45 replies to this topic

[Leave Britney alone!]

dougeaton, on 05 January 2013 - 09:48 PM, said:

I know Mark, he is not talking about mental illness.  He believes that god (well God for him) sees into our most inner depths, his own words and sees truth/the poem also states that it is a state that the one ends up in  does not want to change, I believe that he is coming from a place different from most on this sight.  I often do not understand him either.

doug

Well it is art, it can be quite subjective and have a different meaning to each, I do like his words, the poem is beautifully written, It just strikes me wrong, can't help it, but I also doubt it was intentional which is why I began with "you can have good intentions but still offend others".

[SpiritWriter]

I believe you, on 05 January 2013 - 09:30 PM, said:

You can have good intentions but still offend others.

I agree with your statements regarding the author but don't find it an adequate defense and your own comments also seems a bit dismissive of HavocWing's concerns, whom I share.

I also think the author at times characterizes mental illness as something that could easily be overcome if one chooses, or if one turns to God, not true. The OP is about mental illness in my view, for many actually suffering in the dark it won't help them, but what do I know, maybe it is about Mark's own experiences, but the way it comes across is an attempt to put himself in another's shoes, which requires empathy and I find none here.

It is almost as if Mark is blaming those who suffer as simply turning away from God and hating good. I don't think it works like that.

I dont think it works like that on the whole but sometimes it does. He is speaking with christian mentality and vocabulary. There is nothing wrong with that. He is talking about the difference between having god and living in hell. As a believer this makes sense. If vocabulary needs to be scrutinized so harshly, we should try to look at the reasons why. Should christians begin to be careful how they word things? I have even come across threads where people are offended by the very word 'God' He has a different culture than you and is expressing his love for god through poetry.. I like it...

I do think we should aim to come together in love and understanding but at the same time not be restricted in our speech.  It is important for Mark to write his poetry, and also for you to have your comments and questions.

Thanks Mark... I always enjoy your pieces.

[Leave Britney alone!]

SpiritWriter, on 05 January 2013 - 10:53 PM, said:

I dont think it works like that on the whole but sometimes it does. He is speaking with christian mentality and vocabulary. There is nothing wrong with that. He is talking about the difference between having god and living in hell. As a believer this makes sense. If vocabulary needs to be scrutinized so harshly, we should try to look at the reasons why. Should christians begin to be careful how they word things? I have even come across threads where people are offended by the very word 'God' He has a different culture than you and is expressing his love for god through poetry.. I like it...

I do think we should aim to come together in love and understanding but at the same time not be restricted in our speech.  It is important for Mark to write his poetry, and also for you to have your comments and questions.

Thanks Mark... I always enjoy your pieces.

Keep in mind I am a Christian too. Just not the type to think we have the only answers and you will suffer if you choose another path. Too long have Christians had that mentality, I would rather treat believers from other faiths and non-believers as equals.

[markdohle]

A response to my post “I am a soul in hell”

I am sorry to have to take up this space to respond to my post about a soul in hell.  Not used to so much attention in the comment section.

My intent in using the poem was to deal with the question:  “can you enjoy paradise, if a loved one was in hell”.  It is a tough question, but misplaced I believe, though understandable.  I really enjoyed the responses and was surprised at some of them, touched actually by many of them, so thank you all.

Language is important, and as a Christian, whose faith is closer than his skin, and who seeks union with the Divine Will and infinite love, I will use language in a specific way, just as we all do.  So I understand misunderstanding, I do it all the time with others.

Human freedom is not a pleasant thought, if our lives, choices and our inner dispositions create us, either into gods, or devils (as Helen of Annoy understood so well….thank you Helen).  There is a place in the human heart that is free and chooses.  I also believe there are people who choose evil, and by that I don’t mean the mentally ill.  Mentally ill people do horrible things at times, but it is not a free choice, but based on a misunderstanding of reality.  Their choice causes the same turmoil and suffering in others, but it does not come from the place of inner freedom, that place that creates us.

For me the concept of ‘sin’ does not lead to neurotic guilt, but to true guilt, meaning I can change, that I can also seek forgiveness from others and God.  I am not a victim, in the way mentally ill people are.  People don’t like this word (sin), but for me it keeps me sane, grounded and responsible.  When I fail, and I do, I know I have ‘sinned’ and seek forgiveness from God and those I have hurt if possible.

A person in hell is not sent there.  Christ Jesus came to save us from ourselves, which I believe is something real.  I see into my heart and the struggle that is there to love, to not hate, to forgive and to not seek revenge…..it is a struggle for all of us.  It is a true death to self to seek a life of loving and growing towards inner healing.

Love rejected becomes a torture, which is hell.  It can begin here, and continue I believe after death.  I will not get into Christian thought here, but just trying to explain my reasons for posting the poem.  It was not directed at anyone, but a mediation on my self, what I can become if I do not continue to grow in love and in seeking truth.

I believe that my prayers are a connection everyone, so I pray for all and seek to love all….and fail.  If I choose to not love, which is not a failure, it becomes a central aspect of my personality and if I die and fling myself into isolation, in spite of God’s love and mercy, then I doubt having someone join me in that state would change anything…..well it might be good for me since someone would join me in my misery…..though isolation would preclude me knowing that.

Joy is real, love is real, hell is a small place for those who become closed in and can’t be reached at all.

Is anyone in hell…..I pray not…..I am not saying I understand in any deep way what hell is, just some thoughts.  When I read scriptures, I like to ponder on the stories and see how Jesus “saw”.  Those who allowed this “seeing, stipping” to happen were healed, those who did not, well I have no idea what happened to them.  Many after Jesus died became believers because of the reality of the resurrection, witnessed by many.

In the end, it is about love, it is about reaching out to others, to seeking out the lost, those in prison, the sick and the outcast…that is who Jesus sought.  I believe most of us fit into the above, and those who don’t, well they really do.  Is hell real, yes I believe it is, is anyone there, I hope not.  The Our Father is a prayer for all, it is universal.

If someone is in hell, I doubt that those in God’s presence will suffer because of that, for they know that it is a free choice.  In the end, there is little I understand.

I hope this did not confuse matters more and sorry for using this space to answer the comments.

Peace
mark

Edited by markdohle, 05 January 2013 - 11:11 PM.

[Arpee]

markdohle, on 05 January 2013 - 01:30 PM, said:

I am a soul in hell

In a place of cold unloving I reside,
my inner being delights in hate,
love is a flame that causes me pain,
so I prefer the dark and aloneness.

I hate all who are in the light,
detesting the happiness that they have,
wishing only that they join me
in my eternal rage turned within,
they being here
giving me something to batter,
to relieve this everlasting
building of inner hate.

How I wish to have the good to torture,
those pious fools who love God and light,
whose very presence blinds and suffocates my soul,
if only there was a deeper darkness to go.

I was not sent,
I flung myself here,
my true home my refuge,
from that light that beckons me
that I can’t abide in.
I regret nothing,
repentance is not for me,
my place is here
for eternity,

Care to join me?

"Darkness", "Aloneness" , "Light", "Love", "God"...

All concepts which can lead to an "Us vs. Them" mentality. You will be "here" for all eternity. I guess that is true since "Now" is always happening and  wherever you go it will always be "Here". If you are suffering, you are in hell no matter where you are.

[Beany]

dougeaton, on 05 January 2013 - 09:45 PM, said:

Re-read, it is a free choice, I would think what you are talking about may not apply, if there is a hell at all.  I don't believe in much freedom of choice myself.  If we are free, then hell is possible don't you think?

doug

I agree about free choice.  As if our choices are free of what? One's environment? One's experiences? One's IQ? One's maturity? One's genetics? One's culture? One's family history? One's education? One's ability to engage in critical thinking? Yeah, for me hell is a state of mind, and I always wonder about the journey beginning with birth that takes some people to this place, or indeed anywhere we end up. Is it just luck, fate, lessons? the point I was trying to make was about compassion, though, which sometimes allows us to see the humanity beneath the horror.

But from a Christian POV, isn't hell something that those damned to it would want to escape, instead of cling to? Of am I being to literal? Mark, help me out here.

Edited by Beany, 05 January 2013 - 11:40 PM.

[SpiritWriter]

I believe you, on 05 January 2013 - 10:56 PM, said:

Keep in mind I am a Christian too. Just not the type to think we have the only answers and you will suffer if you choose another path. Too long have Christians had that mentality, I would rather treat believers from other faiths and non-believers as equals.

Me too... but as christians we can still express ourselves as christians.. there will still be a lapse or clash with this "treating everyone as equals" thing because so many have their perceptions about what someone else means or is trying to say.. just saying, but I understand what you mean...

Good topic

Edited by SpiritWriter, 06 January 2013 - 12:06 AM.

[markdohle]

Beany, on 05 January 2013 - 11:36 PM, said:

I agree about free choice.  As if our choices are free of what? One's environment? One's experiences? One's IQ? One's maturity? One's genetics? One's culture? One's family history? One's education? One's ability to engage in critical thinking? Yeah, for me hell is a state of mind, and I always wonder about the journey beginning with birth that takes some people to this place, or indeed anywhere we end up. Is it just luck, fate, lessons? the point I was trying to make was about compassion, though, which sometimes allows us to see the humanity beneath the horror.

But from a Christian POV, isn't hell something that those damned to it would want to escape, instead of cling to? Of am I being to literal? Mark, help me out here.

I am like you, trying to make sense of it.  If hell is real, then it deals with the deepest aspect of who we are and our ability to choose light or darkness, good and evil.  A mystery does not mean we can't understand, it means that we never get to the bottom of it.  The problem is when people say this it what it 'means' which takes away the search for deeper understanding.  When religion and even spriturality become an ideology then it dies.  Hell is for deeper questions to be asked about who we are, our responsibility and what we are capable of becoming through our freedom.......which may take a iife time to develop,.... the final answer, only God in is mercy, (speaking of course as a Christian) knows.  Your heart is wide open my friend, I think you are further along than I am, for you have true humility and love of others.

peace
mark

Arpee, on 05 January 2013 - 11:32 PM, said:

"Darkness", "Aloneness" , "Light", "Love", "God"...

All concepts which can lead to an "Us vs. Them" mentality. You will be "here" for all eternity. I guess that is true since "Now" is always happening and  wherever you go it will always be "Here". If you are suffering, you are in hell no matter where you are.

Not my intent, but I understand.

peace
mark

SpiritWriter, on 06 January 2013 - 12:04 AM, said:

Me too... but as christians we can still express ourselves as christians.. there will still be a lapse or clash with this "treating everyone as equals" thing because so many have their perceptions about what someone else means or is trying to say.. just saying, but I understand what you mean...

Good topic

You listen well, I learn a lot from your ability to see deeply into what others are trying to say.

peace
mark

[markdohle]

Beany, on 05 January 2013 - 11:36 PM, said:

I agree about free choice.  As if our choices are free of what? One's environment? One's experiences? One's IQ? One's maturity? One's genetics? One's culture? One's family history? One's education? One's ability to engage in critical thinking? Yeah, for me hell is a state of mind, and I always wonder about the journey beginning with birth that takes some people to this place, or indeed anywhere we end up. Is it just luck, fate, lessons? the point I was trying to make was about compassion, though, which sometimes allows us to see the humanity beneath the horror.

But from a Christian POV, isn't hell something that those damned to it would want to escape, instead of cling to? Of am I being to literal? Mark, help me out here.

One more point, in hell, there is no place to escape to, that is reality for them, what they are, not a place where they are.

peace
mark

[Lava_Lady]

markdohle, on 05 January 2013 - 01:30 PM, said:

I am a soul in hell

In a place of cold unloving I reside,
my inner being delights in hate,
love is a flame that causes me pain,
so I prefer the dark and aloneness.

I hate all who are in the light,
detesting the happiness that they have,
wishing only that they join me
in my eternal rage turned within,
they being here
giving me something to batter,
to relieve this everlasting
building of inner hate.

How I wish to have the good to torture,
those pious fools who love God and light,
whose very presence blinds and suffocates my soul,
if only there was a deeper darkness to go.

I was not sent,
I flung myself here,
my true home my refuge,
from that light that beckons me
that I can’t abide in.
I regret nothing,
repentance is not for me,
my place is here
for eternity,

Care to join me?

I an assuming this is an original... nice work... Dark.

[markdohle]

Lava_Lady, on 06 January 2013 - 12:24 AM, said:

I an assuming this is an original... nice work... Dark.

Yeah it is, I am scary to some of my friend, but harmless ;-).  Thank you.

peace
mark

[AquilaChrysaetos]

HavocWing, on 05 January 2013 - 04:36 PM, said:

I think this is a topic purely for attacking athiests and glorifying christianity.  You are supposed to love your enemies.

Simply loving someone alone does not change the nature of sin. We can love atheists and therefore also strongly disagree.

Edited by AquilaChrysaetos, 06 January 2013 - 01:58 AM.

[HavocWing]

AquilaChrysaetos, on 06 January 2013 - 01:56 AM, said:

Simply loving someone alone does not change the nature of sin. We can love atheists and therefore also strongly disagree.

Exactly what sin are you talking about?

[AquilaChrysaetos]

HavocWing, on 06 January 2013 - 02:12 AM, said:

Exactly what sin are you talking about?

Dude, there's just too many to count... Although the primary one being the refusal to worship Jesus Christ...

[HavocWing]

AquilaChrysaetos, on 06 January 2013 - 02:19 AM, said:

Dude, there's just too many to count... Although the primary one being the refusal to worship Jesus Christ...

What does not worshiping him have anything to do with sin?

Edited by HavocWing, 06 January 2013 - 03:24 AM.