Jump to content




Welcome to Unexplained Mysteries! Please sign in or create an account to start posting and to access a host of extra features.


- - - - -

where did the "sumerians" come from?


  • Please log in to reply
243 replies to this topic

#196    cormac mac airt

cormac mac airt

    Telekinetic

  • Member
  • 7,529 posts
  • Joined:18 Jun 2008
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tennessee, USA

Posted 30 July 2013 - 03:06 PM

View Postdocyabut2, on 30 July 2013 - 09:40 AM, said:

Read some where that when the bottle neck happen from the Toba eruption 70,000 years and from a massvie tsunami on the west coast of Africa, throwing the asian man and the cro magnon man together, the asian man destroy the co magnon man and took their women.Perhaps the Sumerians are of this mixture. The co magon`s artifact of a head dress of a women looks sumerian.


http://www.bing.com/...pouy&Form=R5FD8



http://www.bing.com/...lectedIndex=196

There was no bottleneck.

Quote

The idea that humans nearly became extinct 75,000 ago because of a super-volcano eruption is not supported by new data from Africa, scientists say.

http://www.bbc.co.uk...onment-22355515

And since Cro-Magnon is for the most part a defunct name for early Homo sapiens sapiens (Us) in Europe then no, Asian groups did not replace us there.

cormac

Edited by cormac mac airt, 30 July 2013 - 03:07 PM.

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#197    cormac mac airt

cormac mac airt

    Telekinetic

  • Member
  • 7,529 posts
  • Joined:18 Jun 2008
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tennessee, USA

Posted 30 July 2013 - 03:22 PM

Quote

That seems a rather bold statement. From memory the first named writer of our world was a Sumerian woman, Enheduanna I believe.

It should be pointed out that Enheduanna was not Sumerian she was Akkadian, being the daughter of Sargon of Akkad.

Quote

We are told the Hebrews, or some of them, came out of Egypt and then developed their own religion apparently based on the God of Abraham who we are told came from ...Sumer, Ur of the Chaldees.

The former of which is not in evidence anywhere in Egypt and the latter of which (Yahweh) is not in evidence as ever having existed in Sumer at any point prior to the alleged existance of Abraham. The earliest reference of this deity firmly places Yahweh as being of Canaanite origin.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#198    questionmark

questionmark

    Cinicus Magnus

  • Member
  • 35,283 posts
  • Joined:26 Jun 2007
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Greece and Des Moines, IA

  • In a flat world there is an explanation to everything.

Posted 30 July 2013 - 03:26 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 30 July 2013 - 03:22 PM, said:

It should be pointed out that Enheduanna was not Sumerian she was Akkadian, being the daughter of Sargon of Akkad.



The former of which is not in evidence anywhere in Egypt and the latter of which (Yahweh) is not in evidence as ever having existed in Sumer at any point prior to the alleged existance of Abraham. The earliest reference of this deity firmly places Yahweh as being of Canaanite origin.

cormac

Correct, the thunder god of nomadic herder tribes.

A skeptic is a well informed believer and a pessimist a well informed optimist
The most dangerous views of the world are from those who have never seen it. ~ Alexander v. Humboldt
If you want to bulls**t me please do it so that it takes me more than a minute to find out

about me

#199    kmt_sesh

kmt_sesh

    Telekinetic

  • 7,529 posts
  • Joined:08 Jul 2007
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Chicago, Illinois

Posted 31 July 2013 - 02:40 AM

View Postlaver, on 30 July 2013 - 11:02 AM, said:

'The fact that these people worshipped goddesses does not change the basic construct of their societies and families'

That seems a rather bold statement. From memory the first named writer of our world was a Sumerian woman, Enheduanna I believe. She was a great follower of the Goddess Inanna and we do not seem to yet know the full impact of Goddess worship on these early societies.

Enheduanna was actually an Akkadian royal and a priestess in the city of Ur, but I understand your point. She was specifically a priestess of the Akkadian moon god Sin (known back in Sumerian times as Nanna). You're correct about her status as probably the world's first named writer (female or male). But remember the caveat in my previous post: royals do not represent the status of every-day people. More than 99% of the women in Enheduanna's own time and place did not enjoy her privileges or status.

But I think I'd be safe in saying that Enheduanna was probably a hell of a lot more intelligent than a lot of the men who ruled the Akkadian empire.

Quote

'...they ( the Hebrews) wouldn't have even known what "Sumerians" were. The Sumerians went extinct millennia before the Hebrews emerged. The most direct religious influence on the Hebrews was their Canaanite kin. As best as can be determined, Yahweh was originally a minor Canaanite deity.'

There have been strong suggestions that early Ancient Egypt had influence from Sumer with its Goddess worship traditions and of course AE had important Goddesses leading to the stories about Osiris and Isis etc.

There were certainly Mesopotamian influences on Egypt of late prehistory and into the earliest stages of the Early Dynastic Period, but these are chiefly observable in artistic motifs and architectural forms. Most historians also agree that at least some (perhaps many) domesticates of which Egyptians took advantage in prehistory came from the Levant and Mesopotamia. Religion is another matter, however. It's possible that religious practices of the Levant and Mesopotamia influenced early Egypt, but there's nothing definitive pointing in that direction. There's a greater likelihood that such religious practices filtered into Egypt from Nubia to the south. Most deities for which there is evidence from the earliest dynasties in Egypt are inherently Egyptian and in other cases, theoretically Nubian (e.g., Bat, Bes, and some even posit Horus).

There is no firm evidence for cults of Osiris and Isis until late in Dynasty 5, toward the end of the Egyptian Old Kingdom, by which time Akkad ruled what's now Iraq and the Sumerians were already fading from history.

Quote

We are told the Hebrews, or some of them, came out of Egypt and then developed their own religion apparently based on the God of Abraham who we are told came from ...Sumer, Ur of the Chaldees.
So there was clearly a great interchange of ideas around the ancient world and in all these cultures the Goddess was obviously very important.

I absolutely agree about the interchange of ideas around the ancient Mediterranean world. There's no doubting it. The critical factor is, what exactly does the extant evidence support in the way of cross-cultural transference? Your example of Exodus or some version thereof, for instance, is not supported archaeologically or textually anywhere in the ancient Near East (by textually I specifically mean extrabiblical evidence, which would subsequently call into question accounts penned by later writers such as Josephus, who drew straight from the Old Testament).

Consider, for example, the biblical phrase "Ur of the Chaldees" or "Chaldeans." It's actually quite revealing. As a people the Chaldeans (Kasdim) cannot be dated to before the tenth century BCE (the Early Iron Age) and did not rise to prominence in Mesopotamia until several centuries later. The Chaldeans conquered and occupied Babylon through the seventh and into the sixth centuries BCE—hence the moniker of "Chaldean dynasty" in ancient Babylon. It was the Chaldean ruler of Babylon named Nebuchadnezzar II who conquered Jerusalem in 597 BCE, so the Jews of that time were painfully familiar with the Chaldeans and the large territory Babylonia ruled over. But the biblical Abraham would've lived long before these events, and the Chaldeans did not even exist that far back in time. It's a good example of how the scribes who penned the Old Testament were drawing on peoples and events of their own time to manufacture a narrative for something much farther back in time. As it is there is no extrabiblical evidence for the existence of the biblical Abraham, although someone like him may have existed; or, perhaps more likely, he was a literary invention or synthesis used to represent any number of actual founders of the Hebrew culture.

I'm droning on too long again, but even in the earliest stages of the religion it is certain that Yahweh was of the most importance. While there is a case to be made for his consort Asherah, she was never placed on equal footing with Yahweh.

There is really no such thing as the "sacred feminine" of Dan Brown fame. It's a great plot development for his novels but not something at which we can point in ancient history and identify definitively. What we have instead are pantheons of deities, both gods and goddesses, many of major importance and many of minor. Nevertheless, the primary deities of all ancient Near Eastern and Mediterranean societies of which I'm aware were always gods. I'm not saying this to be sexist because I am not sexist: I say it because my own twenty-plus years of research paints a very clear picture of this for me.

Posted Image
Words of wisdom from Richard Clopton:
For every credibility gap there is a gullibility fill.

Visit My Blog!

#200    Harte

Harte

    Supremely Educated Knower of Everything in Existence

  • Member
  • 8,966 posts
  • Joined:06 Aug 2006
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Memphis

  • Skeptic

Posted 31 July 2013 - 03:04 AM

View Postlaver, on 30 July 2013 - 11:02 AM, said:

We are told the Hebrews, or some of them, came out of Egypt and then developed their own religion apparently based on the God of Abraham who we are told came from ...Sumer, Ur of the Chaldees.
After Kmt_sesh's dissertation, I hesitate to add anything further.

However, realizing that posting assuages my ego (at least by some small amount,) I'll deign to say this.
Here's a damn fine PDF on the subject of the "problem" of "Ur of the Chaldeans."

The fact is, it's not certain that Abraham (if he existed at all) was even from Ur.

It's a scholary paper and sort of difficult, but not too bad. 12 pages, but that includes lots of footnotes.

Harte

P.S. Kmt, this is how you keep a post short.

H.

I've consulted all the sages I could find in yellow pages but there aren't many of them. - The Alan Parsons Project
Most people would die sooner than think; in fact, they do so. - Bertrand Russell
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong. - Thomas Jefferson
Giorgio's dying Ancient Aliens internet forum

#201    docyabut2

docyabut2

    Government Agent

  • Member
  • 3,393 posts
  • Joined:12 Aug 2011

Posted 31 July 2013 - 09:53 AM

The early women hair dresses has to say something of the Sumerian origin.


http://www.bing.com/...pouy&Form=R5FD8



http://www.bing.com/...lectedIndex=196


#202    laver

laver

    Psychic Spy

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,204 posts
  • Joined:02 Jan 2013

Posted 31 July 2013 - 03:56 PM

Reply to kmt_sesh post of 03.40

Once again a very interesting post

Enheduanna was Akkadian, my bad memory, but from what I recall the religious beliefs of the Akkadians came from the Sumerians, with a few name changes, so the creation myths of the Sumerians, as the earliest culture, may have been passed down, at least in part, to later cultures of the area.

'There is no firm evidence for cults of Osiris and Isis until late in Dynasty 5, toward the end of the Egyptian Old Kingdom, by which time Akkad ruled what's now Iraq and the Sumerians were already fading from history....'

But surely the creation myths of the AE also involved the active involvement of a feminine deity, a Goddess ?

The point which is relevant to this topic on UM, of where did the Sumerians come from, is  - where did the Sumerians think they came from ? What did they see as their origins ? They were a very advanced culture and from reading some Sumerian poetry in a Kramer book years ago they had some interesting and sensitive ideas. All this was done under a religious belief in which the Goddess was a very important element.
It makes one ask what impact this may have had on their developement as the first major civilisation ?

'...But the biblical Abraham would've lived long before these events, and the Chaldeans did not even exist that far back in time. It's a good example of how the scribes who penned the Old Testament were drawing on peoples and events of their own time to manufacture a narrative for something much farther back in time. As it is there is no extrabiblical evidence for the existence of the biblical Abraham, although someone like him may have existed; or, perhaps more likely, he was a literary invention or synthesis used to represent any number of actual founders of the Hebrew culture.....'

The point I was trying to make, probably badly, was - why did the scribes of the OT choose to make Abraham an exile from Ur in earlier Sumer ?
He went north we are told and then down to the Holy Land  to the 'sanctuary' of Shechem which was not a new site but an ancient Canaanite holy site to their deities. The other site in the Holy Land important to the story of Abraham is Mamre which is also an ancient Canaanite sacred site from long before the possible time Abraham. The Abrahamic stories seem to have been superimposed on sites that had religious importance to the original inhabitants of the land who worshipped Gods and Goddesses.
As you have already noted their was clearly a long attempt to eliminate a female partner for the God of the OT and also to write out Sumer and its culture from recorded history. This was successful until recent years but we now know much more about this amazing early civilisation and its creation stories involving the actions of Gods and Goddesses. The ways these are told indicates some trial and error but the Goddess finally created other Goddesses to cure the ills of Enki out of which Kramer suggests comes the biblical spin of woman from the rib of man.  

'There is really no such thing as the "sacred feminine" of Dan Brown fame......'

Is that not also rather a bold statement. Taking the subject of the Sumerians they would clearly not have agreed as the Goddess was thought by them to be important to their creation, religion and life. This, as I am sure you are aware, goes back long before their time to images of the Goddess from sometimes thousands of years earlier. As this topic is about the origins of the Sumerians, from memory, it is the Goddess Inanna who obtains, and possibly then looses, the 'ME' which seemed to be a source of knowledge and power in Sumerian belief. Maybe this reflects an element of struggle between their male and female deities ?

In this general area of the ancient world some myths seem to indicate that it is the Goddess who is 'Queen' of the land and then chooses which partner to be her 'King'. This element of feminine power, which may have been acceptable to the early Sumerians and others, is totally contrary to the later concept that women are possessions and daughters were to be sold or told who to marry for financial or political gain.
In early belief the choice of the feminine may well have been considered 'sacred' and linked to the Goddess.  

All this is interesting historical and prehistorical conjecture but the aftermath continues to have a huge impact on our world today.


#203    docyabut2

docyabut2

    Government Agent

  • Member
  • 3,393 posts
  • Joined:12 Aug 2011

Posted 01 August 2013 - 12:15 AM

The ansesters of the  Asian man from the peking man fought with the co magnon man and took the women. The Sumerians are of this mixture.So where did they come from ? Both cultures are there.Gee better then comming from aliens:)

Edited by docyabut2, 01 August 2013 - 12:37 AM.


#204    cormac mac airt

cormac mac airt

    Telekinetic

  • Member
  • 7,529 posts
  • Joined:18 Jun 2008
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tennessee, USA

Posted 01 August 2013 - 01:14 AM

View Postdocyabut2, on 01 August 2013 - 12:15 AM, said:

The ansesters of the  Asian man from the peking man fought with the co magnon man and took the women. The Sumerians are of this mixture.So where did they come from ? Both cultures are there.Gee better then comming from aliens:)

Making things up doesn't make them true. Peking Man (Homo erectus) didn't exist during the time of Cro-magnon Man (Homo sapiens sapiens - US). Which makes any claims of the Sumerians ancestry completely wrong in this regard.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#205    docyabut2

docyabut2

    Government Agent

  • Member
  • 3,393 posts
  • Joined:12 Aug 2011

Posted 01 August 2013 - 01:26 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 01 August 2013 - 01:14 AM, said:

Making things up doesn't make them true. Peking Man (Homo erectus) didn't exist during the time of Cro-magnon Man (Homo sapiens sapiens - US). Which makes any claims of the Sumerians ancestry completely wrong in this regard.

cormac

Well maybe I worded that wrong the desendants of the Peking Man :)


#206    kmt_sesh

kmt_sesh

    Telekinetic

  • 7,529 posts
  • Joined:08 Jul 2007
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Chicago, Illinois

Posted 01 August 2013 - 01:56 AM

View Postdocyabut2, on 01 August 2013 - 01:26 AM, said:

Well maybe I worded that wrong the desendants of the Peking Man :)

You've used Cro-magnon man in this way before, docy. Cormac has pointed it out, but I'll reiterate: Cro-magnon is the same as Homo sapien. "Cro-magnon" is simply a French term deriving from the discovery of ancient human remains in southwest France. Therefore, by nature, it's a very localized term that reached greater popularity than it probably should have. And I might add it's a rather outdated term.

Sumerians were just another ethnic group of Homo sapiens. The mysteries surrounding them should not lead us to whimsical exaggerations.

Posted Image
Words of wisdom from Richard Clopton:
For every credibility gap there is a gullibility fill.

Visit My Blog!

#207    docyabut2

docyabut2

    Government Agent

  • Member
  • 3,393 posts
  • Joined:12 Aug 2011

Posted 01 August 2013 - 02:06 AM

View Postkmt_sesh, on 01 August 2013 - 01:56 AM, said:

You've used Cro-magnon man in this way before, docy. Cormac has pointed it out, but I'll reiterate: Cro-magnon is the same as Homo sapien. "Cro-magnon" is simply a French term deriving from the discovery of ancient human remains in southwest France. Therefore, by nature, it's a very localized term that reached greater popularity than it probably should have. And I might add it's a rather outdated term.

Sumerians were just another ethnic group of Homo sapiens. The mysteries surrounding them should not lead us to whimsical exaggerations.

but kmt were`nt the cro magnon the frist white race that turned white from the lack of the ultra violent rays?

Edited by docyabut2, 01 August 2013 - 02:17 AM.


#208    kmt_sesh

kmt_sesh

    Telekinetic

  • 7,529 posts
  • Joined:08 Jul 2007
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Chicago, Illinois

Posted 01 August 2013 - 02:17 AM

View Postdocyabut2, on 01 August 2013 - 02:06 AM, said:

but kmt were`nt the cro magnon the frist white race that turn white from the lack of the violent rays?

Paleolithic humans in Europe, yes. I would honestly abandon the "Cro-magnon" designation, docy, as it really is something of a misnomer. Humans entered Europe around 45,000 BP but it wasn't until around 12,000 BP (and probably later than that) when white skin developed. We can't be sure this occurred in France, as far as I know, so using the term "Cro-magnon" in this context is even more off the mark.

Cormac is more knowledgeable in this field of study than I am, so perhaps he can elaborate.

Posted Image
Words of wisdom from Richard Clopton:
For every credibility gap there is a gullibility fill.

Visit My Blog!

#209    cormac mac airt

cormac mac airt

    Telekinetic

  • Member
  • 7,529 posts
  • Joined:18 Jun 2008
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tennessee, USA

Posted 01 August 2013 - 03:36 AM

View Postdocyabut2, on 01 August 2013 - 02:06 AM, said:

but kmt were`nt the cro magnon the frist white race that turned white from the lack of the ultra violent rays?

I'm not sure which is worse, your using an outdated and therefore meaningless term for HSS or using it in such a way as to relate it to race. Neither of which is correct. Cro-magnon is an outdated term for Homo sapiens sapiens from the Paleolithic whereas genetic evidence suggests that Europeans didn't start to acquire pale/white skin until the Holocene c.4000 BC - 10,000 BC. Which is after the last glacial period but during the period of time when the domestication of wheat, barley and other agricultural produce was expanding into Europe via Anatolia. Not that either has anything to do with the Sumerians, they don't.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#210    docyabut2

docyabut2

    Government Agent

  • Member
  • 3,393 posts
  • Joined:12 Aug 2011

Posted 01 August 2013 - 10:56 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 01 August 2013 - 03:36 AM, said:

I'm not sure which is worse, your using an outdated and therefore meaningless term for HSS or using it in such a way as to relate it to race. Neither of which is correct. Cro-magnon is an outdated term for Homo sapiens sapiens from the Paleolithic whereas genetic evidence suggests that Europeans didn't start to acquire pale/white skin until the Holocene c.4000 BC - 10,000 BC. Which is after the last glacial period but during the period of time when the domestication of wheat, barley and other agricultural produce was expanding into Europe via Anatolia. Not that either has anything to do with the Sumerians, they don't.

cormac

Homo Sapians left Africa 200,000 years ago and your saying the skin mellons only turned 4000 to 10,000 bc?





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users