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Doubt and faith


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#31    KBA

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 08:03 AM

I have learned when it's healthy and when to throw the whole question out and ask why I need to know in the first place.  Not just in spiritual things but any excessive doubt can be crippling, you know?  But that's my approach to religious stuff lately.  I just don't need to know and I wasted way too much time thinking about it anyway.  I guess that is not a very religious stance :yes:



#32    SpiritWriter

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 03:24 PM

View PostKBA, on 09 October 2013 - 08:03 AM, said:

I have learned when it's healthy and when to throw the whole question out and ask why I need to know in the first place.  Not just in spiritual things but any excessive doubt can be crippling, you know?  But that's my approach to religious stuff lately.  I just don't need to know and I wasted way too much time thinking about it anyway.  I guess that is not a very religious stance :yes:

I think it is better to admit we don't know something than to pretend we do know something we don't know, or get massive headaches trying to figure out a problem that can never be answered. Spiritual life is an everyday process, not a final answer to an unanswerable question. We pick up strategies and knowledge on the way, but even that can change as life goes on. That's why religion is based on faith. The longer I walk in Faith the more I can trust in it and see it working. I don't know how it will work out and at times I even get doubtful, but applying faith has worked so far, enough that I know to continue with that formula.

The letter kills but The Spirit gives life. 2 Corinthians 3:6

Non-ambiguity and non-contradiction are one sided and thus unsuited to express the incomprehensible. -Jung

#33    KBA

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 04:28 PM

View PostSpiritWriter, on 09 October 2013 - 03:24 PM, said:

I think it is better to admit we don't know something than to pretend we do know something we don't know, or get massive headaches trying to figure out a problem that can never be answered. Spiritual life is an everyday process, not a final answer to an unanswerable question. We pick up strategies and knowledge on the way, but even that can change as life goes on. That's why religion is based on faith. The longer I walk in Faith the more I can trust in it and see it working. I don't know how it will work out and at times I even get doubtful, but applying faith has worked so far, enough that I know to continue with that formula.

That's cool.  A lot of times I wish I had faith in something too.  Actually, I love the people around me, so I would say I have faith in them!

...Mostly, hahah.



#34    Ben Masada

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 07:34 AM

View Postmarkdohle, on 21 September 2013 - 12:17 PM, said:

Doubt and faith


Doubt and faith go together, an inner tension that allows choice and seeking.


I have found that those who are sure of themselves, without doubt, come across as angry, myopic and fearful of other ways of thought.  Eric Hoffa said that the sign of a fanatic is one who can't abide anyone believing or thinking differently than them.  A fanatical Christian for instance, if he or she loses their faith will become a fanatical atheist, and vise-verse of course.

How do you deal with doubt?  I am speaking to both atheist and believers.  Even though I am not an atheist, I do believe that 'truth' is something we all seek at ever deeper levels. To stop seeking truth, is to I believe becoming a fanatic of some sort.  Both fundamentalism and atheism are for me too simplistic an answer to the complexity and mystery of our existence.  The big questions can't be answered by science, though without science we would be worse off than we are now.  I believe that both science and religion as well as philosophy are equally important for mankind. PeaceMark

Hi Mark, I do not agree that doubt and faith go together. IMHO, doubt goes together with curiosity which are both the daughters of knowledge. Real faith cannot doubt. No wonder that the founder of Christianity aka Paul preferred that Christians walked by faith and not by sight. (II Cor.5:7) The reason is that those who walk by faith need a guide, a cane or a dog and Paul wanted to be that... well, guide. He hated people who walk by sight. These usually have a mind of their own and Paul did not want that for his followers.


#35    No-thingBornPassion

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 08:51 AM

View Postdavros of skaro, on 21 September 2013 - 10:31 PM, said:

...due to my budding reasoning,and sought out my own answer.
That's great!

View Postdavros of skaro, on 21 September 2013 - 10:31 PM, said:

I do not consider it faith to believe in the Law of Gravity,because if a more sensible explanation backed by evidence comes forth I would not hold onto old ideas that hypothetically left obsolete by the new.
I'm all for that, and I'm a good example. I was Kundalini channeler, and now, I'm a Christ follower. I'm in with the "new" that's given me the result that my heart sincerely wanted. Mind you, I'm not saying that Kundalini Yoga is not real...

View Postdavros of skaro, on 21 September 2013 - 10:31 PM, said:

Why is faith such a good thing especially if tactics of punishment vs reward is involved which leads to the logic inclined to be suspicious of such said faith?
I call myself a Christian because I know that Jesus Christ is real, and I feel that Spirit in my heart; however, the stories about Him are something else. Everything we have about Him is hearsay and interpretation and manipulation. Before I converted back to Christianity, if I had based my life on the Bible, I would have checked myself as the most sinful person in the world for worshiping the force inside of me, as in apotheosis. Stranger than fiction, Jesus took me out of that Void, as I've mentioned to you before. I think that says a lot. He either keeps His salvation promise seriously...or the Bible should be treated as a mere collection of fairy tales because one doesn't need the Bible to see Jesus, in the end. I certainly didn't bug my eyes while reading the Bible before my Void experience. Unless, I did something wonderful to deserve the meeting? True, I have always believed in karma (as in patterns), and I'm naturally kind, relatively honest, and all the "good" things that go with being me, living in this complex (spiritual, of the "spirit") world, and experiencing the afterlife 3 times in one lifetime alone.

"...punishment vs reward..." Sounds human-centric to me, and it reeks of manipulation or human control. In the end, we really don't know EXACTLY what Jesus or God said. On the other hand, hearsay "is always a good read," as I always say. Alas, I love to read and do research, in spite of everything...for I have all the time in the world.

Peace.

"Also, if they (Gospels) were written early (before 70 AD), this would mean that there would not have been enough time for myth to creep into the gospel accounts since it was the eyewitnesses to Christ's life that wrote them."

#36    markdohle

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 10:26 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 10 October 2013 - 07:34 AM, said:

Hi Mark, I do not agree that doubt and faith go together. IMHO, doubt goes together with curiosity which are both the daughters of knowledge. Real faith cannot doubt. No wonder that the founder of Christianity aka Paul preferred that Christians walked by faith and not by sight. (II Cor.5:7) The reason is that those who walk by faith need a guide, a cane or a dog and Paul wanted to be that... well, guide. He hated people who walk by sight. These usually have a mind of their own and Paul did not want that for his followers.

That is not true.  You cannot get away from doubt, if someone says they don't have it, then they do in fact become hard and angry when challenged.  There are many books written about doubt by Christians, it is expected.  St. Paul had a powerful experience, that is what he went by,he shared it, others pass on their experience and it is presented with certain language.  The Risen Lord, the reality of the experience is the reason people follow Christ Jesus.  No one thinks for himself, there is always a thread followed, ways of thought read and then experience will make how they present their beliefs in a unique way.

Peace
Mark


#37    SpiritWriter

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 12:22 AM

View Postmarkdohle, on 21 September 2013 - 12:17 PM, said:

Doubt and faith


Doubt and faith go together, an inner tension that allows choice and seeking.


I have found that those who are sure of themselves, without doubt, come across as angry, myopic and fearful of other ways of thought.  Eric Hoffa said that the sign of a fanatic is one who can't abide anyone believing or thinking differently than them.  A fanatical Christian for instance, if he or she loses their faith will become a fanatical atheist, and vise-verse of course.

How do you deal with doubt?  I am speaking to both atheist and believers.  Even though I am not an atheist, I do believe that 'truth' is something we all seek at ever deeper levels. To stop seeking truth, is to I believe becoming a fanatic of some sort.  Both fundamentalism and atheism are for me too simplistic an answer to the complexity and mystery of our existence.  The big questions can't be answered by science, though without science we would be worse off than we are now.  I believe that both science and religion as well as philosophy are equally important for mankind.

Peace
Mark

These days I don't doubt as much as I used to. I always felt guilty that I doubted God and this went on for years. I felt like the Isrealites in the wilderness sometimes but one of my main prayers was that I would never forget the things that God has done for me and that God would never leave me and guess what, he never has. :) more and more I can hear, feel, know him/her/it and really understand what it means to trust god. I pray that I will never return to my doubtful years. I will not say I never have doubts, but if I really think about it I will know for sure that I can (trust God). After making that decision time after time I can truly say God has never failed me yet.



The letter kills but The Spirit gives life. 2 Corinthians 3:6

Non-ambiguity and non-contradiction are one sided and thus unsuited to express the incomprehensible. -Jung

#38    notforgotten

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 01:20 AM

Hi SpiritWriter, :yes: it's been a long time. I believe that one should pray for revelation and discernment, and stay vigilant to receive such.


#39    Ben Masada

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 05:00 AM

View Postmarkdohle, on 11 October 2013 - 10:26 PM, said:

That is not true.  You cannot get away from doubt, if someone says they don't have it, then they do in fact become hard and angry when challenged.  There are many books written about doubt by Christians, it is expected.  St. Paul had a powerful experience, that is what he went by,he shared it, others pass on their experience and it is presented with certain language.  The Risen Lord, the reality of the experience is the reason people follow Christ Jesus.  No one thinks for himself, there is always a thread followed, ways of thought read and then experience will make how they present their beliefs in a unique way.

Peace
Mark

I am glad you said "The risen Lord is the reason people follow Christ Jesus."  You are right because Paul declared to his disciple Timothy that both: Jesus as Christ and that he had resurrected was according to his own gospel. (II Tim. 2:8) It means that there was another gospel that preached about Jesus differently from the gospel of Paul. When he came to Jerusalem and listened to the Apostles he was impressed by the idea that they were preaching a different Jesus. He had found the other gospel. Hence he considered them as false apostles. (II Cor. 11:3-6,13) Therefore the contradiction of your words is that the gospel of Jesus and that of Paul were opposite to each other. Sounds like a paradox, doesn't it?


#40    markdohle

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 05:44 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 12 October 2013 - 05:00 AM, said:

I am glad you said "The risen Lord is the reason people follow Christ Jesus."  You are right because Paul declared to his disciple Timothy that both: Jesus as Christ and that he had resurrected was according to his own gospel. (II Tim. 2:8) It means that there was another gospel that preached about Jesus differently from the gospel of Paul. When he came to Jerusalem and listened to the Apostles he was impressed by the idea that they were preaching a different Jesus. He had found the other gospel. Hence he considered them as false apostles. (II Cor. 11:3-6,13) Therefore the contradiction of your words is that the gospel of Jesus and that of Paul were opposite to each other. Sounds like a paradox, doesn't it?

Paul and the Apostles worked together.  The differences had to do with the law, not with the reality of Jesus Christ, if that were true, I am sure that would have been a real problem.

Peace
Mark


#41    Ben Masada

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 09:53 AM

View Postmarkdohle, on 13 October 2013 - 05:44 PM, said:

Paul and the Apostles worked together.  The differences had to do with the law, not with the reality of Jesus Christ, if that were true, I am sure that would have been a real problem.Peace Mark

Would you please quote to me where Paul and the Apostles worked together? If they did how could they preach different gospels? (II Cor.11:4) Furthermore, if they did work together how could the Apostles have rejected Paul as a disciple?(Acts 9:26) And about the difference that had to do with the Law, I agree with you 100%. That's why the Apostles had no problem with the local Jews in Jerusalem and Paul almost got killed as he would preach against the Law. (Acts 21:21) And indeed that was real problem not only between Paul and the Apostles but also between Paul and the Jews in general.

Edited by Ben Masada, 14 October 2013 - 09:54 AM.


#42    markdohle

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 12:16 PM

The fact that St. Paul is part of the Canon points to the reality that he was accepted by the early church and that his letters where not in conflict with the 4 Gospels or with the Apostles.  When he came to Jerusalem he presented his case, his call to preach to gentiles, he was accepted.  The Gospel of Luke and Acts were written by the same author.  Below deals with the short lived controversy about the place of the law in the life of Christians.

Quote

15:20 but that we write to them that they abstain from the pollution of idols, from sexual immorality, from what is strangled, and from blood.  15:22 Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole assembly, to choose men out of their company, and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas: Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, chief men among the brothers.  15:24 Because we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, ‘You must be circumcised and keep the law,’ to whom we gave no commandment;  15:26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.  15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay no greater burden on you than these necessary things:  15:29 that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality, from which if you keep yourselves, it will be well with you. Farewell.”



#43    Ben Masada

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 09:48 AM

View Postmarkdohle, on 14 October 2013 - 12:16 PM, said:

The fact that St. Paul is part of the Canon points to the reality that he was accepted by the early church and that his letters where not in conflict with the 4 Gospels or with the Apostles.  When he came to Jerusalem he presented his case, his call to preach to gentiles, he was accepted.  The Gospel of Luke and Acts were written by the same author.  Below deals with the short lived controversy about the place of the law in the life of Christians.

Paul was never accepted by the Nazarenes disciples of the Apostles. He tried to join the Sect of the Nazarenes yes, but because of his history as persecutor of the New Way aka the Nazarenes, the Apostles did not believe he could be a disciple. Barnabas also a bachelor like Paul for some weird reason fell for him and put a good word with the Apostles in his favor so that Paul could stay on a trial basis. After listening for a while to the gospel preached by the Apostles he concluded that they were preaching a different Jesus, took them as false apostles and went ahead with his own gospel in Jerusalem. He caused such a havoc in Jerusalem that he was almost killed by the local Jews for preaching idolatry in Jerusalem. (II Cor.11:3-6,13) It was then that James helped him to escape back to Tarsus where he belonged.(Acts 9:26-31) The help was granted not for Paul but for the credibility of the Sect of the Nazarenes headquartered in Jerusalem. It didn't work though because 14 years later Paul returned, was arrested, taken to Court and connected by Tertullus the Attorney as a ringleader to the Sect of the Nazarenes because of those 15 days he was allowed on a trial basis and because James had helped him escape justice. (Acts 24:1-5)


#44    markdohle

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 12:23 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 15 October 2013 - 09:48 AM, said:

Paul was never accepted by the Nazarenes disciples of the Apostles. He tried to join the Sect of the Nazarenes yes, but because of his history as persecutor of the New Way aka the Nazarenes, the Apostles did not believe he could be a disciple. Barnabas also a bachelor like Paul for some weird reason fell for him and put a good word with the Apostles in his favor so that Paul could stay on a trial basis. After listening for a while to the gospel preached by the Apostles he concluded that they were preaching a different Jesus, took them as false apostles and went ahead with his own gospel in Jerusalem. He caused such a havoc in Jerusalem that he was almost killed by the local Jews for preaching idolatry in Jerusalem. (II Cor.11:3-6,13) It was then that James helped him to escape back to Tarsus where he belonged.(Acts 9:26-31) The help was granted not for Paul but for the credibility of the Sect of the Nazarenes headquartered in Jerusalem. It didn't work though because 14 years later Paul returned, was arrested, taken to Court and connected by Tertullus the Attorney as a ringleader to the Sect of the Nazarenes because of those 15 days he was allowed on a trial basis and because James had helped him escape justice. (Acts 24:1-5)


True Paul was a colorful character an in some parts of the early church he had little influence.  Yet he was put in the canon and I for one love him and read him just as much as I do the Gospels.   The early church was really a sect of the Jewish faith, they worshiped with the Jews, but had their own liturgy in their homes.  Paul was given the task of opening up their narrow understanding of salvation, that was based on the belief that one had to be Jewish first and follow the law.  Paul had the insight that Salvation was a gift, and in fact the law would only get in the way of grace.  Actually this still going on today ;-0.  In any-case, St. Paul is very important for the church today.  Things have to be worked out over a period of time, just like how the Church looks on Jesus and the Trinity., that took generations of thought.

There are many Christians who don't like St. Paul, but again, I for one, believe he put back bone into the Church.  Just as the other epistles of Peter, James, John did as well.

Peace
mark


#45    Philangeli

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 07:52 AM

View PostBen Masada, on 12 October 2013 - 05:00 AM, said:

I am glad you said "The risen Lord is the reason people follow Christ Jesus."  You are right because Paul declared to his disciple Timothy that both: Jesus as Christ and that he had resurrected was according to his own gospel. (II Tim. 2:8) It means that there was another gospel that preached about Jesus differently from the gospel of Paul. When he came to Jerusalem and listened to the Apostles he was impressed by the idea that they were preaching a different Jesus. He had found the other gospel. Hence he considered them as false apostles. (II Cor. 11:3-6,13) Therefore the contradiction of your words is that the gospel of Jesus and that of Paul were opposite to each other. Sounds like a paradox, doesn't it?

If Christ existed and was truly the Son of God and established his Church on earth, he would hardly have allowed a false church to rise and prevail over the true one, surely?

If you believe the Church is not ordained by God, then why doesn't Jehovah of the Old Testament strike it down? The Church has prevailed for 2,000 years. When is Jehovah going to intervene to elevate the Jewish religion, instead of punishing their followers for the past 2,000 years? When is he going to part the Red Sea to destroy Israel's enemies?

Yes, Paul had a big influence on the development of Christian teaching, but don't forget that the Catholic Church goes back to St Peter, to whom Christ said, 'Thou art Peter and upon this rock I shall build my Church'. The Petrine apostolic succession continues to this day through the Popes.

There were many varying ideas and beliefs of exactly who Jesus was. Paul, inspired by the Holy Spirit (according to Christians), helped consolidate those ideas into a unified belief system.

Philangeli aka Cantando


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From: Doubt and faith

By markdohle in markdohle's Blog, on 23 September 2013 - 12:23 PM

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if there is no doubt we will not check our answers.
doubt demands the answers be clear and solid.
seeking evidence is the means to satiate doubt

if there is no faith we will not look for answers.
faith...

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