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Stan Gooch & The Neanderthal Legacy


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#226    jmccr8

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 03:47 AM

I was just reading this in the home page and thought I would put it here as well, as it has been part of our discussion here. Curios to hear your reaction.Thanks
jmccr8

DNA Hints At African Cousin To Humans - Science News


#227    Dragonwind

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 05:28 AM

View Postjmccr8, on 10 August 2012 - 01:51 AM, said:

Thanks, I didnt realise they had found Neanderthal skulls with conclusive proof they had done headbinding. It may be very ancient practice. Also begs the speculation of whether they performed mutilation patterns or tattoo's.


#228    jmccr8

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 11:54 PM

I was looking for information about neanderthal speech an ritual practices and came across these articles and thought that I would add them.

Neanderthal behavior - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Wilford: New findings suggest Neanderthals had gift of speech

Neanderthal's Gift Of Speech | Science and Technology | BBC World Service

web.haskins.yale.edu/sr/SR021/SR021_09.pdf

  These last two links are relative to religious aspects,the first link is in regards to a bear cult and the second link discusses shamanism


Paleolithic religion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Shaman Cape

jmccr8


#229    The Puzzler

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 05:00 AM

View Postjmccr8, on 11 August 2012 - 11:54 PM, said:

I was looking for information about neanderthal speech an ritual practices and came across these articles and thought that I would add them.

Neanderthal behavior - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Wilford: New findings suggest Neanderthals had gift of speech

Neanderthal's Gift Of Speech | Science and Technology | BBC World Service

web.haskins.yale.edu/sr/SR021/SR021_09.pdf

  These last two links are relative to religious aspects,the first link is in regards to a bear cult and the second link discusses shamanism


Paleolithic religion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Shaman Cape

jmccr8
Thanks! :)

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#230    The Puzzler

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 05:09 AM

I just wanted to add these statements from this article: http://www.sciencene...ing_with_humans

I think it sums up well just what Stan Gooch was thinking all along:

Neandertals lived in Europe, the Middle East and western Asia until they disappeared about 30,000 years ago. The new data indicate that humans may not have replaced Neandertals, but assimilated them into the human gene pool.

Neandertals are not totally extinct; they live on in some of us,” says Svante Pääbo of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology in Leipzig, Germany, and leader of the Neandertal genome project.

--
And this indicates they don't know whether interbreeding was over a long period or short period, which is interesting imo.

It is not clear how extensive interbreeding was; the data are consistent with either a short period with a great deal of interbreeding or with a long period of little interbreeding, says Richard E. (Ed) Green, a genome biologist now at the University of California Santa Cruz and a coauthor of the new study.

Edited by The Puzzler, 12 August 2012 - 05:10 AM.

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#231    jmccr8

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 01:14 AM

Hello Puzzler,

  I would tend to agree that the Neanderthals were assimilated by Homo-Sapiens, and after some of what I have been reading am inclined to think that we have also assimilated some of their beliefs and history.While looking for areas of Neanderthal habitation I came across an article about the earliest known human remains discovered in Wales that date to 230,000bp.The remains were found in a cave in River Elwy Valley.Excavations of the site between 1978-1995 revealed a further 17 teeth that belonged to 5 individuals,there were also hand axes found at this site.

Prehistoric Wales - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Old Ulster

  Although they have not found any supporting evidence of habitation in Scotland and England, it is suspected that Neanderthals made habitation in these areas as well.It has also been proposed that Neanderthals may have been in Ireland during the last iceage as part of Ireland was not covered by ice.i also found another article about Neanderthal remains found that date to 16000bp,so it would seem that there may have been pockets of Neanderthals that were still around after their supposed extinction.After reading these articles I started wondering if there may have been larger populations that lived and hunted in Doggerland.

Werkstuk Engels Wales (2 vmbo) | Scholieren.com

  The following article shows that Neanderthals understood medicinal plants and used them as remedies.

First evidence that Neanderthals used medicinal plants - National Paeleontology | Examiner.com

I thought that I would add this next link as it shows a hand axe made with a rare stone

RARE NEANDERTHAL ARTIFACTS

It would seem that Neanderthals were adept and innovative as they built shelters from mammoth bones,these shelters would be mobile and were used during the iceage so as to follow their food source.

Stone Pages Archaeo News: Neanderthals built homes with mammoth bones

  The more that I learn about these people the more possibility I see for cultural exchange.
jmccr8


#232    The Puzzler

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 12:25 PM

View Postjmccr8, on 15 August 2012 - 01:14 AM, said:

Hello Puzzler,

  I would tend to agree that the Neanderthals were assimilated by Homo-Sapiens, and after some of what I have been reading am inclined to think that we have also assimilated some of their beliefs and history.While looking for areas of Neanderthal habitation I came across an article about the earliest known human remains discovered in Wales that date to 230,000bp.The remains were found in a cave in River Elwy Valley.Excavations of the site between 1978-1995 revealed a further 17 teeth that belonged to 5 individuals,there were also hand axes found at this site.

Prehistoric Wales - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Old Ulster

  Although they have not found any supporting evidence of habitation in Scotland and England, it is suspected that Neanderthals made habitation in these areas as well.It has also been proposed that Neanderthals may have been in Ireland during the last iceage as part of Ireland was not covered by ice.i also found another article about Neanderthal remains found that date to 16000bp,so it would seem that there may have been pockets of Neanderthals that were still around after their supposed extinction.After reading these articles I started wondering if there may have been larger populations that lived and hunted in Doggerland.

Werkstuk Engels Wales (2 vmbo) | Scholieren.com

  The following article shows that Neanderthals understood medicinal plants and used them as remedies.

First evidence that Neanderthals used medicinal plants - National Paeleontology | Examiner.com

I thought that I would add this next link as it shows a hand axe made with a rare stone

RARE NEANDERTHAL ARTIFACTS

It would seem that Neanderthals were adept and innovative as they built shelters from mammoth bones,these shelters would be mobile and were used during the iceage so as to follow their food source.

Stone Pages Archaeo News: Neanderthals built homes with mammoth bones

  The more that I learn about these people the more possibility I see for cultural exchange.
jmccr8

:tu:

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#233    cormac mac airt

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 06:21 PM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 12 August 2012 - 05:09 AM, said:

I just wanted to add these statements from this article: http://www.sciencene...ing_with_humans

I think it sums up well just what Stan Gooch was thinking all along:

Neandertals lived in Europe, the Middle East and western Asia until they disappeared about 30,000 years ago. The new data indicate that humans may not have replaced Neandertals, but assimilated them into the human gene pool.

“Neandertals are not totally extinct; they live on in some of us,” says Svante Pääbo of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology in Leipzig, Germany, and leader of the Neandertal genome project.

--
And this indicates they don't know whether interbreeding was over a long period or short period, which is interesting imo.

It is not clear how extensive interbreeding was; the data are consistent with either a short period with a great deal of interbreeding or with a long period of little interbreeding, says Richard E. (Ed) Green, a genome biologist now at the University of California Santa Cruz and a coauthor of the new study.

Not much of an assimilation really, since while we may share some nuclear DNA we don't share Y Chromosome or mitochondrial DNA.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#234    lightly

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 07:43 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 16 August 2012 - 06:21 PM, said:

Not much of an assimilation really, since while we may share some nuclear DNA we don't share Y Chromosome or mitochondrial DNA.

cormac
Hi cormac , friendly neighborhood genetics guru,     Would we also share nuclear DNA with other critters,  besides people?

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#235    Dragonwind

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 12:35 AM

Interesting that they have done some testing on the ice man found at Tyrol. Check out john hawks blog:
http://johnhawks.net...-iced-2012.html
Otzi had nearly twice the neanderthal ancestry of modern Europeans - and was found in a mountainous area of Europe.

'Meanwhile, I can share the abstract of the conference paper I'll be presenting in September at the meeting of the European Society of Human Evolution in Bordeaux:

Evaluating recent evolution, migration and Neandertal ancestry in the Tyrolean Iceman

Paleogenetic evidence from Neandertals, the Neolithic and other eras has the potential to transform our knowledge of human population dynamics. Previous work has established the level of contribution of Neandertals to living human populations. Here, I consider data from the Tyrolean Iceman. The genome of this Neolithic-era individual shows a substantially higher degree of Ne- andertal ancestry than living Europeans. This comparison suggests that early Upper Paleolithic Europeans may have mixed with Neandertals to a greater degree than other modern human populations. I also use this genome to evaluate the pattern of selection in post-Neolithic Europeans. In large part, the evidence of selection from living people’s genetic data is confirmed by this specimen, but in some cases selection may be disproved by the Iceman’s genotypes. Neolithic-living human comparisons provide information about migration and diffusion of genes into Europe. I compare these data to the situation within Neandertals, and the transition of Neandertals to Upper Paleolithic populations – three demographic transitions in Europe that generated strong genetic disequi- libria in successive populations.'

Edited by Dragonwind, 17 August 2012 - 12:36 AM.


#236    cormac mac airt

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 02:41 PM

View Postlightly, on 16 August 2012 - 07:43 PM, said:

Hi cormac , friendly neighborhood genetics guru, Would we also share nuclear DNA with other critters,  besides people?

At best, we appear to share some nuclear DNA with other hominids. In fact, it appears we may have done that at least 4 times. Once with Neanderthals, once with Denisovans and twice with separate lines in Africa prior to the Out-of-Africa migration. But none of this is enough to say that we 'assimilated' them or that 'they are us and we are them', both of which have been used in the press to describe the situation while neither accurately reflecting it.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#237    lightly

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 03:49 PM

ah, ok,   Thanks a lot cormac.      My friend Mr. Google  wasn't immediately forthcoming on the question of us sharing any sort of DNA  with say,  frogs  or sponges or whatever.  I just wondered if we somehow did...  or, what sort of genetic material we shared.. if any?

As for Stan Gooch's idea,   I would think we must have had some cultural Exchange with our Neanderthal cousins. How much is probably hard to figure out.

Important:  The above may contain errors, inaccuracies, omissions, and other limitations.

#238    cormac mac airt

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 05:17 PM

View Postlightly, on 17 August 2012 - 03:49 PM, said:

ah, ok,   Thanks a lot cormac. My friend Mr. Google  wasn't immediately forthcoming on the question of us sharing any sort of DNA  with say,  frogs  or sponges or whatever.  I just wondered if we somehow did...  or, what sort of genetic material we shared.. if any?

As for Stan Gooch's idea,   I would think we must have had some cultural Exchange with our Neanderthal cousins. How much is probably hard to figure out.

That really gets into a whole different area, lightly, since in the broadest sense ALL lifeforms on Earth share a genetic relationship. But it doesn't really factor into the human question until we see close genetic relationships such as with HSS and other hominids and it can be determined HOW close those relationships are/were.

Another question that comes to mind is how much of any cultural exchange was "active" instead of "passive". In other words, how much was actually shared/taught by one group to the other as opposed to just copied/mimiced from something one group or the other may have seen but not necessarily understood.

cormac

Edited by cormac mac airt, 17 August 2012 - 05:18 PM.

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#239    lightly

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 11:32 PM

Thanks for the explanation.


   ... and that seems like a good point cormac.    Observation without interaction.  .. (You should see the way they make fire!*)      
It's interesting to think about the possibilities.

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#240    jmccr8

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 06:24 PM

Hi Cormac,

   Glad to see that you are back in the thread,and yes it is possible that somethings may be copied from one culture by another through observation.I have learned things in my trade or other associated trades in the same manner,however I was not hiding behind a rock or tree when it happened,I was in an environment where I was interacting with others and able to observe them while they worked.They knew I was there, they either didn't care or were not aware that I was observing them.

   The settlement of North America by Europeans gives us some examples of interactions where one culture aids in the survival of another.Thanksgiving Day is based on how one culture saw that another new culture was not able to survive without their help, and took compassion on them.Could something similar have happened with Neanderthals and Homo-Sapiens? Neanderthals had existed in colder climates and would have been well adapted to surviving, some of the articles in the pages of this thread have shown that Neanderthals had compassion and cared for others that had been injured or unable to survive without assistance,is it possible that they mentored Homo-Sapiens in some ways?
jmccr8





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