26 replies to this topic

[Seeker79]

I often find a lot of knowledge by studying the works of  naturalists like Jhon Muir. Often side observations give clues to the lives and practices of precolumbian NA. Mostly I'm looking for how they survived, but many times little tid bits of culture and ethics come through.

The story of ishi has a lot of information straight from the horses mouth. I  learned a very important and little known skill from Ishi.

[Beany]

I recently attended a lecture by a Sioux medicine man, and was astounded by some of the things he said. He spoke of energy exchanges being used in healing ceremonies, he spoke of the chemical properties of the herbs & plants used, he talked about a layer in space just outside earth's atmosphere as containing energy that's used in healing & ceremony. I suspect that there is a hierarchal nature to Native American shaman, healers & holy men, and certain pieces of information that are either held privately or only passed down through a specific lineage and that are not available to the general public, both native & non-native. Certainly the yuwipi ceremony is only done by healers of one specific lineage, and that may be true of other ceremonies. Native American cosmology can be quite complex, i.e. the Cherokee. Maybe it's as complicated as non-native religions, with a wide variety of beliefs & practices. And of course, most of the books are written by authors who don't come from that culture, who bring with them their own bias & cultural experiences, which are bound to show up one way or another in their writing. If you're on the outside looking in, how much do you really understand?

Edited by Beany, 06 July 2012 - 02:04 PM.

[Michelle]

It's odd how so many cultures around the world have faith healers and other things like snake handlers. Of course, if it's Native American it is to be revered, but when it involves Evangelical Christians they are considered nuts and frauds.

[Seeker79]

Michelle, on 06 July 2012 - 02:22 PM, said:

It's odd how so many cultures around the world have faith healers and other things like snake handlers. Of course, if it's Native American it is to be revered, but when it involves Evangelical Christians they are considered nuts and frauds.

There are fraudulent shaman. But there are also real ones.

[rashore]

Lol, I think anyone that willingly handles dangerous snakes is a little nutty- that goes for religious folk and zookeepers.

Anywho, I have found Buffalo Bird Woman's words an interesting insight into ethics and fairly spiritually inspirational too. http://digital.libra...garden.html#III
Yes, it's all about how a people did their gardening. But in it you can see how they worked with the earth instead of trying to rule it, how they worked with each other and resolved conflict.

I tend not to pay a ton of attention to lists of moral or ethical codes when it comes to Native Americans. There were a lot of different groups and there were a lot of different ways of looking at ethics... I just don't think it can really be distilled down into a generic list that sums it all up well.

[Beany]

rashore, on 06 July 2012 - 04:20 PM, said:

Lol, I think anyone that willingly handles dangerous snakes is a little nutty- that goes for religious folk and zookeepers.

Anywho, I have found Buffalo Bird Woman's words an interesting insight into ethics and fairly spiritually inspirational too. http://digital.libra...garden.html#III
Yes, it's all about how a people did their gardening. But in it you can see how they worked with the earth instead of trying to rule it, how they worked with each other and resolved conflict.

I tend not to pay a ton of attention to lists of moral or ethical codes when it comes to Native Americans. There were a lot of different groups and there were a lot of different ways of looking at ethics... I just don't think it can really be distilled down into a generic list that sums it all up well.

You're right, to consider such a wide diversity of beliefs, customs, and practices and then make generalizations seems bound to be full of errors and misunderstandings.

[Paracelse]

ZaraKitty, on 06 July 2012 - 05:31 AM, said:

I'm Australian, but my Dad used to have very long black hair and would carry a bow around to kill feral animals for some extra cash on farms, everyone used to call him Apatche and when I was born I was called little Apatche:3 even though I was blonde with big green eyes

So you're a native American via transmigration of soul???

Seeker79, on 06 July 2012 - 06:05 AM, said:

They still were more civilized than the invaders.

You mean there was a difference of behavior between the French the Brits and the Native during the French Indian war?

Beany, on 06 July 2012 - 02:03 PM, said:

I recently attended a lecture by a Sioux medicine man, and was astounded by some of the things he said. He spoke of energy exchanges being used in healing ceremonies, he spoke of the chemical properties of the herbs & plants used, he talked about a layer in space just outside earth's atmosphere as containing energy that's used in healing & ceremony. I suspect that there is a hierarchal nature to Native American shaman, healers & holy men, and certain pieces of information that are either held privately or only passed down through a specific lineage and that are not available to the general public, both native & non-native. Certainly the yuwipi ceremony is only done by healers of one specific lineage, and that may be true of other ceremonies. Native American cosmology can be quite complex, i.e. the Cherokee. Maybe it's as complicated as non-native religions, with a wide variety of beliefs & practices. And of course, most of the books are written by authors who don't come from that culture, who bring with them their own bias & cultural experiences, which are bound to show up one way or another in their writing. If you're on the outside looking in, how much do you really understand?

Are we talking about the same Sioux Nation that drove entire Buffalo hordes down cliffs as a hunting method?  I'm talking about times before the "conquista" (and trust me I never celebrated columbus day)(for me it would be like celebrating a hitler day).  But Native may have a beautiful cosmology, but so do many other cultures that doesn't make the ordinary people of that culture better than the rest of the planet.  You could read Frazer's "Golden Bough" and compare it.  Just a thought.

[Seeker79]

Paracelse, on 07 July 2012 - 05:36 AM, said:

So you're a native American via transmigration of soul???

You mean there was a difference of behavior between the French the Brits and the Native during the French Indian war?



Are we talking about the same Sioux Nation that drove entire Buffalo hordes down cliffs as a hunting method?  I'm talking about times before the "conquista" (and trust me I never celebrated columbus day)(for me it would be like celebrating a hitler day).  But Native may have a beautiful cosmology, but so do many other cultures that doesn't make the ordinary people of that culture better than the rest of the planet.  You could read Frazer's "Golden Bough" and compare it.  Just a thought.

You go live in the plaines with the potential for bitter winters, very little  trees for bows, or saplings for arrows, or living off of prairie dogs from traps. There is a cliff.... There are 150 mouths to feed including children. You do what you got to do. ( I gurantee the shaman begged and pleaded for permission and forgiveness)

As to the other comment. The natives were not the invaders. If you come to my home and threaten my family, you better be preparied for the most savage defender you have ever witnessed.

[Michelle]

Seeker79, on 07 July 2012 - 06:24 AM, said:

As to the other comment. The natives were not the invaders. If you come to my home and threaten my family, you better be preparied for the most savage defender you have ever witnessed.

The same as most any other person on the face of the planet, but he said, before the "conquista"

[Paracelse]

Seeker79, on 07 July 2012 - 06:24 AM, said:

You go live in the plaines with the potential for bitter winters, very little  trees for bows, or saplings for arrows, or living off of prairie dogs from traps. There is a cliff.... There are 150 mouths to feed including children. You do what you got to do. ( I gurantee the shaman begged and pleaded for permission and forgiveness)

As to the other comment. The natives were not the invaders. If you come to my home and threaten my family, you better be preparied for the most savage defender you have ever witnessed.

I lived in Denver most of my life and I would often go on Navajo res in CO or NM to spend time away from the "civilization".  I can tell you there are still talks about the southern Nation invading and the Navajo (and Hopi) fears of those tribes that came from what is now known as Mexico.  The Navajo and the Hopi were really afraid of the Aztecs.  When did the Aztecs ceased to attack?  When they had something to worry about themselves.  Don't idolize a culture because it's fun.  Admit humans of any races and culture are flawed, even Native Americans.  And don't get me wrong, they are the culture I admire the most (I almost went to teach on the Navajo Res but the kid didn't want to move out of Denver) but I see the good and the bad.  Changing what was once bad is called growing and some humans actually do grow.  Will you join the club?

Edited by Paracelse, 07 July 2012 - 08:51 AM.

[Seeker79]

Paracelse, on 07 July 2012 - 08:51 AM, said:

I lived in Denver most of my life and I would often go on Navajo res in CO or NM to spend time away from the "civilization".  I can tell you there are still talks about the southern Nation invading and the Navajo (and Hopi) fears of those tribes that came from what is now known as Mexico.  The Navajo and the Hopi were really afraid of the Aztecs.  When did the Aztecs ceased to attack?  When they had something to worry about themselves.  Don't idolize a culture because it's fun.  Admit humans of any races and culture are flawed, even Native Americans.  And don't get me wrong, they are the culture I admire the most (I almost went to teach on the Navajo Res but the kid didn't want to move out of Denver) but I see the good and the bad.  Changing what was once bad is called growing and some humans actually do grow.  Will you join the club?

Your funny, you should read my first posts on this thread. I was only addressing the buffalo jump.

Edited by Seeker79, 07 July 2012 - 10:27 AM.

[Paracelse]

Seeker79, on 07 July 2012 - 10:26 AM, said:

Your funny, you should read my first posts on this thread. I was only addressing the buffalo jump.

Woops we were just trying to say the same thing