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Near-death experiences are 'electrical surge


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#121    White Crane Feather

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Posted 03 December 2013 - 06:18 PM

View Postpsyche101, on 03 December 2013 - 08:06 AM, said:

I have, which leads me to the questions I am proposing.

That's what I am saying, all local, things they could hear, albeit unconscious. The lobby may well have a vent going near the room for instance, these are what I consider Clayton's Miracles, the miracle you have when you don't have a miracle. Nothing significant ever comes back, just worthless ambiguous crap. Why does our entire history only gives us these Clayton's miracles? Why don't we see something that makes everyone, even skeptics go, WOW! hat's impressive, no idea how that could happen naturally, but there is always some mundane explanation, whether it is accepted or not. The way I see things, if there is a viable simple explanation, it should take precedence over any exotic explanation every time.

"May well have"? Do you realize how many lobby vents would have to be connected to hospital rooms? Its only "worthless ambiguous crap" because you were not there, and it was not your family member telling you about the conversation you were having in the lobby when they were in a coma! Its very significant. The problem is that we are dealing with human experiences here. It necessarily has to be filtered by humans, but we have marginalized individual experiences even if they can be corroborated. I can come up with claytons miracles to describe entanglement, the photoelectric effect, or why the Josephson's junction works as well that doesn't speak an iota to truth. An imagination can be used to create "mundane" explanations as well as what you call "exotic" ones. After all the sky is blue because it is reflecting the ocean right? Its perfectly reasonable to assume so.


Quote

How PreColumbian? By definition, that's anything before 1492 isn't it?

As far as I can see, they did invent the afterlife, what earlier specifics exist in written form? Or what evidence supports that? I do not call an OBE an afterlife, I mean when you die you take on a new form, that's what afterlife is isn't it? I Think OBE's are a combination of sleep paralysis and or drugs.

And Norse Mythology began at about 1AD didn't it? That does not predate the Egyptian book of the dead.

From what I can see, the further back you go, the more vague the details be, all we did was sharpen up the idea as we went along.
Before the Europeans arrived, native American's already had well developed spiritualties that include a spirit world, an afterlife, and many other typically spiritual concepts. Just take a native American studies course at your local JC if you want to learn more. Or maybe an religion in anthropology course. I assure you the Egyptians did not create the concept of the after life. Hell even graves of Neanderthals' show evidence that someone left things in their graves for them to use. You may not call on OBE afterlife, but an NDE certainly is an OBE, and at least appears to the person that their consciousness is separate from their bodies. You kinda get that feeling when you see your body laying there. The point wasn't that the nords influenced the native American's and their spirituality, the point was that they did not. There was no recorded contact between Ancient Egyptians and Ancient NA. Plenty of archeological evidence that NA had a deeply spiritual component to their grave sites. Im not sure why you are holding on to this idea about the Egyptians...Maybe. And a big maybe they influenced culture in that part of the world. Not in the Americas before technology could cross the ocean. Certainly not in isolated Polynesian spiritualties.


Quote

I guess it was a silly question, because it has no answer does it?

We know how and why we got here physically, evolution has left a fossil record to follow. One wonders if cavemen are in the afterlife? But why would a spirit world exist? No reason. No big bang, no actual place to reside, nothing. We have a reason here and now, we are the conscious matter of the Universe, we are the Universe wondering about itself, we are organic, we know how we come to be, we know how we die, but we have no reason for an afterlife other than it would be really cool.
What I understand is that it's a place like that which has never existed, and where our spirit energies go to when we die, problem is, I do not believe we have a spirit energy, I think a person makes their own spirit, and it defines who we are, not what we are made of, and I believe it dies as part of us. It's our persona, that individualism, the mind. Not another ghost me in a physical me. Why would that be wrong? It is not like I do not understand what people are trying to tell me, it is not because I do not want it to exist, I do more than anything, but I am honest with myself. The only way I can see for one to accept that a spirit world actually exists is to convince oneself is it not?
No we don't!!!!!!!!!!!! We have a body of knowledge that takes us back. We don't know why or how life started!!! If you were a hypothetical "nonliving" scientist that had never encountered life before, with todays understanding of science, you could not predict life. Fossil records and evolution answer part of the how... Not the why. Another kind of dimension would exist, because after many years of science we are started to understand and LOGICALLY deduce that their probably is many other dimensions and even other types of realities, there are even proposed ways to test this empirically, but may have to wait for technology to improve. Something that mystics have been aware of for many years before science started to catch up. You only assume that consciousness is a product of matter without understanding how fully integrated nature could be.  Yes..there are many differences in perceptions of such places...but then again their may be many kinds of places. The Big bang was not a bang by the way...current speculation is that it was an intrusion of another dimension, or a mass quantum fluctuation possibly caused by an extremely rare tunneling event. Hmmmm What do you know? We don't know why these things would exist either? You should read "The way of the peaceful Warrior" and Carl Jung's "the undiscovered Self" and remember the terms "foolish jackass" and "Marginalization of the individual."

Yes we are the universe wondering about itself....I agree. But no we do not know why or ultimately even how we came to be.

Its not that your point of view is wrong...its that ultimately it doesn't take into account all the evidence, and more logical leaps need to be made to support a physicalist interpretation.

Quote

What do you feel I am missing? From my perspective, all I seem to be missing is willingness to believe blindly?
Its not what you are missing.....Its what everyone is missing. You cannot draw those lines logically. You do not understand how deep ultimate reality goes or how or why fundamental reality manifests this one, nor do I. After speaking with me do you believe I believe blindly? If you do, then research all the NDE threads on this forum, read through my arguments and ask yourself if I have blind faith in this matter? This is of course a part of the physicalist bias in general. A blind unwillingness to look at real evidences simply because of a world view. I am perfectly willing to consider the dyeing brain hypothesis, but ultimately it does not hold up to scrutiny, and is permeated by scienceism and physcalist bias.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#122    White Crane Feather

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Posted 03 December 2013 - 06:30 PM

View Postpsyche101, on 03 December 2013 - 08:19 AM, said:

Thanks for the video, that is a good effort.

You know how you say, don't sleep on your back, get plenty of rest, and live a healthy lifestyle.

I get hardly any sleep, always sleep on my back, and eat Junk Food a few times a week at least.

I do not dream, not at all. I wish I did, and I used to as a child, I have not since I was about 17 or 18. I'm in my mid 40's now. Any thoughts on that? I would be genuinely interested to hear them.
I guarantee you dream every single night. You just cant remember them, this is an awareness issue...or maybe you simply sleep well. I wish I could not dream sometimes. Im the other way around. I remember all of them. Only about 40% of people ever have an SP event. if you would like to have an OBE to see for yourself what the commotion is all about, id be happy to help you try. No drugs.... I promise. Just some early mornings and a little meditation.


Quote

You know how at the start you say it is different, sometimes it is like another being walking through it, you remind me of the last days of my Father, and the experiences I described earlier, some of those sure sound like an NDE experience, he even claimed to have seen angels a few days before he passed, yet it was surely the product of a brain going out of commission, and recalling many life events....

which reminds me. He had a serious heart operation over 20 years ago, one of the first recipients for a new valve here, when he woke, at first he was entirely lost, he had missed about 30 years of his life, and thought he was a young man back in NSW, he had no idea who I was, it took several hours for him to "come back" to the present day, a bit wierd, but an interesting experience, and I have heard of this more than once. This shows the brain goes back to earlier memories when serious trauma happens, how does that sort of thing not indicate this is all in the brain, and not some sort of spirit world?
That is a very large leap to assume saying its "all in the brain". The brain is certainly a major part of what is happening...but so is your television when you watch a movie :)

I think you would be very interested in this study. http://www.horizonre...PDF_article.pdf

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#123    White Crane Feather

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Posted 03 December 2013 - 06:33 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 03 December 2013 - 08:25 AM, said:

What ever happened to the secret things that were stored near the ceiling out of sight from the operating floors that were to be a test to see if anyone ever identified what they were after such an out of body experience?

Its part of the Aware Study. They will not release the results until they have completed the extensive study. But I if you look under publications you can find some interesting study's associated with the subject.

http://www.horizonre...s.php?cat_id=13

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#124    spartan max2

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Posted 03 December 2013 - 06:55 PM

View Postpsyche101, on 03 December 2013 - 08:19 AM, said:



I do not dream, not at all. I wish I did, and I used to as a child, I have not since I was about 17 or 18. I'm in my mid 40's now. Any thoughts on that? I would be genuinely interested to hear them.



You can try what I did to get myself to dream. I was talking to someone one time and they said that their psychology professor told them if you repeat to yourself three times before you go to sleep " I will remember my dream". Then when you wake up you will remember your dreams.

It sounds kind of dumb but hey it worked for me. Worked the first night and I continued for a week or two and started remembering like 3 dreams a night, and then I stopped and now I just remember most of my dreams as second nature.

" I imagine that the intellegent people are the ones so intellegent that they dont even need or want to look "intellegent" anymore".
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#125    psyche101

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Posted 06 December 2013 - 04:01 AM

View PostWhite Crane Feather, on 03 December 2013 - 06:18 PM, said:

"May well have"? Do you realize how many lobby vents would have to be connected to hospital rooms? Its only "worthless ambiguous crap" because you were not there, and it was not your family member telling you about the conversation you were having in the lobby when they were in a coma! Its very significant. The problem is that we are dealing with human experiences here. It necessarily has to be filtered by humans, but we have marginalized individual experiences even if they can be corroborated. I can come up with claytons miracles to describe entanglement, the photoelectric effect, or why the Josephson's junction works as well that doesn't speak an iota to truth. An imagination can be used to create "mundane" explanations as well as what you call "exotic" ones. After all the sky is blue because it is reflecting the ocean right? Its perfectly reasonable to assume so.

I do not feel I marginalised anything, I see that all vents are connected, they end up at a central handling unit, which blows air in every direction, and could carry sound. I feel where a prosaic explanation can exist, it should take precedence. It strikes me that a physical thing we know can happen is more likely that something we do not understand or can adequately explain.

I could say to an extent I have witnessed such first hand, when my wife's mother was very near death due to an aneurysm that had burst during the night, we got a visit from Police as she lived quite some way away, and we had just finished building our house, and just moved into yet, and had no phones. We jumped in the car, and raced to the Hospital - about a 2 hour drive, only to find as we approached the town, only ten or so minutes from the Hospital, she passed, we missed her by minutes.
Now the people in the room with her when she went said the a dove had been sitting on her window all morning. And as we hit the town outskirts, they say somehow the dove let her know this, so she let go, and as she took her last breath the dove flew off.
Personally, I think that it was more likely a Pigeon, as many of them frequent the hospital in hope of scarps, and that more likely, something like sunlight was more the reason the bird sat there for a certain amount of time, however, the family members thought some spiritual rubbish was going on, when all I could see was a roomful of people looking for any coincidence they could to deal with the grief, and accept while gone, she was still in existence. Of course I did not say Boo, I am not about interfering with how people deal with a situation, but it was clearly as I described above, "worthless ambiguous crap" that people had convinced themselves was so much more.

My sisters used to frequent the psychic fairs here too. That is just a gathering of charlatans, and people with personal problems. Nothing mystical there whatsoever. My little sister spent some time with the RAAF, and has grown out of her mystical outlook.

View PostWhite Crane Feather, on 03 December 2013 - 06:18 PM, said:

Before the Europeans arrived, native American's already had well developed spiritualties that include a spirit world, an afterlife, and many other typically spiritual concepts. Just take a native American studies course at your local JC if you want to learn more. Or maybe an religion in anthropology course. I assure you the Egyptians did not create the concept of the after life. Hell even graves of Neanderthals' show evidence that someone left things in their graves for them to use. You may not call on OBE afterlife, but an NDE certainly is an OBE, and at least appears to the person that their consciousness is separate from their bodies. You kinda get that feeling when you see your body laying there. The point wasn't that the nords influenced the native American's and their spirituality, the point was that they did not. There was no recorded contact between Ancient Egyptians and Ancient NA. Plenty of archeological evidence that NA had a deeply spiritual component to their grave sites. Im not sure why you are holding on to this idea about the Egyptians...Maybe. And a big maybe they influenced culture in that part of the world. Not in the Americas before technology could cross the ocean. Certainly not in isolated Polynesian spiritualties.

Whilst I feel you suggestion is a very good one, I do not have the time to take additional courses right now, I am an engineer with a high pressure job, and am already doing a course myself that will complete mid next year.

But if I could ask you to point me at any concise sources I would appreciate it. There is no writings from the times of the Neanderthal., and their cave art is well known so nothing can confirm they believed in an afterlife, being a different species, they may well have had an entirely different concept for death. It just seems to me that any literal interpretations from that time period would require some specific, and convincing evidence none of which I am aware exists.

I can see how an OBE could influence an afterlife ideal, but I do not feel they are connected more than that. Could I ask you to point at these extremely early examples that specifically note an afterlife? As I said, I feel the concept goes back to tales of Gilgamesh, but I think the Egyptians refined the Concept into an actual place that we can envisage, and made up the rite of passage. They gave us the guidelines and the rules, which only seems to be adapted to certain cultures.

How do you figure ancient culture managed to attain more knowledge than the modern world with regards to a subject like this? Remember, these are the guys that saw Lightning, and said, well, that's not something we do, must be a massive invincible man throwing those powerful explosive spears. Why would an afterlife be more accurate than that?


View PostWhite Crane Feather, on 03 December 2013 - 06:18 PM, said:

No we don't!!!!!!!!!!!! We have a body of knowledge that takes us back. We don't know why or how life started!!! If you were a hypothetical "nonliving" scientist that had never encountered life before, with todays understanding of science, you could not predict life. Fossil records and evolution answer part of the how... Not the why.

You are talking about the spark that initiated life, I am not, I am talking about the rise of man over the last 6 million or so years. We do know why we evolved, we do know how we evolved. We do not have a need for an afterlife to exist.

You hypothetical scientist is confusing, because in that scenario, nothing can be predicted as there is nothing to work with and never will be, we are not bound by any such restriction.


View PostWhite Crane Feather, on 03 December 2013 - 06:18 PM, said:

Another kind of dimension would exist, because after many years of science we are started to understand and LOGICALLY deduce that their probably is many other dimensions and even other types of realities, there are even proposed ways to test this empirically, but may have to wait for technology to improve.

They are not new worlds and new realms as in science fiction though, they are new directions, new ways we can move. And in the same place. String predicts more dimensions, but Science Fiction has put something of a weird spin on it, and I am not sure if people really grasp dimensions. I found the short series "The Elegant Universe" a very good introduction into dimensions.

View PostWhite Crane Feather, on 03 December 2013 - 06:18 PM, said:

Something that mystics have been aware of for many years before science started to catch up.

I am honestly not convinced that is the case. It seems to me that anyone who has been embellishing tales of the dead could easily shoehorn them into the dimensions predicted by string theory based on science fiction models of the physical realities.


View PostWhite Crane Feather, on 03 December 2013 - 06:18 PM, said:

You only assume that consciousness is a product of matter without understanding how fully integrated nature could be.  

Yes I am, I am hoping someone like you can help me fathom more, it is becoming quite apparent that you are not the average kook, and know your subject well, I appreciate that, but with the entire field relying so heavily on mysticism, it takes more than say so, and it seems that is all that is available.


View PostWhite Crane Feather, on 03 December 2013 - 06:18 PM, said:

Yes..there are many differences in perceptions of such places...but then again their may be many kinds of places. The Big bang was not a bang by the way...current speculation is that it was an intrusion of another dimension, or a mass quantum fluctuation possibly caused by an extremely rare tunneling event. Hmmmm What do you know? We don't know why these things would exist either? You should read "The way of the peaceful Warrior" and Carl Jung's "the undiscovered Self" and remember the terms "foolish jackass" and "Marginalization of the individual."

Perceptions: - I think that's where you hit the nail on the head.

Indeed, and another claims says the Universe crystallised into Ice to from the beginning. There are many, but the big bang theory os the best supported still. LINK - Big Bang Was Actually a Phase Change, New Theory Says

Yet how could the Universe being born from another dimension have anything to do with an afterlife? We are still the end product of this dimension.

View PostWhite Crane Feather, on 03 December 2013 - 06:18 PM, said:

Yes we are the universe wondering about itself....I agree. But no we do not know why or ultimately even how we came to be.

Indeed, but we are part of that which we see, and all other matter in the Universe is recycled, why would our intelligence be special enough to do more than the rest of the Universe?

View PostWhite Crane Feather, on 03 December 2013 - 06:18 PM, said:

Its not that your point of view is wrong...its that ultimately it doesn't take into account all the evidence, and more logical leaps need to be made to support a physicalist interpretation.

I am not good with leaps of faith, I admit. But is not all the evidence regarding an afterlife faith based?

View PostWhite Crane Feather, on 03 December 2013 - 06:18 PM, said:

Its not what you are missing.....Its what everyone is missing. You cannot draw those lines logically. You do not understand how deep ultimate reality goes or how or why fundamental reality manifests this one, nor do I. After speaking with me do you believe I believe blindly? If you do, then research all the NDE threads on this forum, read through my arguments and ask yourself if I have blind faith in this matter? This is of course a part of the physicalist bias in general. A blind unwillingness to look at real evidences simply because of a world view. I am perfectly willing to consider the dyeing brain hypothesis, but ultimately it does not hold up to scrutiny, and is permeated by scienceism and physcalist bias.

But why can we draw logical conclusions that lead to a clinical death?
After speaking with you, I have to admit, my respect for you has grown immensely, which normally does not happen with people who support fringe ideals, you are a cut above the average bear, I'll give you that for sure. But I still feel your evidence requires a giant leap of faith, I am bewildered by what you might consider "solid" evidence for an afterlife, but find I can resolve that which the OP presents quite likely and logical.
So you do feel it is quite possible that we do just die as well as possible we might not?

Edited by psyche101, 06 December 2013 - 04:06 AM.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo 'If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants.' - Sir Isaac Newton. "Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit." Ed Stewart. Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs. Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Sir Wearer of Hats.


#126    psyche101

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Posted 06 December 2013 - 05:21 AM

View PostWhite Crane Feather, on 03 December 2013 - 06:30 PM, said:

I guarantee you dream every single night. You just cant remember them, this is an awareness issue...or maybe you simply sleep well. I wish I could not dream sometimes. Im the other way around. I remember all of them. Only about 40% of people ever have an SP event. if you would like to have an OBE to see for yourself what the commotion is all about, id be happy to help you try. No drugs.... I promise. Just some early mornings and a little meditation.

But for 25 years + straight?

I have many early mornings, but usually long days, I would like to try what works for others to experience it for myself, as with many other so called metaphysical experiences, I find they tend to let me down as one has to do all the work, including imagine that what is happening to them is special. I do not mean that in a derogatory way, but people make certain interpretations that seem very much personal to me, and from an outside perspective do not seem mystical at all, to see something like that for myself, and be convinced it is more than mundane would be quite an amazing thing for me.

View PostWhite Crane Feather, on 03 December 2013 - 06:30 PM, said:

That is a very large leap to assume saying its "all in the brain". The brain is certainly a major part of what is happening...but so is your television when you watch a movie :)

I think you would be very interested in this study. http://www.horizonre...PDF_article.pdf

But a movie does not sit in the TV, when the brain starts to falter as with Dementia or Alzheimers. or even great shock like a very serious operation, very often, regressive memory is one of the first and most apparent effects, as I said, my father lost decades in one operation that slowly came back over the period of 24 hours, I do not see how that much is not in the brain, but similar life flashing events are regularly recoded in NDE's. The movie is always in the brain, unlike the TV.

Considering that surgery trauma results in this, how is so different from that described in an NDE?

Thank you for the link, that is exactly the sort of thing I am looking for, I will let you know how I go with it.

Edited by psyche101, 06 December 2013 - 05:22 AM.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo 'If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants.' - Sir Isaac Newton. "Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit." Ed Stewart. Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs. Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Sir Wearer of Hats.


#127    psyche101

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Posted 06 December 2013 - 05:23 AM

View Postspartan max2, on 03 December 2013 - 06:55 PM, said:

You can try what I did to get myself to dream. I was talking to someone one time and they said that their psychology professor told them if you repeat to yourself three times before you go to sleep " I will remember my dream". Then when you wake up you will remember your dreams.

It sounds kind of dumb but hey it worked for me. Worked the first night and I continued for a week or two and started remembering like 3 dreams a night, and then I stopped and now I just remember most of my dreams as second nature.

Hey whatever works right?

I'll give it a try over the weekend, I'll let you know if I had any success.

I do miss dreaming, I remember having vivid dreams of flying as a small child, they were fantastic and very real to me.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo 'If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants.' - Sir Isaac Newton. "Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit." Ed Stewart. Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs. Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Sir Wearer of Hats.


#128    Frank Merton

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Posted 06 December 2013 - 05:35 AM

Dreaming is not like watching movies.  You do not watch the dream, you live it.


#129    White Crane Feather

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Posted 06 December 2013 - 06:28 PM

View Postpsyche101, on 06 December 2013 - 04:01 AM, said:

I do not feel I marginalised anything, I see that all vents are connected, they end up at a central handling unit, which blows air in every direction, and could carry sound. I feel where a prosaic explanation can exist, it should take precedence. It strikes me that a physical thing we know can happen is more likely that something we do not understand or can adequately explain.

Quote


I would agree in many instances, but when it comes to NDEs prosaic explanations have been explored, and simply do not hold up to scrutiny. Its also not very scientific for scientists simply to offer likely hoods based on their own beliefs on the matter. That is what psudoskeptics do. For example, many skeptics right here on these forums offer up all kinds of prosaic explanations for NDEs without really knowing what they are talking about. Ill give an example. Over and over I again, I hear that NDEs are probably just the brain interpreting randnom signals. Not only is it not true its not possible. Extensive medical research has been put into studying the brain and what actually happens to people in during cardiac arrest. From animal testing to death bed studies, doctors know a hell of a lot about brain function and how it relates to blood pressure, brain waves etc etc, They also know a hell of a lot about the brain and what parts of it are involved in any kind of cognitive thought or even just smelling coffee. As it turns out cognition is a global phenomenon requiring different parts of the brain to communicated in a very synchronized fashion especially to create long term memories, or even to have the experience of interaction with another having any kind of coherent experience involving cultural influence or an attempt to "comfort ones self". We know for a FACT that these areas of the brain become completely non functional upon blood pressure dropping to certain very accurately defined levels and the brain reacts within seconds.

During cardiac arrest, even chest compression and drugs are not sufficient to provide the necessary blood pressure for the brain to have any coherent experiences. Then there is a recovery phase if someone is revived which is erroneously represented like sleeping when infact there is a complicated cellular, nuro chemical, and electrical process happening. All of which totally eliminates and completely does not fit the profile of a brain even capable of forming memories, much less a hyper vivid journey. This effectively rules out experiences right before arrest, during, and after, yet people can recall exact sentences, processes, even who is present. All verified by doctors. Nor does a dying brain even remotely fit the profile of a brain hallucinating. It simply is not possible according to massive amounts of medical research. Like I said. Doctors are very smart. They know what the brain looks like  what it needs to have cognitive function. Ever iota of measurable data from animals and humans alike have been studied. Part of the criteria researchers us to determine if an NDE is and NDE is if there appears to have been cognitive function when there should not be.


Quote

I could say to an extent I have witnessed such first hand, when my wife's mother was very near death due to an aneurysm that had burst during the night, we got a visit from Police as she lived quite some way away, and we had just finished building our house, and just moved into yet, and had no phones. We jumped in the car, and raced to the Hospital - about a 2 hour drive, only to find as we approached the town, only ten or so minutes from the Hospital, she passed, we missed her by minutes.
Now the people in the room with her when she went said the a dove had been sitting on her window all morning. And as we hit the town outskirts, they say somehow the dove let her know this, so she let go, and as she took her last breath the dove flew off.
Personally, I think that it was more likely a Pigeon, as many of them frequent the hospital in hope of scarps, and that more likely, something like sunlight was more the reason the bird sat there for a certain amount of time, however, the family members thought some spiritual rubbish was going on, when all I could see was a roomful of people looking for any coincidence they could to deal with the grief, and accept while gone, she was still in existence. Of course I did not say Boo, I am not about interfering with how people deal with a situation, but it was clearly as I described above, "worthless ambiguous crap" that people had convinced themselves was so much more.

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I don't know where you get "worthless....or Crap" it may have been ambiguous but it obviously wasn't worthless to someone. I see how you are using as an example of peoples tendency to find meaning where there may be none, but you are making your self guilty of assuming the conclusion first. If there is sort of spiritual meaning or realm guiding synchronistic events here in the physical, then how do you know those circumstances were not placed there to do exactly what it did...provide meaning for someone that needed comfort? Im not saying that's the case, but In a reality with a spiritual base everything may have meaning.

Quote


My sisters used to frequent the psychic fairs here too. That is just a gathering of charlatans, and people with personal problems. Nothing mystical there whatsoever. My little sister spent some time with the RAAF, and has grown out of her mystical outlook.

Quote

Yes...well there are bad mechanics, and quack doctors to, that doesn't mean that there are not real mechanics or doctors.


Quote


Whilst I feel you suggestion is a very good one, I do not have the time to take additional courses right now, I am an engineer with a high pressure job, and am already doing a course myself that will complete mid next year.


But if I could ask you to point me at any concise sources I would appreciate it. There is no writings from the times of the Neanderthal., and their cave art is well known so nothing can confirm they believed in an afterlife, being a different species, they may well have had an entirely different concept for death. It just seems to me that any literal interpretations from that time period would require some specific, and convincing evidence none of which I am aware exists.

Quote

http://en.wikipedia....lithic_religion

I assure you native American spiritualties were not influenced by Egyptian philosophy. At least until the world become more connected. We have a plethora of information from grave sites, and tradition. The spirit world and original spiritualties are not just trying to explain things in an unsophisticated way. Sure that happens. Myths come about and evolve, but OBEs and ecstatic states are the core beginning of our concept of any of it, and why wouldn't it? Is obvious the human mind have the capacity to have OBEs and has since probably before we evolved into modern humans. Most anthropologists understand this. Shamanic concepts are the original spirituality.  

Quote


I can see how an OBE could influence an afterlife ideal, but I do not feel they are connected more than that. Could I ask you to point at these extremely early examples that specifically note an afterlife? As I said, I feel the concept goes back to tales of Gilgamesh, but I think the Egyptians refined the Concept into an actual place that we can envisage, and made up the rite of passage. They gave us the guidelines and the rules, which only seems to be adapted to certain cultures.

Quote


Again Native Americans were isolated from those cultures. The spirit world and life after death us a universal human concept.
http://www.native-la...-afterworld.htm



How do you figure ancient culture managed to attain more knowledge than the modern world with regards to a subject like this? Remember, these are the guys that saw Lightning, and said, well, that's not something we do, must be a massive invincible man throwing those powerful explosive spears. Why would an afterlife be more accurate than that?




You are talking about the spark that initiated life, I am not, I am talking about the rise of man over the last 6 million or so years. We do know why we evolved, we do know how we evolved. We do not have a need for an afterlife to exist.

You hypothetical scientist is confusing, because in that scenario, nothing can be predicted as there is nothing to work with and never will be, we are not bound by any such restriction.




They are not new worlds and new realms as in science fiction though, they are new directions, new ways we can move. And in the same place. String predicts more dimensions, but Science Fiction has put something of a weird spin on it, and I am not sure if people really grasp dimensions. I found the short series "The Elegant Universe" a very good introduction into dimensions.



I am honestly not convinced that is the case. It seems to me that anyone who has been embellishing tales of the dead could easily shoehorn them into the dimensions predicted by string theory based on science fiction models of the physical realities.




Yes I am, I am hoping someone like you can help me fathom more, it is becoming quite apparent that you are not the average kook, and know your subject well, I appreciate that, but with the entire field relying so heavily on mysticism, it takes more than say so, and it seems that is all that is available.




Perceptions: - I think that's where you hit the nail on the head.

Indeed, and another claims says the Universe crystallised into Ice to from the beginning. There are many, but the big bang theory os the best supported still. LINK - Big Bang Was Actually a Phase Change, New Theory Says

Yet how could the Universe being born from another dimension have anything to do with an afterlife? We are still the end product of this dimension.



Indeed, but we are part of that which we see, and all other matter in the Universe is recycled, why would our intelligence be special enough to do more than the rest of the Universe?



I am not good with leaps of faith, I admit. But is not all the evidence regarding an afterlife faith based?



But why can we draw logical conclusions that lead to a clinical death?
After speaking with you, I have to admit, my respect for you has grown immensely, which normally does not happen with people who support fringe ideals, you are a cut above the average bear, I'll give you that for sure. But I still feel your evidence requires a giant leap of faith, I am bewildered by what you might consider "solid" evidence for an afterlife, but find I can resolve that which the OP presents quite likely and logical.
So you do feel it is quite possible that we do just die as well as possible we might not?
Bear with me I just lost a tone of crap I types. so that it dosnt happen again, im going to be posting and adding more as I go. sheeeshhhh I want to kill this compute. Its funny that my iphone works better.

Edited by White Crane Feather, 06 December 2013 - 07:21 PM.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#130    White Crane Feather

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Posted 06 December 2013 - 08:16 PM

View PostWhite Crane Feather, on 06 December 2013 - 06:28 PM, said:

I could say to an extent I have witnessed such first hand, when my wife's mother was very near death due to an aneurysm that had burst during the night, we got a visit from Police as she lived quite some way away, and we had just finished building our house, and just moved into yet, and had no phones. We jumped in the car, and raced to the Hospital - about a 2 hour drive, only to find as we approached the town, only ten or so minutes from the Hospital, she passed, we missed her by minutes.
Now the people in the room with her when she went said the a dove had been sitting on her window all morning. And as we hit the town outskirts, they say somehow the dove let her know this, so she let go, and as she took her last breath the dove flew off.
Personally, I think that it was more likely a Pigeon, as many of them frequent the hospital in hope of scarps, and that more likely, something like sunlight was more the reason the bird sat there for a certain amount of time, however, the family members thought some spiritual rubbish was going on, when all I could see was a roomful of people looking for any coincidence they could to deal with the grief, and accept while gone, she was still in existence. Of course I did not say Boo, I am not about interfering with how people deal with a situation, but it was clearly as I described above, "worthless ambiguous crap" that people had convinced themselves was so much more.

I don't know where you get "worthless....or Crap" it may have been ambiguous but it obviously wasn't worthless to someone. I see how you are using as an example of peoples tendency to find meaning where there may be none, but you are making your self guilty of assuming the conclusion first. If there is sort of spiritual meaning or realm guiding synchronistic events here in the physical, then how do you know those circumstances were not placed there to do exactly what it did...provide meaning for someone that needed comfort? Im not saying that's the case, but In a reality with a spiritual base everything may have meaning.


Quote


My sisters used to frequent the psychic fairs here too. That is just a gathering of charlatans, and people with personal problems. Nothing mystical there whatsoever. My little sister spent some time with the RAAF, and has grown out of her mystical outlook.

Yes...well there are bad mechanics, and quack doctors to, that doesn't mean that there are not real mechanics or doctors.




Quote


Whilst I feel you suggestion is a very good one, I do not have the time to take additional courses right now, I am an engineer with a high pressure job, and am already doing a course myself that will complete mid next year.


But if I could ask you to point me at any concise sources I would appreciate it. There is no writings from the times of the Neanderthal., and their cave art is well known so nothing can confirm they believed in an afterlife, being a different species, they may well have had an entirely different concept for death. It just seems to me that any literal interpretations from that time period would require some specific, and convincing evidence none of which I am aware exists.



http://en.wikipedia....lithic_religion

I assure you native American spiritualties were not influenced by Egyptian philosophy. At least until the world become more connected. We have a plethora of information from grave sites, and tradition. The spirit world and original spiritualties are not just trying to explain things in an unsophisticated way. Sure that happens. Myths come about and evolve, but OBEs and ecstatic states are the core beginning of our concept of any of it, and why wouldn't it? Is obvious the human mind have the capacity to have OBEs and has since probably before we evolved into modern humans. Most anthropologists understand this. Shamanic concepts are the original spirituality.  



Quote


I can see how an OBE could influence an afterlife ideal, but I do not feel they are connected more than that. Could I ask you to point at these extremely early examples that specifically note an afterlife? As I said, I feel the concept goes back to tales of Gilgamesh, but I think the Egyptians refined the Concept into an actual place that we can envisage, and made up the rite of passage. They gave us the guidelines and the rules, which only seems to be adapted to certain cultures.


Again Native Americans were isolated from those cultures. The spirit world and life after death us a universal human concept.
http://www.native-la...-afterworld.htm


Quote


How do you figure ancient culture managed to attain more knowledge than the modern world with regards to a subject like this? Remember, these are the guys that saw Lightning, and said, well, that's not something we do, must be a massive invincible man throwing those powerful explosive spears. Why would an afterlife be more accurate than that?


This is a good question, and it has an easy answer. They didn't. I don't buy that shaman a long time ago knew more than we do today. I personally don't think old concepts are any better than new ones. During times and places where someone like a shaman has a cultural context there are simply going to be more of them. Living close to nature brings spirituality out in many people. Many of us are certainly removed from that. Also during the enlightenment or even the rise or roman empire...traditional beliefs were frowned upon...even assaulted. They still are. Look what happened to the native Americans. Shamanic peoples have undergone attempts at cultural eraser from both secular and religious sources. You should watch the large set of interviews about sleep paralysis. The professor there makes a very strong point that certain things that people were originally very open about have been practically, erased, controlled and even literally demonized. There are people on this very forum that consider me a minion of the devil himself, and I'm barely even allowed to have a mature candid discussion about something like   It appears as if ancient peoples knew more about these things...simply because it was accepted. Now...people like me are in hiding. No you wont catch me a psyche fair. :)

Quote


You are talking about the spark that initiated life, I am not, I am talking about the rise of man over the last 6 million or so years. We do know why we evolved, we do know how we evolved. We do not have a need for an afterlife to exist.

It dosnt matter if we have a need for one or not. That would be irrelevant of whether there is one or not.

Quote


You hypothetical scientist is confusing, because in that scenario, nothing can be predicted as there is nothing to work with and never will be, we are not bound by any such restriction.


Im simply pointing out that we don't have clue how life started, so its silly to suggest that we know why when ultimately we don't even know how?


Quote


They are not new worlds and new realms as in science fiction though, they are new directions, new ways we can move. And in the same place. String predicts more dimensions, but Science Fiction has put something of a weird spin on it, and I am not sure if people really grasp dimensions. I found the short series "The Elegant Universe" a very good introduction into dimensions.

Yes I have read it several times. M-brane theory has plenty of room for other places, the "Cosmic Landscape" has more than enough room and likelihood of even different kinds of places. Even curled up dimensions open up the possibility that we are really only plank's distance away from everything in the universe, so in a sense we are all still one in most of our special dimensions. That's not even discussing the mysterious realm of non physical information that gives rise to the rules of the physical. This place brings virtual particles into being and contains the rules for quantum fields.



Quote


I am honestly not convinced that is the case. It seems to me that anyone who has been embellishing tales of the dead could easily shoehorn them into the dimensions predicted by string theory based on science fiction models of the physical realities.

maybe.....but It could just as easy be the other way around. I find it quit an unlikely coincidence that mystics have been saying for most of human history that there are many other exotic places...then after much scientific inquiry we are starting to come to that very conclusion. Are we so pompus not to consider the likely hood that there may be other kinds of emergent intelligences buried deep within the structure of our universe? Don't say there is no evidence for them. NDEs and what we are discussing is evidence as well as the personal interaction of millions upon millions of people throughout history. Myself included.


Quote


Yes I am, I am hoping someone like you can help me fathom more, it is becoming quite apparent that you are not the average kook, and know your subject well, I appreciate that, but with the entire field relying so heavily on mysticism, it takes more than say so, and it seems that is all that is available.


Its perfectly practical the think that. Human truths are built on consensus. The only way to see where someone like me is coming from is to see for yourself. There simply is no other way. Other than that, you can take a hard look at all the evidences and arguments. A detailed unbiased look with a blank mind. The evidence is there. I cant show you how to bring back a spirit rock from the spirit world anymore than I can produce a graviton, but you can certainly walk the walk yourself.




Quote


Perceptions: - I think that's where you hit the nail on the head.

Indeed, and another claims says the Universe crystallised into Ice to from the beginning. There are many, but the big bang theory os the best supported still. LINK - Big Bang Was Actually a Phase Change, New Theory Says

Yet how could the Universe being born from another dimension have anything to do with an afterlife? We are still the end product of this dimension.


You were asking where the afterlife is....I was just giving a possibility. If this is a spiritual universe, then physical reality emanates from it. Maybe in the form of a mass tunneling event.


Quote


Indeed, but we are part of that which we see, and all other matter in the Universe is recycled, why would our intelligence be special enough to do more than the rest of the Universe?

because consciousness would be the final stop for any evolving system...and everything has been evolving for a very long time.

Quote


I am not good with leaps of faith, I admit. But is not all the evidence regarding an afterlife faith based?

absolutely not. Just look at NDEs none of it is faith based. It is experiential and material in that we have a very strong clue that consciousness is no limited to our bodies.

Quote


But why can we draw logical conclusions that lead to a clinical death?
After speaking with you, I have to admit, my respect for you has grown immensely, which normally does not happen with people who support fringe ideals, you are a cut above the average bear, I'll give you that for sure. But I still feel your evidence requires a giant leap of faith, I am bewildered by what you might consider "solid" evidence for an afterlife, but find I can resolve that which the OP presents quite likely and logical.
So you do feel it is quite possible that we do just die as well as possible we might not?

hahaha thanks for that, but I assure you, if you knew the things I have seen and experienced, you would probably think im a much bigger Kook than you have ever met.

I follow my nose. If the evidence takes me there..then so be it. But I must take into account personal experiences as well. The body of knowledge and experience points to a pretty specific conclusion.
Bear with me I just lost a tone of crap I typed. so read both attempts and see if you can see if you can put that jumbled mess together. Im out of energy


this quoting stuff is a nightmare for me. I can only respond to one thing at a time anymore. gggg!!

Edited by White Crane Feather, 06 December 2013 - 08:35 PM.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#131    White Crane Feather

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Posted 06 December 2013 - 08:30 PM

View Postpsyche101, on 06 December 2013 - 05:21 AM, said:

But for 25 years + straight?

I have many early mornings, but usually long days, I would like to try what works for others to experience it for myself, as with many other so called metaphysical experiences, I find they tend to let me down as one has to do all the work, including imagine that what is happening to them is special. I do not mean that in a derogatory way, but people make certain interpretations that seem very much personal to me, and from an outside perspective do not seem mystical at all, to see something like that for myself, and be convinced it is more than mundane would be quite an amazing thing for me.



But a movie does not sit in the TV, when the brain starts to falter as with Dementia or Alzheimers. or even great shock like a very serious operation, very often, regressive memory is one of the first and most apparent effects, as I said, my father lost decades in one operation that slowly came back over the period of 24 hours, I do not see how that much is not in the brain, but similar life flashing events are regularly recoded in NDE's. The movie is always in the brain, unlike the TV.

Considering that surgery trauma results in this, how is so different from that described in an NDE?

Thank you for the link, that is exactly the sort of thing I am looking for, I will let you know how I go with it.

These publications are in academic journals
http://www.horizonre...s.php?cat_id=13

Creating an OBE and then experimenting with what you find out of body is a bit of an undertaking. If you go for it, ill help where I can.

Watch this video and if try join this discussion. http://www.unexplain...howtopic=219629




"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#132    docyabut2

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Posted 07 December 2013 - 12:10 AM

To  me dreams are just a extorted view of everything we think or worry about ,but what is real in what people experience in NDE `s.  For the person to view something in a operating room when there are no brain waves recorded is something to really look at.


#133    psyche101

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 08:22 AM

View PostWhite Crane Feather, on 06 December 2013 - 06:28 PM, said:

I don't know where you get "worthless....or Crap" it may have been ambiguous but it obviously wasn't worthless to someone. I see how you are using as an example of peoples tendency to find meaning where there may be none, but you are making your self guilty of assuming the conclusion first. If there is sort of spiritual meaning or realm guiding synchronistic events here in the physical, then how do you know those circumstances were not placed there to do exactly what it did...provide meaning for someone that needed comfort? Im not saying that's the case, but In a reality with a spiritual base everything may have meaning.

Hi WCF

Sorry for the delay in reply, I have read this three times now over a couple of days to let it sink in, as you are genuinely trying to help me understand something I do not, I figure the best I can do is do my level best to completely understand  that which you are portraying.

Yes, you have put it more mildly, but that is not what I am doing, you have described exactly what I am seeing, finding meaning where they may be none - please note that my prose will be blunt as I do work in construction, and have a colourful prose in a regular situation, which I try to curb in the presence of young people, ladies, or situations like this - a family forum. Now rather than may be none, what I see from a removed point is that there is none, some bird was on a window sill, and people leapt at the opportunity to burden this poor bird as the gateway to the afterlife. Seeing regular examples like this indicate to me that the human psyche fears death from birth, and negates the terrible ideal of simply shutting down.
And, I remember my grief when my father passed, and could see myself grasping at straws like that at the time. It hit me much harder than I ever expected.
These people cannot possibly know that a pigeon (which they felt was a Dove for a start) is some sort of guide to the afterworld, these people just would not have access to such knowledge, of they somehow did, they are not ones to keep secrets. They made up some stuff to make themselves feel better. Why does it not work like that all the time?


View PostWhite Crane Feather, on 06 December 2013 - 06:28 PM, said:

Yes...well there are bad mechanics, and quack doctors to, that doesn't mean that there are not real mechanics or doctors.

Indeed you are correct.

However, one can seek out a decent representative for the above, I do not know of a way to seek out someone who actually does posses any knowledge about after life. All I have ever seen is mature ladies with too much makeup and bald fat men with bandannas speaking total crap. I remember my mother going to see a Genuine Gypsy :D Gypsy Nick could tell your future! Read my palm too! I think he was reading my hand upside down or something though. My Life did not turn out as he predicted. This sort of think leaves people like me feeling cheated and jaded. He can't tell the future that damn liar!



View PostWhite Crane Feather, on 06 December 2013 - 06:28 PM, said:

http://en.wikipedia....lithic_religion

I assure you native American spiritualties were not influenced by Egyptian philosophy. At least until the world become more connected. We have a plethora of information from grave sites, and tradition. The spirit world and original spiritualties are not just trying to explain things in an unsophisticated way. Sure that happens. Myths come about and evolve, but OBEs and ecstatic states are the core beginning of our concept of any of it, and why wouldn't it? Is obvious the human mind have the capacity to have OBEs and has since probably before we evolved into modern humans. Most anthropologists understand this. Shamanic concepts are the original spirituality.  

Again Native Americans were isolated from those cultures. The spirit world and life after death us a universal human concept.
http://www.native-la...-afterworld.htm

I cannot believe I did not go to Wiki Myself first, I could kick myself sometimes!

Well we do all die I suppose!
OK, I see what you are saying here, but I am not convinced burial mean religion or afterlife, that surely began with simple compassion? Not wanting a loved one's body to be torn apart by predators? It might be unsettling to see your mothers head on a pathway on your way down to get some water for the tribe after a predator had torn it from the body and ate the soft tissue parts.
It also helps communicate grief. What do was say to our youngest as the elders drop off the perch? Granddad is still with us, he is in Heaven. That goes a long way.

Why is grief not the motivator here, why would it be a realm we certainly cannot qualify or so much as understand after all this time? And why would such knowledge even be prevalent with people who were just working out what shape the beast spear is?  How would they gain such an insight into that which nobody today can still prove?


View PostWhite Crane Feather, on 06 December 2013 - 06:28 PM, said:

This is a good question, and it has an easy answer. They didn't. I don't buy that shaman a long time ago knew more than we do today. I personally don't think old concepts are any better than new ones. During times and places where someone like a shaman has a cultural context there are simply going to be more of them. Living close to nature brings spirituality out in many people. Many of us are certainly removed from that. Also during the enlightenment or even the rise or roman empire...traditional beliefs were frowned upon...even assaulted. They still are. Look what happened to the native Americans. Shamanic peoples have undergone attempts at cultural eraser from both secular and religious sources. You should watch the large set of interviews about sleep paralysis. The professor there makes a very strong point that certain things that people were originally very open about have been practically, erased, controlled and even literally demonized. There are people on this very forum that consider me a minion of the devil himself, and I'm barely even allowed to have a mature candid discussion about something like   It appears as if ancient peoples knew more about these things...simply because it was accepted. Now...people like me are in hiding. No you wont catch me a psyche fair. :)


OK, they didn't works for me. It seems strange that after 40,000 years, or even 2,500, that we are still no closer to knowing anything, but the subject is hardly conventional I suppose.


Does living close to nature bring our spirituality or imagination? When people speak of being close to nature, I cannot help but think of the terribly misguided Timothy Treadwell, who felt he was close to nature, And he was too, he ended up part of it, in a Bears gut and poop. It strikes me more that nature inspires imagination and euphoria, and we see that as some insight, which can be even fatal.
I think we talk ourselves into a great many things to help us feel we understand things that we do not. I think sometimes humans could be more honest and just say, I dunno.
The sleep paralysis is interesting and at the same time confusing. I know studies into sleep paralysis show us that this is where an Alien Abductees aliens actually come from - the mind, as such, sleep paralysis studies seem to be opening doors held shut with the word Paranormal For so long. As such, I am not sure what he means by an open mind, surely he is not suggesting belief in everything from a Cyclops to a Fairy? Is that not a little too open minded? That is how nefarious people sell gullible people bridges isn't it? We accepted them because we knew no better, and had no understanding of the sciences, today we do, we know that lighting creates a vacuum in air which collapses after striking, and creates a loud thunder clap as the air rushes back together and meets, it never was a giant handsome man god with flowing long blond hair and a goatee with a really big hammer. From his suggestion, it seem he figures we should discard these facts, and go back to the Greek Gods?


I am pleased to hear you do not hang out at those fake fairs, but there are many people at them, and who follow them, they give the entire industry a bad name, and up the laugh scale, you would probably be about the only sane person I have met that can hold a discussion on the afterlife, and the alleged esoteric side of it. How can the industry have any validity when it is proliferated with charlatans, and the very few who do have a clue seem a let down after the grandiose promises made by the woo woo crowd. So many insist yeah, it's real, that ones hopes something tangible exists, not a jigsaw puzzle. However, do not get me wrong, I appreciate, and respect the effort you are going to, to help me find pieces that do fit together.

Golly gosh, you deamon you LOL.

View PostWhite Crane Feather, on 06 December 2013 - 06:28 PM, said:

It doesnt matter if we have a need for one or not. That would be irrelevant of whether there is one or not.

Maybe that is just how I think, everything has a place to be. Nothing just exists for the sake of existing, and if it exists, to me that means there must be something tangible. Seeking that tangible "thing" is more than frustrating.  More so when I have no idea what it is I am actually looking for.


View PostWhite Crane Feather, on 06 December 2013 - 06:28 PM, said:

Im simply pointing out that we don't have clue how life started, so its silly to suggest that we know why when ultimately we don't even know how?

However, we do know we a re made of "star stuff; and a product of this Universe, and the violence within. Again, we are a product of this Universe, but how can an afterlife be as well when it involves different physics?


View PostWhite Crane Feather, on 06 December 2013 - 06:28 PM, said:

Yes I have read it several times. M-brane theory has plenty of room for other places, the "Cosmic Landscape" has more than enough room and likelihood of even different kinds of places. Even curled up dimensions open up the possibility that we are really only plank's distance away from everything in the universe, so in a sense we are all still one in most of our special dimensions. That's not even discussing the mysterious realm of non physical information that gives rise to the rules of the physical. This place brings virtual particles into being and contains the rules for quantum fields.

But at a Quantum level, it is considered anything can happen? That's a pretty wide open door, plenty can go in and out of it. I can say pink elephants with purple wings exist in a quantum state, and be correct, nothing tends to happen twice at that level, so random can mean anything. It just seems an easy out to me, I'd like to see something we can put some facts behind.


View PostWhite Crane Feather, on 06 December 2013 - 06:28 PM, said:

maybe.....but It could just as easy be the other way around. I find it quit an unlikely coincidence that mystics have been saying for most of human history that there are many other exotic places...then after much scientific inquiry we are starting to come to that very conclusion. Are we so pompus not to consider the likely hood that there may be other kinds of emergent intelligences buried deep within the structure of our universe? Don't say there is no evidence for them. NDEs and what we are discussing is evidence as well as the personal interaction of millions upon millions of people throughout history. Myself included.

I honestly think we are adding 2 and 2 to make 5 here.
Co-incidence do happen too.

I expect a huge shift like with everything else in our history? We were wrong about lighting, thunder, even the rise of man, but time has ironed out all these wrinkles but not with the afterlife. As you point out, we know no more now than we ever did as a conscious species. String offering dimensional ideals to me seems more a convenient explanation. And it still tells us nothing.



View PostWhite Crane Feather, on 06 December 2013 - 06:28 PM, said:

Its perfectly practical the think that. Human truths are built on consensus. The only way to see where someone like me is coming from is to see for yourself. There simply is no other way. Other than that, you can take a hard look at all the evidences and arguments. A detailed unbiased look with a blank mind. The evidence is there. I cant show you how to bring back a spirit rock from the spirit world anymore than I can produce a graviton, but you can certainly walk the walk yourself.


I think that is what I wanted to hear, and the week after next, I will give your videos a good shot and see where they take me, I tried the sleep thing Max suggested, but no luck, still no recollection of dreaming, but I'll give anything a go, do not care if I look a fool I'd rather be able to say, Yeah, I tried that myself, and it works, or it does not work.

This is actually what I expected, one has to find the answers themselves, there is no answer to seek to confirm the afterlife, it is a personal journey. I just fear that my journey is not going to take me to places I have not been to before.





View PostWhite Crane Feather, on 06 December 2013 - 06:28 PM, said:

You were asking where the afterlife is....I was just giving a possibility. If this is a spiritual universe, then physical reality emanates from it. Maybe in the form of a mass tunneling event.


:tu: Cheers, and fair enough, I thought you meant it was a new accepted standard. My bad.




View PostWhite Crane Feather, on 06 December 2013 - 06:28 PM, said:

because consciousness would be the final stop for any evolving system...and everything has been evolving for a very long time.

Aha! Final stop you say! ;)

Crap, now I think I have confused myself.........

An end seems very natural to me? Most things come to an end and indeed many things are recycled, in a sense we do go on, but as atoms, in another hundred billion years, the supernova from our sun might create another system, and our elemnts may form part of that system. That is coming back, but not in a sense that can retain any information for a previous existance.



View PostWhite Crane Feather, on 06 December 2013 - 06:28 PM, said:

absolutely not. Just look at NDEs none of it is faith based. It is experiential and material in that we have a very strong clue that consciousness is no limited to our bodies.

Well see, that clue is what we are discussing that validity of, which again brings us back to a leap of faith does it not?


View PostWhite Crane Feather, on 06 December 2013 - 06:28 PM, said:

hahaha thanks for that, but I assure you, if you knew the things I have seen and experienced, you would probably think im a much bigger Kook than you have ever met.

Nah, you can even laugh at yourself, I like you more each time I speak to you. Because you have different inrtterpretation does not make you a kook, when you start telling me to repent because that will affect my entry to the after life - then we will get to kook OK :D

I do not like charlatans, and have been quite rude to people that I know outright lie here, you do not, you tell me what you honestly can resolve, I respect that. I do not consider you a charlatan, or dishonest in the slightest, yet you seem to be smack bang in the middle of a field rife with such charachters. For you to stand out is quite an accomplishment I think. And something I think you can very much be proud of.




View PostWhite Crane Feather, on 06 December 2013 - 06:28 PM, said:

I follow my nose. If the evidence takes me there..then so be it. But I must take into account personal experiences as well. The body of knowledge and experience points to a pretty specific conclusion.


I hope I can see that conclusion you found and be satisfied with it. My nose just led me to my Fathers grave. I guess I will never entirely resolve the grief, maybe the same with this quest, but I tried, and now I feel I have spoken to an honest person - finally - with some insight into the subject. Thanks for the  info on early religions too. I knew some of it, but there is always something new to learn.

View PostWhite Crane Feather, on 06 December 2013 - 06:28 PM, said:

Bear with me I just lost a tone of crap I typed. so read both attempts and see if you can see if you can put that jumbled mess together. Im out of energy
this quoting stuff is a nightmare for me. I can only respond to one thing at a time anymore. gggg!!

I hear you  :D

Thank you very much for your effort, I do appreciate them. I think that too illustrates that you are a good person, and one who cares about one's fellow man. And that a good effort coming from this rotten old cranky skeptic :lol:

Cheers.

Edited by psyche101, 11 December 2013 - 08:25 AM.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo 'If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants.' - Sir Isaac Newton. "Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit." Ed Stewart. Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs. Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Sir Wearer of Hats.


#134    psyche101

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 08:28 AM

View PostWhite Crane Feather, on 06 December 2013 - 08:30 PM, said:

These publications are in academic journals
http://www.horizonre...s.php?cat_id=13

Creating an OBE and then experimenting with what you find out of body is a bit of an undertaking. If you go for it, ill help where I can.

Watch this video and if try join this discussion. http://www.unexplain...howtopic=219629




Again thank you for the information, as soon as the holiday starts, I will give this an honest attempt. Had a look at the thread, again, thank you.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo 'If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants.' - Sir Isaac Newton. "Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit." Ed Stewart. Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs. Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Sir Wearer of Hats.


#135    The Great Gatsby

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 08:46 AM

How it works that way is a different question, than the why!





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