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Aristotle against existence of Atlantis? No!

aristotle plato atlantis history of science

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#91    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 11:49 AM

Kmt Sesh: The fable of Atlantis pops up for the first time in Plato's Timaeus and Critias, and later writers merely commented on it.

This is wrong.
Atlantis story was consider to be true during Rome empire. And there are enough comments. Especially if we know that most of antique texts were lost.
We have only tiny part.

(btw:this goes for you as moderator- Why dont you provide us and secure us little Poseidon smiley? Since you are Moderator and you are mostly in Ancient Mysteries. We have have ET smiley it would be nice that we have Atlantis one. You know for "teasing" sceptics. Such as you. :rolleyes: )



@all

Happy New Year!
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Edited by the L, 02 January 2013 - 11:57 AM.

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#92    Proclus

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 01:07 PM

Happy New Year to Everybody!

View Postthe L, on 01 January 2013 - 11:08 PM, said:

What could probably inspired Plato was Helike which was destroyed when Plato have had 50 years. Interestingly before we discover Helike again in 20 century we thought on it as another myth. So this could replace Troy if one doesnt like it as example when myth become reality. Also Plato was historian.

Helike was mentioned by the ancient author Proclus to show ... that Atlantis could be real.
(Proclus also uses Aristotle to show that Atlantis was real.)
I personally think that Plato made use of the Helike experience to describe the sinking of Atlantis,
but not to invent the idea of sinking itself. It's a conclusion drawn by Plato: Such must have been the mechanism of sinking.


View Postthe L, on 01 January 2013 - 11:08 PM, said:

Also I didnt notice where Aristotele spoke about land beyond pillars.
He does it by seeing the earth as a sphere (what Plato did, too).
Especially when it comes to the elephants, Aristotle sees a connection of land,
otherwise his mentioning of elephants in this special way made no sense.

View Postkmt_sesh, on 02 January 2013 - 12:36 AM, said:

Proclus has mentioned the Minoan frescoes known from the same period in the Hyksos centers of the Egyptian Delta. I think he's trying to make more of this than he needs to. The connection is indeed interesting, but Minoan material culture has been found in archaeological contexts all over the eastern Mediterranean world.

Where else do you find Minoan freskoes? (Not pottery)

View Postkmt_sesh, on 02 January 2013 - 12:36 AM, said:

Plato was not an historian. He did not write history, nor was he interested in history just for the sake of it. Plato wrote philosophy. There's a good reason Plato is not regarded as an historian by modern scholars in the academic community.

There is a wide-spreak discussion among scholars to which extent Plato was a historian,
and it is concluded that in the Laws Plato was very accurate in depicting history.

View PostThe Puzzler, on 02 January 2013 - 01:30 AM, said:

Finally, someone who speaks the most sense I've heard on here in a long time. I agree Plato's belief in cyclical time is the key to the timeframe. I have much reason to assume Plato is speaking seriously when it comes to Atlantis. Happy New Year.

Thank you, Puzzler! :-)

Academic approaches towards Atlantis as a real place: www.Atlantis-Scout.de!

#93    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 01:25 PM

View PostProclus, on 02 January 2013 - 01:07 PM, said:


Helike was mentioned by the ancient author Proclus to show ... that Atlantis could be real.
(Proclus also uses Aristotle to show that Atlantis was real.)


Could you devleped that? If you claim something it would be nice to elaborate. Maybe it is common knowledge to you and you think there is no need for it. But it is not common knowledge to me.

Also when Atlantis attack Egypt?
Can you explain your view on Plato cyclical history? When Atlantis was destroyed according to you?
On what langage Logos mean Truth?

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#94    docyabut2

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 01:46 PM

Helike was in Plato`s time,however the tale of the destuction of Atlantis was supposely  given to Solon in the fifth century bc, so it had to be before Solon`s time.:)


#95    Proclus

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 02:28 PM

View Postthe L, on 02 January 2013 - 01:25 PM, said:

Could you devleped that? If you claim something it would be nice to elaborate. Maybe it is common knowledge to you and you think there is no need for it. But it is not common knowledge to me.

Also when Atlantis attack Egypt?
Can you explain your view on Plato cyclical history? When Atlantis was destroyed according to you?
On what langage Logos mean Truth?

Proclus wrote about Plato's Atlantis in his commentary on Plato's Timaeus.
http://archive.org/d...eTimaeusOfPlato

The date of Atlantis and its attack depends on your choice what could have been Atlantis:
In principle every attacker on Egypt is in question, there were many ...

Plato's cyclical history: shows at least two cycles:
A big cycle of reigns of Zeus resp. Cronos (Politicus dialogue).
Smaller cycles of development and destruction of human culture, each of approx. 3000 years.
(Mentioned in the Republic, in the Atlantis dialogues and in the Laws, e.g.)

Logos does not directly mean truth, it has two meanings in Plato's dialogues:
( a ) Every kind of spoken word, true or false.
( b ) A statement which has some support, a reason, a witness, whatever => tends to mean truth, then.
Opposite to b is the mythos.

Since Plato himself sets the mythos as opposed to the logos of Atlantis we know that logos is meant in the second way ( b ), here.

View Postdocyabut2, on 02 January 2013 - 01:46 PM, said:

Helike was in Plato`s time,however the tale of the destuction of Atlantis was supposely  given to Solon in the fifth century bc, so it had to be before Solon`s time. :)

docyabut2, this is true only if Plato did not invent the story with Solon, and since we do not know this, your argument is not valid.

Edited by Proclus, 02 January 2013 - 02:32 PM.

Academic approaches towards Atlantis as a real place: www.Atlantis-Scout.de!

#96    cormac mac airt

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 04:17 PM

View Postthe L, on 02 January 2013 - 11:41 AM, said:

Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence.
There are indications.
I learnt if there is 1% chance something being true we must follow that lead. As Einstein told us: Most valuable thing is intuition.
My intuition tells me that Plato was saying the truth.
And others. :yes:

But it is the only evidence that we have and therefore the only evidence that matters. One shouldn't base an argument on evidence that doesn't exist or hasn't been found yet.

As to your "chance something being true we must follow that lead", one could make the argument (and someone probably has at some point) that Stargate SG-1 really IS a documentary. :rolleyes:  Sounds ignorant doesn't it? Yet the latter is no more ignorant than the "chance something being true we must follow that lead", especially when all the relevant evidence shows that this "chance" is incorrect and therefore nothing more than wishful thinking.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#97    cormac mac airt

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 04:29 PM

View Postthe L, on 02 January 2013 - 11:20 AM, said:

I like you cormac because you are so systemtic. I remeber once when I discuss with you about "Marco Polo being a Croatian orgin or not" I told you that you skip things. I was wrong. I apologize. You dont skip.

Yes but Plato want only one who mentioned Atlanits. He was first to mention as we know it. But others discuss about Atlantis. That was my thought. And for some we doesnt know are influenced by Plato at all.

If you want, Im sure that if we have had 4/5 of missing Aristotele works that we would know better.
Also we dont have any orginal Plato work. Only copies. So who knows is something missed in process.


Im not sure that we understand well orgin of all haplogroups.

Also what about OP idea that we must move time when Atlantis fell?

Again, one shouldn't base an argument on evidence we don't have.

We have a lot better understanding of the origin and distribution of haplogroups than what you might think. And it gets more precise with each new genetic study.

First, try showing any place around the Mediterranean that EVER went by the name Atlantis at any point in ancient history. Because claiming this or that location "might" have been an inspiration for the story doesn't make them Atlantis.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#98    Proclus

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 04:30 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 02 January 2013 - 04:17 PM, said:

But it is the only evidence that we have and therefore the only evidence that matters. One shouldn't base an argument on evidence that doesn't exist or hasn't been found yet.

As to your "chance something being true we must follow that lead", one could make the argument (and someone probably has at some point) that Stargate SG-1 really IS a documentary. :rolleyes:  Sounds ignorant doesn't it? Yet the latter is no more ignorant than the "chance something being true we must follow that lead", especially when all the relevant evidence shows that this "chance" is incorrect and therefore nothing more than wishful thinking.

The comparison of Stargate and Plato's Atlantis is inappropriate. Stargate does not present itself as a true story, and its authors do not want to express deep thoughts on government, and also in their other works they are not known as such; furhtermore we know that the Stargate authors live in our times and share our common views of the world. All this is different with Plato and Atlantis. It's like comparing the gospels with Disney's Mickey Mouse - epic fail I would say, even if the gospels were fully wrong.

Academic approaches towards Atlantis as a real place: www.Atlantis-Scout.de!

#99    cormac mac airt

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 04:32 PM

View PostProclus, on 02 January 2013 - 04:30 PM, said:

The comparison of Stargate and Plato's Atlantis is inappropriate. Stargate does not present itself as a true story, and its authors do not want to express deep thoughts on government, and also in their other works they are not known as such; furhtermore we know that the Stargate authors live in our times and share our common views of the world. All this is different with Plato and Atlantis. It's like comparing the gospels with Disney's Mickey Mouse - epic fail I would say, even if the gospels were fully wrong.

The comparison of Plato's Atlantis and reality is inappropriate. If you have specific evidence showing it existed then present it.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#100    docyabut2

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 05:04 PM

qoute-docyabut2, this is true only if Plato did not invent the story with Solon, and since we do not know this, your argument is not valid.


Most say the tale of Atlantis was not real and it was just Plato `s made up story ,but yet  the persons of the dialogues, Socrate, Hemocrates and Critas Plato's great-uncle or Grandfather  who gave the tale at the banquet were real people. Solon was real person.Would Plato used real greek men  and their words in a made up story?

Edited by docyabut2, 02 January 2013 - 05:06 PM.


#101    questionmark

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 05:14 PM

View Postdocyabut2, on 02 January 2013 - 05:04 PM, said:

qoute-docyabut2, this is true only if Plato did not invent the story with Solon, and since we do not know this, your argument is not valid.


Most say the tale of Atlantis was not real and it was just Plato `s made up story ,but yet  the persons of the dialogues, Socrate, Hemocrates and Critas Plato's great-uncle or Grandfather  who gave the tale at the banquet were real people. Solon was real person.Would Plato used real greek men  and their words in a made up story?

good question... but could it be for the same reason some novelists put real people in their novels to make them more credible?

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#102    Quaentum

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 05:19 PM

View Postthe L, on 02 January 2013 - 11:41 AM, said:

Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence.

Nor is it support of existence

AA LOGIC
They didn't use thousands of workers - oops forgot about the work camps
There's no evidence for ramps - You found one?...Bummer
Well we know they didn't use ancient tools to cut and shape the stones - Chisel marks?  Craps
I still say aliens built them!

#103    Quaentum

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 05:42 PM

View Postthe L, on 02 January 2013 - 11:49 AM, said:

Kmt Sesh: The fable of Atlantis pops up for the first time in Plato's Timaeus and Critias, and later writers merely commented on it.

This is wrong.
Atlantis story was consider to be true during Rome empire. And there are enough comments. Especially if we know that most of antique texts were lost.
We have only tiny part.

(btw:this goes for you as moderator- Why dont you provide us and secure us little Poseidon smiley? Since you are Moderator and you are mostly in Ancient Mysteries. We have have ET smiley it would be nice that we have Atlantis one. You know for "teasing" sceptics. Such as you. :rolleyes: )



@all

Happy New Year!
Posted Image

At what point in time is the story of Atlantis considered true in the roman empire?

AA LOGIC
They didn't use thousands of workers - oops forgot about the work camps
There's no evidence for ramps - You found one?...Bummer
Well we know they didn't use ancient tools to cut and shape the stones - Chisel marks?  Craps
I still say aliens built them!

#104    Proclus

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 06:34 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 02 January 2013 - 04:32 PM, said:

The comparison of Plato's Atlantis and reality is inappropriate. If you have specific evidence showing it existed then present it.

cormac, still on the search for an Atlantis on the silver plate?
Look, for very few things in history we have "specific evidence" ...

View Postquestionmark, on 02 January 2013 - 05:14 PM, said:

good question... but could it be for the same reason some novelists put real people in their novels to make them more credible?

It can not. Novels like this were invented much later, as Wilhelm Brandenstein rightly pointed out. Instead of guessing how Plato constructed his dialogues you should read a good book on this.

Edited by Proclus, 02 January 2013 - 06:34 PM.

Academic approaches towards Atlantis as a real place: www.Atlantis-Scout.de!

#105    cormac mac airt

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 07:03 PM

View PostProclus, on 02 January 2013 - 06:34 PM, said:

cormac, still on the search for an Atlantis on the silver plate?
Look, for very few things in history we have "specific evidence" ...



It can not. Novels like this were invented much later, as Wilhelm Brandenstein rightly pointed out. Instead of guessing how Plato constructed his dialogues you should read a good book on this.

Still playing "Let's pretend"? That's not the way science nor reality works.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus





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