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Troubling Doctrines For Christians


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#31    Admiral Rhubarb

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 03:14 PM

View PostRlyeh, on 02 March 2013 - 03:07 PM, said:

And many Christians will say the Creation account didn't literally occur. So I guess the question still remains.
I rather doubt that Christians who don't believe in the Creation account literally would also believe in "original Sin" as a concept either, somehow.

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#32    Beany

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 11:07 PM

I find the "doctrine" itself troubling.


#33    SpiritWriter

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 11:16 PM

The role women play is pretty non existent or it makes women look bad, the feminine aspect of the godhead has been completely stripped and the right gods people have to pillage other lands (rape and kill and steal) the massive attack on other belief systems

That is the docrine that bothers me for the most part, then there is the religious attitudes.. that is also disturbing

Edited by SpiritWriter, 02 March 2013 - 11:17 PM.

The letter kills but The Spirit gives life. 2 Corinthians 3:6

Non-ambiguity and non-contradiction are one sided and thus unsuited to express the incomprehensible. -Jung

#34    Detective Mystery 2014

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 03:26 AM

View PostLord Vetinari, on 02 March 2013 - 09:05 AM, said:

Because the idea of being "saved" or "destined for Destruction" directly contradicts everything that Jesus taught about every single person being able to be "saved" if they would just understand what he was saying. Also, his meaning of being "saved" meant to understand the truth about God and to ultimately become part of God, not a crude, heads or tails choice between being Saved or Destructed. That's how one gets around it, because it was not how Jesus saw it.

Do you have scriptural evidence of your interpretation of salvation? I interpret damnation and salvation as opposites describing one's state in the afterlife. I don't see how my interpretation contradicts anything that Christ taught. Of course, He preached the salvation of souls. After His time here, people could accept or reject Him. Their choice affected the states of their souls in the afterlife, according to Christianity. Surely, an omniscient God knew what choice they would make. The only alternative is that He didn't.

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#35    Detective Mystery 2014

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 03:34 AM

View Postredhen, on 02 March 2013 - 02:32 PM, said:

Troubling doctrines? I could make a list but the worst one for me is vicarious salvation, especially in the form of animal and human sacrifice. It's morally repugnant and illogical.

"By oneself alone is evil done,
By oneself alone is one defiled,
By oneself alone is evil avoided.
By oneself is one purified.
Purity and impurity depend on oneself,
None can purify another"


- Siddhārtha Gautama Buddha

The idea of sacrifices was troubling to me too. It probably was a reflection of cultural practices, that were seen as norms, in Abraham's place and time. The Hebrews likely made a comparatively huge jump in understanding when they eschewed human sacrifices that were seen as normal by some of the other cultures of that time. That said, the story of the young Isaac greatly bothered me when I was a kid.

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#36    Detective Mystery 2014

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 03:36 AM

View PostBeany, on 02 March 2013 - 11:07 PM, said:

I find the "doctrine" itself troubling.

Could you be more specific? I take it that you're referring to all Christianity.

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#37    Detective Mystery 2014

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 03:45 AM

View PostSpiritWriter, on 02 March 2013 - 11:16 PM, said:

The role women play is pretty non existent or it makes women look bad, the feminine aspect of the godhead has been completely stripped and the right gods people have to pillage other lands (rape and kill and steal) the massive attack on other belief systems

That is the docrine that bothers me for the most part, then there is the religious attitudes.. that is also disturbing

Women were treated relatively well during the very early stages of the Church. Their future treatment often mirrored the culture around them. As for murder and rape, CINOs (Christians In Name Only) have no monopoly on that. Those crimes are universal to humanity, and no "group" is immune despite fashionable fairy tales that try to scapegoat one group over other groups.

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#38    redhen

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 04:32 AM

View PostDetective Mystery 2013, on 03 March 2013 - 03:34 AM, said:

The idea of sacrifices was troubling to me too. It probably was a reflection of cultural practices, that were seen as norms, in Abraham's place and time.

Yes, as was Yahweh the Ugaritic Hill/Storm god.

Quote

The Hebrews likely made a comparatively huge jump in understanding when they eschewed human sacrifices that were seen as normal by some of the other cultures of that time. That said, the story of the young Isaac greatly bothered me when I was a kid.

But they still continued slaughtering lambs (as some kind of scapegoat) until the Romans destroyed the last temple. Christianity continues to do this ritually and thankfully metaphorically. Agnus dei qui tollis peccata mundi


#39    Detective Mystery 2014

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 04:34 AM

View Postredhen, on 03 March 2013 - 04:32 AM, said:

But they still continued slaughtering lambs (as some kind of scapegoat) until the Romans destroyed the last temple. Christianity continues to do this ritually and thankfully metaphorically. Agnus dei qui tollis peccata mundi

Look on the bright side. At least, no Christian churches are like Santeria.

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#40    SpiritWriter

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 04:39 AM

View PostDetective Mystery 2013, on 03 March 2013 - 03:45 AM, said:



Women were treated relatively well during the very early stages of the Church. Their future treatment often mirrored the culture around them. As for murder and rape, CINOs (Christians In Name Only) have no monopoly on that. Those crimes are universal to humanity, and no "group" is immune despite fashionable fairy tales that try to scapegoat one group over other groups.

The question is what I dont like about biblical doctrine. Many parts of the bible make this ok for gods people to do simply because of the god they serve... I did not imply this wasnt a universal trait. Womens treatment mirrored the culture around them... ok but there is still misogyny in doctrine (jusyifying this) and I dont like thay aspect of it...

The letter kills but The Spirit gives life. 2 Corinthians 3:6

Non-ambiguity and non-contradiction are one sided and thus unsuited to express the incomprehensible. -Jung

#41    redhen

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 05:48 AM

View PostDetective Mystery 2013, on 03 March 2013 - 04:34 AM, said:

Look on the bright side. At least, no Christian churches are like Santeria.

Not long ago they used to claim that some animals were demonic or an evil plague, that had to be anathematized and executed.

I'm sure I could find a syncretic flavour of Christianity somewhere in the Caribbean or Africa that does involve animal sacrifice. I know, hardly orthodox, but still ....


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Posted 03 March 2013 - 05:58 AM

View PostLord Vetinari, on 02 March 2013 - 03:12 PM, said:

Because his ideas were more subtle than the old black and white, "us" & "them" thinking that people had had for centuries. What he tried to do with his parables was to try to put his ideas in ways that his audience would be able to relate to. To simply boil down his teaching to simple black/white thinking that classifies people into "Saved" and "Others" does him rather a disservice, I feel, although people who claim to be "Christian" have been doing that for very many years, of course.
Hmm, He taught in ways that his audience could relate to?  I was under the impression he spoke in parables so that his audience wouldn't understand him!  Which seems to contradict your assertion that everything that Jesus taught about every single person being able to be "saved"

Quote

Matthew 13:

10 The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?”
11 He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven(H) has been given to you,(I) but not to them. 12 Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them.(J) 13 This is why I speak to them in parables:

“Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand.(K)
14 In them is fulfilled(L) the prophecy of Isaiah:
“‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
15 For this people’s heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.’


Edited by Paranoid Android, 03 March 2013 - 06:00 AM.

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#43    Admiral Rhubarb

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 07:49 AM

View PostDetective Mystery 2013, on 03 March 2013 - 03:26 AM, said:

Do you have scriptural evidence of your interpretation of salvation? I interpret damnation and salvation as opposites describing one's state in the afterlife. I don't see how my interpretation contradicts anything that Christ taught. Of course, He preached the salvation of souls. After His time here, people could accept or reject Him. Their choice affected the states of their souls in the afterlife, according to Christianity. Surely, an omniscient God knew what choice they would make. The only alternative is that He didn't.
I'm afraid I don't take every single thing that's said in every single part of the Bible, including the OT and the many opinions of Paul, literally. I prefer to look at what Jesus said about things. All the "salvation or damnation" was all invented by "Christian thinkers" like Paul & Augustine and all that lot, very often to completely twist and pervert the words of the one they claimed to follow, for their own purposes. That purpose mainly being to get power for themselves and control over the people. It was often little short of a crime. And all this argument about "an omniscisent God" knowing what choice people would make is really anthropomorphising, isn't it. It gives the impression of how as sitting up there, on his throne in the clouds, with huge filing cabinets full of dossiers on every single person who's ever lived, and a record of whether they've been naughty or nice.

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#44    Admiral Rhubarb

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 07:54 AM

View PostParanoid Android, on 03 March 2013 - 05:58 AM, said:

Hmm, He taught in ways that his audience could relate to? I was under the impression he spoke in parables so that his audience wouldn't understand him! Which seems to contradict your assertion that everything that Jesus taught about every single person being able to be "saved"
I'm afraid don't really understand your line of argument here. You're saying that Jesus spoke in parables because he wanted to be mysterious & enigmatic. So why are you so sure that his beliefs, ideas and theories are so in keeping with those of Paul? If they're open to individual interpretation, why are you so sure that Paul so right about it? The whole poitn about Jesus' teaching was that it was about compassion for all of humanity, and to teach them how to return to unity with God, which was what "Original Sin" was, people moving away from this unity with God. That completely goes against any notion of people being "destined" for one thing or another.

Edited by Lord Vetinari, 03 March 2013 - 08:08 AM.

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#45    Paranoid Android

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 08:35 AM

View PostLord Vetinari, on 03 March 2013 - 07:54 AM, said:

I'm afraid don't really understand your line of argument here. You're saying that Jesus spoke in parables because he wanted to be mysterious & enigmatic. So why are you so sure that his beliefs, ideas and theories are so in keeping with those of Paul? If they're open to individual interpretation, why are you so sure that Paul so right about it? The whole poitn about Jesus' teaching was that it was about compassion for all of humanity, and to teach them how to return to unity with God, which was what "Original Sin" was, people moving away from this unity with God. That completely goes against any notion of people being "destined" for one thing or another.
I'm saying that Jesus intentionally spoke in order that certain people wouldn't understand him. If he wanted everyone saved he wouldn't have used parables. Those who wanted to understand Jesus would have to enquire further, but he knew that many wouldn't.  Everything is up for individual interpretation, but not all interpretations are valid.  Needless to say that after reading the New Testament, the teachings of Paul and Jesus have never clashed for me, they complement each other. Not having any reason not to accept Paul, I choose to believe that his teachings are valid for spiritual growth and understanding God.

Edited by Paranoid Android, 03 March 2013 - 09:44 AM.

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