misdeeds every day in the marketplace unless the government shows up with another rescue plan.

Government gets away with mass murder and answers to nobody.  

Trade is just another way of exercising freedom.   What good is freedom if you don't use it?  There are a million ways to do that, but each and every way is symptomatic of freedom.   If you're not even allowed to trade freely, that's all the evidence I need to determine someone is anything but free.  How vast a capacity to take freedom this much for granted can someone get?

"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#120    Yamato

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 11:01 AM

It will take 50-100 years to repair the oppression in the Middle East due to the Israel-Palestine conflict.   North Korea will join the world marketplace in far less time than that.  The Koreas will unite, North Korea's economy will explode.   Myanmar's is getting ready to explode now.   Trade is inseparable with freedom.   If you can't even choose what to buy with your own money, you don't live a life of freedom, you're a prisoner of the Man.

"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela




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