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Croatians attempt to supress minority rights


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#46    Sir Wearer of Hats

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 07:15 AM

http://en.wikipedia....i/Ante_Gotovina

Never read just the first line of wiki folks.

Edited by Wearer of Hats, 25 April 2013 - 07:16 AM.


#47    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 07:47 AM

To not repeat myself ....read this

http://www.unexplain...pic=237783&st=0


Oh boy, that was day that shook my country. Historic date.



JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#48    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 07:49 AM

View Postthe L, on 16 November 2012 - 06:25 PM, said:

Now allow me to explain to you dear UMers why he is General as Napoleon, Caesar, Gustavus Adolphus, Hannibal, Zhukov, Nader Shah , Patton...


It was longest military line after World War 2. It was 630 km of enemies line. To break such line depth of impact of army must have been 50 km.
So when operation Oluja started our special forces made 50 km impact behind enemy lines.
Before action Oluja we were secretly listen Milošević, main negative protagonist of all this mess. so we knew every next move ordered by this mad man.
With drones we takes photo of every inch of enemy lines. When operation started we knew where every theor tank was.
Our neighbours Bosnia and Herzegovinia, homeland of Odas allow Croatian special forces Tigers to made action Summer 95 or Ljeto 95 and in that action we capture peak "Šator" or Tent on english. That was strategic move first. And tactical.
Tactic is what is done on battlfield and strategy is what is done behind. Manouvers.
Our special forces of police were already on Velebit since 1993 and since 1994 HVor Croatian Army was on Dinara mountain.
Now all this time Croatia was under embargo so we must secretly and illegal to armed ourselves to defend from 3rd army in Europe. JNA-Yugoslavian Army with Serbian Chetniks.
Peter W. Galbraith propsed plan Z4 where he allow Serbs to have state inside of Croatia. Meaning that Croatia gave up on us territory.
Ofcourse we refused that and we demand AVNOJ borders. Then USA and Clinton gave us 10 days.
So stake was high. Either we get all in 10 days or loose all.

Operation Oluja should be 8 days before it happened but because of secret mobilization problems happened week later.
General Stipetić was on east in Đakovo securing east line. Croats also secured south line just in case Yugoslavia will attack either from Serbia or from Montenegro.

In 2 a.m. on August 4th 1995 action started.
All Serbian informative lines were blocked so their artilery was cut from thier infantry.

1000 special policemen on Velebit with 35 kg of equipment and ammunition and on 1600 meters above sea level came on high resistance. Bunkers.
Amnog special forces there was 12 complete teams of surgeons, anesthesiologists, nurses with big loads of blood for transfussion.
Because of heavy terrain all operation were done on scene.

General Norac with his Wolf brigade attacked from Lika and General Crnjac from Karlovac.
When you break enemy line you must have impact forces who would like spear break line. That line breakers in Croatian Army were Tigers.
Croatian Army have mission to melt with 5 Corpus of Army of Bosnia and Herzegovnia trough Kapela.

General Korade on 5.8. lead liberation of Croatian city Knin with his Pumas. Later 4th Brigade under Krstičević which are aka Spiders join Korade.
On first day of breaking lines we have difficulties in sector Petrinja. That was a result of changing plans in headquarters in Zagreb.
Now if you read carefully what I wrote you will remember that you must have something like spear forces which will break lines. In this area we loose sharpness and attack as parallel line. Parallel lines cant break other.
In 2nd. Brigade we have 18 deads with commander of battalion dead. 60 wounded. 8 elite special force soldiers were killed which is a lot for special forces. One special force soldiers counts as 11 normal. So it was like you loose 88 soldiers. Then General Stipetić overtakes command.

So four days after USA allow us to liberate our country , on August 08th 1995, Čedo Bulat sign capitulation on the car of Croatian police while General Stipetić smiled.

Many others are involved. Minister of defense Gojko Šušak,Admiral Domazet Lošo.
Croatia did information war before attacking Serbs.
192 000 people were involved in Operation Oluja.


We liberated 11 000 km2. We spent on daily basis 1200 tones of ammunition and 400 tones of fuel.
Now thats huge numbers.


Now where Gotovina in all this story. Well  caporal chef have keyrole in all strategic actions. In taking peak Šator in Bosnia. In action Maslenica. In liberation of Knin. He was commander in melted army of HV and HVO in action Maestral. All hard work in Dalmatia and Hezegovinia was done by Ante. He led Croatian army which came 23 km of BanjaLuka where Serbs have 50 000 soldiers.

Then when Ante Gotovina was in fron of Banja Luka USA gave sign to Croatian goverment that we must stop with all action like they were surprised how much did we in 4 days.
Ante Gotivna was in that light responsible for Dayton agreement. He created terms for it with his tactics and strategical manuvers.

From 4 to 7 August 1995 , 124 croatian soldier died. 20 officers and 18 non-commissioned officers.
What does information tells you that our officers were in front lines. And everyone who was under Ante Gotovina said that he was always near front lines.
On other hand 575 Serb soldiers died and 1850 soldiers were wounded.


Operation is now studied in US Army with Cannae, Alesia and similar.
Its par excellence of modern warfare. and Gotovina played keyrole in it.

Okay Helena now I will keep my mouth closed. :innocent:


JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#49    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 07:57 AM

Or as Israel generals said after this battlefield masterpiece.

"There is only three armies in the world capable for such maneuver. US army, Tzahal (Israel army) and Croatian army."

Im proud of Ante Gotovina. He is our George Washington in a sense. And he should be on our money too.

Edited by the L, 25 April 2013 - 08:00 AM.

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#50    Tutankhaten-pasheri

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 08:32 AM

Having sat on sidelines I make this one proper contribution. I take no sides here, I simply point out that the full picture is not presented on this thread. So, I fill a few gaps.

Firstly. Why the involvement on the Croat side of the American organisation MPRI - Military Professional Resources Incorporated, led by an ex US General.

Secondly. This site fills some gaps better than me. http://emperors-clot...ch/krajina.html

Thirdly. What happens here? why is Croat General Cosic having a cosy chat with US General Clark in Washington in late 1994
Posted Image

Fourthly. Simply some entertainment provided by the Kuban Cossacks (Descendents of the famous Zaporozhian Host. Was a film with the Ukranian Yul Brinner about them, Taras Bulba). Here they sing sentimental song about the the terrible plight of Serbs during WWI, nothing political, simply some entertainment in a harsh and unforgiving thread :)


And this for the hell of it. Also very good song and some good swords at the end :)


And look below at my signature. Cyrillics! Oh! the devil appears! Posted Image Posted Image

Edited by Atentutankh-pasheri, 25 April 2013 - 08:46 AM.


#51    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 08:51 AM

Im short on time Atentutankh-pasheri so I will come back once to respond to your post.
3rd dot-Simply because European powers didnt have courage to help Croats. And they have had responsibility to react when Serbia attack us. Then Croats look for new allies.
And there was Clinton and his administaration. Europe didnt wont to support us because Serbia (once) good relations with UK and France. So they stop Germany support for us.
Europe was insecure due French, Netherlands, UK + Russia sympathy for Serbia.

Nothing would happened if US didnt allow attack. We can play nice and lie each other but I will say frankly here. Nothing in world happened without major leauge players.
When you want to make war, even to free your country, you must get green light from international community.
Once US gave support to Croats, they moved our cuffs and we crush agressors.

So to make you simplfy- its called -Diplomacy.

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#52    Zaphod222

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 08:55 AM

View PostWearer of Hats, on 25 April 2013 - 07:15 AM, said:

http://en.wikipedia....i/Ante_Gotovina

Never read just the first line of wiki folks.

The brutalization of the Krajina Serbs is well-known to anybody who followed the Yugoslavian conflict in detail. However, you are correct that our mass media largely ignored it. They were too busy painting the Serbs alone as the bad guys.

In general, Serbia got a very rough deal with our politicians and media --- although really the other partys to the conflict behaved worse. Go figure.

"The moment you declare a set of ideas to be immune from criticism, satire, derision, or contempt, freedom of thought becomes impossible." (Salman Rushdie)

#53    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 09:02 AM

I dont see signatures. I turn off that function.

No one say that Serbs dont have their own unique culture, tradition and history. As every ethnic group.
But I love my Domovina (Homeland) more. :D Click to enlarge.

Posted Image

Edited by the L, 25 April 2013 - 09:04 AM.

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#54    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 09:04 AM

View PostZaphod222, on 25 April 2013 - 08:55 AM, said:

They were too busy painting the Serbs alone as the bad guys.

Did you ever ask yourself why NATO bomb Serbia?
I guess you dont follow Yugoslavian conflict in detail as you want to represent yourself here.

Edited by the L, 25 April 2013 - 09:05 AM.

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#55    Tutankhaten-pasheri

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 09:15 AM

View Postthe L, on 25 April 2013 - 08:51 AM, said:

Im short on time Atentutankh-pasheri so I will come back once to respond to your post.
3rd dot-Simply because European powers didnt have courage to help Croats. And they have had responsibility to react when Serbia attack us. Then Croats look for new allies.
And there was Clinton and his administaration. Europe didnt wont to support us because Serbia (once) good relations with UK and France. So they stop Germany support for us.
Europe was insecure due French, Netherlands, UK + Russia sympathy for Serbia.

Nothing would happened if US didnt allow attack. We can play nice and lie each other but I will say frankly here. Nothing in world happened without major leauge players.
When you want to make war, even to free your country, you must get green light from international community.
Once US gave support to Croats, they moved our cuffs and we crush agressors.

So to make you simplfy- its called -Diplomacy.
You are partly correct about not much major happening unless major powers wish it to happen. But what exactly was General Cosic doing in Washington talking to General Clark, who at time was, I think, commander of NATO forces in Europe. Did Clark have cosy chat with Mladic or any Serbs? I think not, so we see bias at highest level against Serbs. And any time I mention MPRI there is no response or no rational response. And I never even mentioned about German generals behind the scenes. And to say there was sympathy for Serbs from France, Nederlands, UK and US is not born out by events. I see NATO jets in the skies, but no Russian. Serbs never even got any military support from Russia except a few hundred Cossacks, mostly from Don I think, acting as individuals. And before conflating events, the VDV battalion went into Kosovo to prevent massacres of Serbs by Albanians and a NATO take over of Kosovo. They were a "Line in the sand" against appaling US/UK and German aggression aginst Serbs in Kosovo.


#56    Tutankhaten-pasheri

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 03:00 PM

Oh hi everybody, nothing to see here so please move along. I'm just putting defences in place for the firestorm about to land on me in a few hours  Posted Image

Posted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted Image


#57    Helen of Annoy

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 05:04 PM

@ L
I do appreciate your patriotism and your efforts.
I don’t think I have to say that, but let it be said anyway: I will always try to work with you in the interest of our country. I expect the same from you, even if that means we both have to sacrifice some of our giant egos :D

Now, why should we let Serbs live in Croatia? Because Croatia is the homeland of Croatian Serbs. They have Serbia as country they think is the country of their historic origin (no offence meant, there are serious theories soon to be proven true or false with genetic research, that imply Orthodox religion was not correct criteria for determining Serbian ethnicity). But their homeland is Croatia, as general Gotovina said himself.


@ both L and Britney
I agree with L, it’s outrageous to even attempt to compare Arkan and general Gotovina.
General Gotovina was cleared of charges in International Court that was not particularly fond of Croats and I was one of those people worried the purpose of said Court was to falsify history once again.
Luckily, I was partially wrong. (More than enough Serbian war criminals, such as infamous Šljivančanin, were let off the hook.)


@ Atentutankh-pasheri
Expected attacks are the waste of time, energy and resources :D


Generally speaking, Croats are not offended with implications NATO was involved in planning operation Storm, why wouldn’t that be true? There’s nothing mysterious in coordinating Croatian army actions with NATO, after all we are NATO member finally and were working on becoming one back in the 1990s.

The other kind of implications, that come from Serbian side, that NATO forces actively helped operation Storm are not offensive either, we find them hilarious, because chetniks are so embarrassed with the speed they run away from the battle and out of Croatia they had to invent excuses for why they were running so fast... and came up with whole NATO attacking them.
Well, that’s just not true. It was small but determined Croatian army, with huge advantage of being on their own territory and being sick and tired of Serbian terror.

The refugees are the victims of this war, all of them. All of them.
I saw refugees of all nations involved in our conflicts and they looked the same. They were people made homeless, worried to death for the loved ones they lost contact with, with the damn “izbjeglička torba” (refugee bag). Our markets were full of cheap large plastic bags with tartan motif, probably all came from the same ship container from China and it was so common to see fleeing people with few randomly picked items of clothing, photos, some food... in “izbjeglička torba”.
To this very day, I can’t stand to see one of those damn bags. And they keep selling them, because they are cheap and practical.

I always found bargaining with the numbers of refugees disgusting, so I appeal on people in love with the number 300,000 to think about the empty villages or villages emptied of Croats or Bosniaks. If the number of our refugees was lower than yours, then why there are deserted villages or towns ethnically cleansed of non-Serbian population?

Official Serbian stance was denying ethnic cleansing until today.
And today, Tomislav Nikolić, current Serbian president, made completely dishonest but also completely direct apology: “I am kneeling here, begging pardon for people who committed crimes in the name of Serbia.”
No turning back anymore.
Reality check is about to strike.

Posted Image

The 5 millionth post was Junior Chubb's fault :D
Donnie Darko did nothing, but I had to mention him too.

#58    Tutankhaten-pasheri

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 06:28 PM

View PostHelen of Annoy, on 25 April 2013 - 05:04 PM, said:

@ Atentutankh-pasheri
Expected attacks are the waste of time, energy and resources :D

Ladno, then I'm off to Posted Image


#59    odas

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 03:05 PM

View PostGiant Killer B, on 24 April 2013 - 03:13 PM, said:



My understanding of the situation is that during WW2 Croatians put on Nazi uniforms and went and genocided Serbs. Then the international community tried to restore peace to the Balklands by creating Yugoslavia. The Croatians rebelled in 1991 starting yet another conflict in the region. Serbia, angry at the genocide and rebellion, then got its revenge by killing Croatians.

It seems to me Croatians moan a lot at Miloevic but in truth he was a great leader. He didnt take any nonsense of them and sent his forces in to kick butt. It always seems to be Croatia starting wars and killing other people. We find them at it again now with trying to surpress minority rights.

Your understanding does not reflect the actual happening.
1991 was the culmination, the answer, to Milosevics politic and aspirations since 1987.
1987 marks the beginning of the end of Yugoslavija which was destroyed by those who apparently wanted to save it, the srebs.
I see that the serbian propaganda still works for some, unfortunately.
Buddy, chetnics were nazi colaborators, not freedom fighters.
The first partizans consisted mainly of croats, slovens, jews, muslims and some srebs. In late 1943 Tito declared amnesty for all who colaborated with nazis if they join partizans, hence the all of a sudden huge number of srebs joining the partizan ranks because they realized the strength of Titos partizans and the anti nazi recognition they recieved by Great Britain which suspended the help to chetnics when they gathered enough proof of chetnic colaboration with the nazis.

Please do not equate serbs with chetnics.
Patriotic serbs fought alongside croats and bosniacs against milosevics politic of destruction. Hell, the general in comand of the bosnian army was a serb, the comander of the defence of Sarajevo was a serb, both still alive and considered traitors by radical srebs.
Buddy, I can not discuss physics, I do not understand it. In this contest do not discuss balkans, you do not understand it.

Cheers.


#60    Tutankhaten-pasheri

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 03:27 PM

It would be very wrong for anybody to read the post above this and think that Croats were all freedom loving democrats fighting for the Allies during the war. All sides were monsters, not just one, here is the reality check.
http://en.wikipedia....rg/wiki/UstaĊĦe
And for those who cannot be bothered to click the link, here is a photo of Ustase leader Ante Pavelic shaking hands with Hitler.
Posted Image

And with Mussolini. Probably one with him with the Devil as well somewhere....
Posted Image

Edited by Atentutankh-pasheri, 26 April 2013 - 04:10 PM.





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