461 replies to this topic

[Rlyeh]

Mr Right Wing, on 08 December 2012 - 12:44 PM, said:

Photons only exist when they're being measured (last page the Dr Quantum Vid)

This is what happens when you get your education from YouTube. Haha.
In wave particle duality, photons behave as particles or waves. They are called photons in either case. You've been corrected on this before.

Edited by Rlyeh, 08 December 2012 - 03:09 PM.

[Beckys_Mom]

Rlyeh, on 08 December 2012 - 03:02 PM, said:

This is what happens when you get your education from YouTube. Haha.

Too funny

[Mr Right Wing]

Rlyeh, on 08 December 2012 - 03:02 PM, said:

This is what happens when you get your education from YouTube. Haha.
In wave particle duality, photons behave as particles or waves. They are called photons in either case. You've been corrected on this before.

You've been corrected on this before.

A wavefunction is not a particle. These mistakes about science happen when you dont progress beyond high school.

Edited by Mr Right Wing, 08 December 2012 - 04:44 PM.

[Rlyeh]

Mr Right Wing, on 08 December 2012 - 04:43 PM, said:

You've been corrected on this before.

A wavefunction is not a particle. These mistakes about science happen when you dont progress beyond high school.

You're a fricking genius. THE WAVE IS NOT THE WAVEFUNCTION.

Clueless as ever.
http://en.wikipedia....article_duality

[FlyingAngel]

Looking at the sky, watching the stars, then wondering what has given you this intelligence, an intelligence which let you wondering about the existence of the universe that none other animal can. Then you know the answer doesn't even matter. It is it, a power force that can hide its own existence, casting a doubt to keep the balance between faith and science.
It is telling us to look at the future, the past doesn't matter.

[Seeker79]

Imaginarynumber1, on 08 December 2012 - 12:51 PM, said:

And the moon isn't real unless I look at it. *sigh* Forget it.

He's right. A wave function is simply a mathematical  construct, when a particle is in superposition it does not exist in spacetime as we know it. It only returns to spacetime upon measurement. This is not new agy fluff. It is fact.

Where it any other way, Quantum tunneling would not happen, and the josephson junction would not work. Detailed experiments have been done to show that the particle is completely gone and not actually traveling through spacetime. This is why the particle can emerge on the other side of an obstacle haveing never interacted with the obstacle itself.

Think of it as way for the universe to conserve storge space. Think of doom. You only see what you are looking at. It dosnt mean that the rest of the map isn't there just not constructed yet only programmed for, if the computer constructed every piece of the map at one time it would very quickly use a tremendous amount of space. Instead... Each part of the map carries the instruction for the next part based on what you are  looking at / measuring.

I know it's counter intuitive, but this is exactly how the quantum world behaves.

[Seeker79]

Rlyeh, on 08 December 2012 - 06:32 PM, said:

You're a fricking genius. THE WAVE IS NOT THE WAVEFUNCTION.

Clueless as ever.
http://en.wikipedia....article_duality

There is no wave.

[scowl]

Mr Right Wing, on 08 December 2012 - 11:57 AM, said:

My definition of God is of the non-duality variety not the Christain one.

For those keeping score, we aren't allowed to talk about objects like stones because they only exist in our minds.

However Mr. Right Wing is allowed to talk at length about his make-believe God based on quantum theory that he learned on YouTube and that's supposed to make perfect sense.

[Beckys_Mom]

scowl, on 08 December 2012 - 09:34 PM, said:

For those keeping score, we aren't allowed to talk about objects like stones because they only exist in our minds.

Well he is right they do exist in minds.. He is living proof, his head is filled with rocks  lol

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 08 December 2012 - 09:47 PM.

[Mr Walker]

Mr Right Wing, on 08 December 2012 - 11:57 AM, said:

My definition of God is of the non-duality variety not the Christain one.

The only thing that actually exists is mind. The ideas, beliefs, knowledge, information and perceptions it contains arent objectively real they are subjections.

In a materialist society your are taught that an external reality (outside of your mind) exists and that you are the end product of it (atoms arranged in a certain order). As such your are led into the delusion (without realising it) that you are the sum of your own perceptions. The result is if you have negative thoughts the health of your mind quickly deteriorates.

It is your mind that creates perceptions not perceptions which have created the mind. If you step back and take an unbiased stance you would be able to see that perceptions exist outside of your head. Colour being the perfect example. The reason why perceptions exist outside of your head is because reality and the mind are not two seperate things.

And hence we arrive at non-dualism where everything that exists is mind and the idea of seperate parts is an illusion. Me, you, and everything else are not seperate we are all one which is what God is.

Ah modern descartianism. While you will never accept it, it is of course descartes and yourself who were/are living in an illusion.

That illusion exists because of the nature of the human mind which puts itself centre stage in the universe. it is a similar process to the religious view which once placed earth at the centre of the universe and considered tha the sun must revolve around the earth. I find it fascinating, however, that you have arrived at a central truth, even  through an incorrect concept.   All material things are real;  so is consciousness, because it is a material property of the brain.

Conscious has certain properties, including an abilty to be linked to other consciousnesses, hence the perception /reality of one cosmic consciousness. But  consciousness is not a stand- alone property which came before or existd independently of the material universe. It is an evolved property of the physical/material universe; in part an organic function and perhaps also an engineered and artificial one.
Ps I am not sure how many readers are aawre of this but there is a conjunction between some very modern aspects of science and the descartian model of reality. Indeed the descartian model is used to underpin the scientific theory.
Some scientists argue, and offer proofs, that everything is a matter of human perception and that nothing has reality outside of how we see it. Or more precisely, that reality may exist but we perceive and shape that reality into intelligible form via our  minds/perceptions.
However it is much more common for modern descartians in philosophy to use aspects of modern physics to ARGUE the case  which mr right wing puts forward. It is more valid/accepted as a modern philosophical POV than as a scientific one


To me it doesnt fit the rest of known science and leads us to a dead end as does descartian philosophy Humans are an integral evolved product of the universe. We adapted /evolved to perceive the universe as it is and to interact with it as it is; other wise we could not survive in it. Hence the only realistic view  and the only workable model, is that the universe is exactly as we perceive it to be.

Edited by Mr Walker, 08 December 2012 - 11:02 PM.

[Rlyeh]

Seeker79, on 08 December 2012 - 09:06 PM, said:

There is no wave.

The double slit experiment shows the photon physically behaving as a wave.
Please don't do a Mr Right Wing and pretend it ceases to exist.

[Rlyeh]

Seeker79, on 08 December 2012 - 09:03 PM, said:

He's right. A wave function is simply a mathematical  construct, when a particle is in superposition it does not exist in spacetime as we know it. It only returns to spacetime upon measurement. This is not new agy fluff. It is fact.

Where it any other way, Quantum tunneling would not happen, and the josephson junction would not work. Detailed experiments have been done to show that the particle is completely gone and not actually traveling through spacetime. This is why the particle can emerge on the other side of an obstacle haveing never interacted with the obstacle itself.

You're confusing the wave behavior with the wave function. As the names imply, one is a physical while the other is mathematical.
Until you can produce an experiment that shows the particle and the wave doesn't exist (thus contradicting wave-particle duality and every experiment that has confirmed it.), you're arguing in circles.
You and Mr nutjob are the ones I've seen peddling this asinine BS.

[Mr Right Wing]

Seeker79, on 08 December 2012 - 09:03 PM, said:

He's right. A wave function is simply a mathematical  construct, when a particle is in superposition it does not exist in spacetime as we know it. It only returns to spacetime upon measurement. This is not new agy fluff. It is fact.

Where it any other way, Quantum tunneling would not happen, and the josephson junction would not work. Detailed experiments have been done to show that the particle is completely gone and not actually traveling through spacetime. This is why the particle can emerge on the other side of an obstacle haveing never interacted with the obstacle itself.

Think of it as way for the universe to conserve storge space. Think of doom. You only see what you are looking at. It dosnt mean that the rest of the map isn't there just not constructed yet only programmed for, if the computer constructed every piece of the map at one time it would very quickly use a tremendous amount of space. Instead... Each part of the map carries the instruction for the next part based on what you are  looking at / measuring.

I know it's counter intuitive, but this is exactly how the quantum world behaves.

A good analogy but you are battling against someone with materialism deeply engrained into his mind.

[Mr Right Wing]

Mr Walker, on 08 December 2012 - 10:49 PM, said:

1. Ah modern descartianism.
2.That illusion exists because of the nature of the human mind which puts itself centre stage in the universe.
3. I find it fascinating, however, that you have arrived at a central truth, even  through an incorrect concept.   All material things are real;  so is consciousness, because it is a material property of the brain.
4. Consciousness is not a stand- alone property which came before or existed independently of the material universe.
5. Some scientists argue, and offer proofs, that everything is a matter of human perception and that nothing has reality outside of how we see it.
6. Reality may exist but we perceive and shape that reality into intelligible form via our  minds/perceptions.
7. However it is much more common for modern descartians in philosophy to use aspects of modern physics to ARGUE the case  which mr right wing puts forward.
8. It is more valid/accepted as a modern philosophical POV than as a scientific one
9. To me it doesnt fit the rest of known science.
10. We adapted evolved to perceive the universe as it is and to interact with it as it is other wise we could not survive in it.

1. A solipsist believes that only their mind exists and everything else is an illusion. I'm not a solipsist I'm a non-dualist. The difference is that I realise the whole universe is my mind because its just a collection of perceptions. Thats the crucial difference.
2. That misconception arises because you dont know the difference between solipsism and non-dualism. My mind isnt at the centre of the universe I am the universe.
3. The reason why you think my concepts are incorrect is you dont know the difference between solipsism and non-dualism.
4. When you cant see that reality is just a collection of perceptions then you mistake your mind for being a product of those perceptions. You mind makes the perceptions it isnt constructed from them.
5. Precisely. Quantum Mechanics has 100s of experiments all saying that.
6. The dual slit experiment shows that not even the atom exists until measured.
7. In what way is Quantum Mechanics not non-dualism? You dont understand either.
8. No, its what Quantum Mechanics says.
9. You dont have a physics degree (or similar) which is why you have that stance. If you knew what they taught you on a physics degree you'd be stunned. You live in a dumbed down society where you arent taught the truth so you dont know any different. The Newtonian view of reality was proved wrong over 100 years ago. We are on Quantum Physics these days.
10. Much of science remains based on the Newtonian view of reality. To date Quantum Mechanics is used in electronics (tvs, pcs, dvd players, etc), in some fields of medicine (x-rays, radiation therapy), in aviation (stealth bombers, radar), in communications (fibre optics, mobile phones, radios) and one or two other little areas. Evolution is at odds with Quantum Mechanics but that field of science hasnt been touched by it, yet.

Treat yourself this Christmans - http://compare.ebay....&var=sbar&cbt=y

Rlyeh, on 09 December 2012 - 07:30 AM, said:

You're confusing the wave behavior with the wave function. As the names imply, one is a physical while the other is mathematical.
Until you can produce an experiment that shows the particle and the wave doesn't exist (thus contradicting wave-particle duality and every experiment that has confirmed it.), you're arguing in circles.
You and Mr nutjob are the ones I've seen peddling this asinine BS.

Did you not understand what was in the video?

Edited by Mr Right Wing, 09 December 2012 - 01:39 PM.

[Seeker79]

Rlyeh, on 09 December 2012 - 07:30 AM, said:

You're confusing the wave behavior with the wave function. As the names imply, one is a physical while the other is mathematical.
Until you can produce an experiment that shows the particle and the wave doesn't exist (thus contradicting wave-particle duality and every experiment that has confirmed it.), you're arguing in circles.
You and Mr nutjob are the ones I've seen peddling this asinine BS.

The josephson junction is the physical proof. I'm not confusing no such thing. A wave has very specific physical properties through a medium. As I mentioned there is no wave. Wave behavior.... Sure superficialy... But no wave.

Listen. The particle does exist but only after being detected. When it is in superposition it's not a thing as we understand things to be. Part of our understanding of "things" is that they exist in spacetime. We know for a fact that an object in superposition can manifest in a range of places ( this is the wave function). If that range extends through a barrier, the particle can manifest on the other side of the barrier without ever haveing to go through the barrier which shows us it is not traveling through spacetime . In fact the wave function does not have a limit. It actually extends throughout the whole universe just decreasing in ever minute probabilities. Fusion in the sun relies on this.

Your mind wants to see the particle traveling through space to strike a detection screen, but this is simply not the case.

I would even consider the particle entering some kind of sub space, but that would be pure speculation. The fact of the matter is that we define THINGS as existing in SPACETIME. A particle in superposition is no longer a thing as we define it.

Uncertainty is not a flaw in our detection abilities. It is a fundamental property of the universe. The quantum world dosnt look fuzzy it IS fuzzy.

You can look it all up yourself. Plenty of research, experiments, and proof is available.

Now. It's quit obvious that these properties of reality are quite complex an operate outside the universe as defined by spacetime. Purely immaterial properties that ultimately govern the material. Fundamental reality has nothing to do with stuff. It has to do with rules that are uniquly calibrated to create reality upon measurement.