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Doggerland


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#196    Abramelin

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Posted 17 March 2010 - 08:13 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 17 March 2010 - 05:56 PM, said:

While not downplaying the importance of the area known as Doggerland in the migration of early European peoples, post LGM, they may have been more of a way-station than the origin of any of the local peoples.



Different genetic components in the Norwegian population revealed by the analysis of mtDNA and Y chromosome polymorphisms

cormac


Thanks Cormac, great find.

But it only shows the ancestors of the Scandinavian people came through northern Germany and Doggerland.

What is there about the Picts, btw?

I agree, the ancestors of the Doggerlanders must have come from somewhere, but they settled in Doggerland for millennia, and then moved on after their land got flooded.

So yes, their ancestors may have had genetic links with people in the Dniepr-Don Valley area, but that doesn't mean they didn't change (genetically) over the millennia.

From what I gathered on the internet, they stayed there long enough, created their own culture, changed genetically to some degree, and then moved on, forced by the circumstances.


"Archaeological evidences have suggested that the core of the oldest populations colonising Scandinavia 11 000 –12 000 thousand years ago came from the present Germany. They probably went through the Jutland and the now submerged Doggerland, and then headed northward via the ice-free coastal area of Norway."


I have been talking ad nauseum about the Doggerlanders as they were at 6100 BC/8100 BP, and that's almost 3000 years later than the upper limit (11,000 BC) of the time-span in the text I  quoted from your post.


#197    cormac mac airt

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Posted 17 March 2010 - 09:15 PM

Quote

But it only shows the ancestors of the Scandinavian people came through northern Germany and Doggerland.

Yes, which rules out the peoples of Doggerland as being ancestral to Scandinavians to the east and at least part, if not all, of the adjacent mainland of Europe.

Quote

What is there about the Picts, btw?

Nothing AFAIK, as there is no evidence of the Picts as a people dating from c.6200-6100 BC. There was one DNA test done, claiming association with the Picts, but considering the results only dated back about 1000 years is entirely irrelevant to the discussion.

Quote

So yes, their ancestors may have had genetic links with people in the Dniepr-Don Valley area, but that doesn't mean they didn't change (genetically) over the millennia.

And, considering you have that information from the file I sent you, particularly as relates to the phylogenetic trees, you also know that there is no genetic evidence to show that they (or anyone else) did change, especially in such a short period of time.

Quote

I have been talking ad nauseum about the Doggerlanders as they were at 6100 BC/8100 BP, and that's almost 3000 years later than the upper limit (11,000 BC) of the time-span in the text I quoted from your post.

I realize that, but as it stands there is no evidence that Doggerland was the origin of any peoples in the area. Also, AFAIK, there is no evidence for a substantial population which would change (genetically) as you speculated previously, in the area of Doggerland.

None of which means that Doggerland is unimportant to the story of human migration, far from it.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#198    Abramelin

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Posted 17 March 2010 - 09:31 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 17 March 2010 - 09:15 PM, said:

-1- Yes, which rules out the peoples of Doggerland as being ancestral to Scandinavians to the east and at least part, if not all, of the adjacent mainland of Europe.



-2- Nothing AFAIK, as there is no evidence of the Picts as a people dating from c.6200-6100 BC. There was one DNA test done, claiming association with the Picts, but considering the results only dated back about 1000 years is entirely irrelevant to the discussion.



-3- And, considering you have that information from the file I sent you, particularly as relates to the phylogenetic trees, you also know that there is no genetic evidence to show that they (or anyone else) did change, especially in such a short period of time.



-4- I realize that, but as it stands there is no evidence that Doggerland was the origin of any peoples in the area. Also, AFAIK, there is no evidence for a substantial population which would change (genetically) as you speculated previously, in the area of Doggerland.

None of which means that Doggerland is unimportant to the story of human migration, far from it.

cormac


-1- It could as well be possible that Doggerlanders spread to Northern Germany, Denmark, and then to the rest of Scandinavia.

-2- There were people in Scotland, back at 10,000 BP. If not Picts, who were they?

-3- 3000 years is a lot of time, but I must admit that I don't know of any rules concerning the time necessary for a genetic shift/drift.

-4- It has been said by scientists that the Doggerland area was a pleasent place to be in, contrary to all the other areas bordering the north Euro-Asian ice sheets of the Last Ice Age.

Btw, I didn't speculate anyting, I just copied what was being postulated by scientists.


#199    cormac mac airt

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Posted 17 March 2010 - 10:56 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 17 March 2010 - 09:31 PM, said:

-1- It could as well be possible that Doggerlanders spread to Northern Germany, Denmark, and then to the rest of Scandinavia.

-2- There were people in Scotland, back at 10,000 BP. If not Picts, who were they?

-3- 3000 years is a lot of time, but I must admit that I don't know of any rules concerning the time necessary for a genetic shift/drift.

-4- It has been said by scientists that the Doggerland area was a pleasent place to be in, contrary to all the other areas bordering the north Euro-Asian ice sheets of the Last Ice Age.

Btw, I didn't speculate anyting, I just copied what was being postulated by scientists.


1. It could be, but without archaeological or genetic evidence to differentiate them from anyone else, its rather a moot point.


2. There were people in Cramond, Scotland from c.8500 BC, but nothing to indicate a connection with the Picts specifically. Particularly as "Pict" was more of a physical description used by the Romans of the time than anything useful to determine ancestry from 8000+ years before.

3. I can only go by the evidence, which doesn't show any indications of having significantly changed in such a short amount of time.

4. It may have been the ideal place to live, who knows, but whether your idea or something postulated by other scientists, such a change  currently remains unevidenced. Perhaps in time that will change.

cormac

Edited by cormac mac airt, 17 March 2010 - 10:57 PM.

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#200    lightly

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Posted 17 March 2010 - 11:08 PM

cormac mac airt,  if i'm remembering the name right  ... wasn't cormac mac airt  a third century Irish King?  
       ... supposedly he existed somewhere in the trunk of my family tree  ^_^ .  
  Happy Saint Patrick's Day !*!*
      M.  O'Lightly :)

Edited by lightly, 17 March 2010 - 11:14 PM.

Important:  The above may contain errors, inaccuracies, omissions, and other limitations.

#201    cormac mac airt

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Posted 17 March 2010 - 11:24 PM

View Postlightly, on 17 March 2010 - 11:08 PM, said:

cormac mac airt,  if i'm remembering the name right  ... wasn't cormac mac airt  a third century Irish King?  
       ... supposedly he existed somewhere in the trunk of my family tree  ^_^ .  
  Happy Saint Patrick's Day !*!*
      M.  O'Lightly :)

Right you are. He's a legendary High King from the mid-third century.

Happy Saint Patrick's Day to you as well.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#202    SlimJim22

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Posted 17 March 2010 - 11:37 PM

Treat yourselves to a pint of black in the name of cormac  :o

Trying to dig on Picts and the black sea keeps coming up. With few written records that are unbiased it's hard to get a clear picture but I thought this site wasn't too bad.

http://www.englandan...sh/default.aspx

Enjoy!

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#203    Abramelin

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Posted 18 March 2010 - 05:00 PM

View PostSlimJim22, on 17 March 2010 - 11:37 PM, said:

Treat yourselves to a pint of black in the name of cormac  Posted Image

Trying to dig on Picts and the black sea keeps coming up. With few written records that are unbiased it's hard to get a clear picture but I thought this site wasn't too bad.

http://www.englandan...sh/default.aspx

Enjoy!

Jim, it certainly isn't a bad site, but the earliest mentioned date on that site is 4000 BC, and we are here talking about at least 6100 BC.


#204    Abramelin

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Posted 18 March 2010 - 05:32 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 17 March 2010 - 10:56 PM, said:

1. It could be, but without archaeological or genetic evidence to differentiate them from anyone else, its rather a moot point.


2. There were people in Cramond, Scotland from c.8500 BC, but nothing to indicate a connection with the Picts specifically. Particularly as "Pict" was more of a physical description used by the Romans of the time than anything useful to determine ancestry from 8000+ years before.

3. I can only go by the evidence, which doesn't show any indications of having significantly changed in such a short amount of time.

4. It may have been the ideal place to live, who knows, but whether your idea or something postulated by other scientists, such a change  currently remains unevidenced. Perhaps in time that will change.

cormac

Cormac, maybe it would be better of I read the book I posted a review of earlier ( HERE  ) to know how and why scientists came to certain conclusions. All I can do now is try to find answers on the internet.

-

Maybe they did not differ genetically, but in let's say 3000 years developed a culture that was different from the then surrounding countries (based on Doggerland being a sort of Mesolothical heaven as compared to other north- European areas back then). Or maybe they did differ genetically, and that is why we find a genetic difference between north-estern Europeans and the rest of Europe, and that's based on them spreading all over north-western Europe after Doggerland was destroyed.
But true of course, all this is mere speculation, and that is why I am trying to find any sort of 'proof' or clues in ancient legends that might point to some sort of homeland of the ancient invaders of Scotland, Ireland. And here lies the problem: the Christian monks very probably did their best to add to the myths they put on paper to 'prove' the story of Babel and the (lost) tribes of Israel.


-

I talk about the Picts because they may have been the oldest inhabitants of Scotland, and it is said that even Irish and Brittonic monks (and those that came before the Christian missionaries) needed interpretors to be able to convey their message to these Picts, meaning: they didnt speak P or C Goidelic (sp?) . Of course they must have had a different name for themselves, but now we only have "Picts"/"Cruithne" as the name others gave them.

And there have been finds in Scotland that date to the Doggerland era and before that time, and are the same as found on the Doggers Bank and Denmark. I only want to say it may be possible that they - these 'Picts' or whatever their true name was -  were refugees from Doggerland or related directly to the people once living there.

Edited by Abramelin, 18 March 2010 - 05:35 PM.


#205    SlimJim22

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Posted 18 March 2010 - 05:33 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 18 March 2010 - 05:00 PM, said:

Jim, it certainly isn't a bad site, but the earliest mentioned date on that site is 4000 BC, and we are here talking about at least 6100 BC.

Therein lies the obstacle I came across. Other than the De Vere info I could find little going back that far. Casting aside all of his assumptions are we left with archaeology relating to a people of fair complexion who buried their dead in mounds, painted their skin and used the spiral? If so then I think we are looking at picts and therefore they could well be the people inhabiting the north of Europe inclusing Doggerland. The word Cruithne does seems strongly associated as you mentioned.

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#206    Abramelin

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Posted 18 March 2010 - 06:11 PM

View PostSlimJim22, on 18 March 2010 - 05:33 PM, said:

Therein lies the obstacle I came across. Other than the De Vere info I could find little going back that far. Casting aside all of his assumptions are we left with archaeology relating to a people of fair complexion who buried their dead in mounds, painted their skin and used the spiral? If so then I think we are looking at picts and therefore they could well be the people inhabiting the north of Europe inclusing Doggerland. The word Cruithne does seems strongly associated as you mentioned.

Fair complexion, mounds, painted skin, spirals....if these people were around at around 8000 BC, yeah, then they could have travelled to Doggerland. But as far as I know they were not, and so could not have lived in Doggerland.


#207    Abramelin

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Posted 18 March 2010 - 06:25 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 18 March 2010 - 06:11 PM, said:

Fair complexion, mounds, painted skin, spirals....if these people were around at around 8000 BC, yeah, then they could have travelled to Doggerland. But as far as I know they were not, and so could not have lived in Doggerland.


I found some info on these Cruithne:


The Cruithne or Cruithin were a semi-mythical people, with occasional historic reference in Irish sources, that lived within the British Isles during the Iron Age. Specifically, Cruithne was the contemporary Irish word for the peoples referred to in Roman histories, and subsequent derivative works, as the Picts.

According to T. F. O'Rahilly's historical model, the Cruithne were descended from the Priteni, who O'Rahilly argues were the first Celtic group to inhabit the British Isles, and identifies with the Picts of Scotland. They settled in Britain and Ireland between 700 and 500 BC. They used iron and spoke a P-Celtic language, calling themselves Priteni or Pritani,[1] which is the origin of the Latin word Britannia and the Old English words "Briton" and "British".

More recent theories, supported by archaeological evidence, suggest that the Cruithne were a pre-Celtic people, and may have spoken a non-Indo-European language before the spread and dominance of Celtic culture in Ireland and Britain. It is also suggested that these people were the descendants of the aboriginal neolithic people of the isles. Around 50 BC Diodorus wrote of "those of the Pretani who inhabit the country called Iris (Ireland)". The first reference to the name Pict is found in a Latin document dated 297 AD.


The Strathpeffer Eagle Stone : The latin term "Pict" is from the same stem-word as the english word "picture". Warriors of pictish tribes encountered by the Roman Emperial forces were famously naked, and painted from head to toe, often in blue Woad. The physical remnants of the culture is largely represented by intricately engraved standing stones.


"The finest examples of ornamented stone monuments, metal work and jewellery have been found in the areas of Britain and Ireland that had, at one time, been inhabited by the 'Cruithne.' The term is now applied to some of the Britons of the parts of Scotland beyond the Roman Walls where some southern tribes of Britons, rather than submit to Roman rule joined and merged with the northern Britons, who, before the Roman invasion had also peopled a part of Northern Ireland.
"The nickname Pict given by the Roman soldiery to these northern Britons was a descriptive one. It referred to fondness for colours as a characteristic and to their amazing skill in firing enamel colours on metal ornaments for the warrior, his horse and chariot. In battle, the Britons, for unhampered movements, discarded all clothing and decorated their bodies in colours with tribal symbols, charms and patterns.
"The ornaments in the Books of Darrow, Kells, Lindisfarne, St. Chad, MacRegol, and MacDurnan are similar to those of the Pictish ornamented stones of the east coast of Britain from Durham to Shetland and to the ornamented stones in the Pictish area of north Ireland. In the remaining parts of Britain and Ireland the Celtic ornaments of the stone monuments are different and belong to a variety of schools of Celtic Art. A few fragments, that survived the thoroughness of Augustine and his Church in carrying out the order of Pope Gregory the Great to completely destroy the early British Celtic Christian Church, are evidences that the Picts returned to the midlands of England after the fall of Rome." -- George Bain in Celtic Art: The Method and Construction (1951, Wm Maclellan Publisher)
George Bain in Celtic Art: The Method and Construction (1951, Wm Maclellan Publisher) discusses similarities between the early stonework, metalwork, and manuscript illuminative artwork of Britain, the earliest records of which are attributed to the "Pictish" culture, and ancient Asiatic art. In this he draws support from Dr. Ananda K. Coomaraswamy of the Boston Museum of Fine Arts, in correspondence published in the same manuscript.


According to Bain, the "peculiar manner of expressing the forms and movements of animals may be seen in the metal work of the 5000 B.C. to 3000 B.C. period of culture of the City of Ur " (Sumeria). He found significant, unmistakable similarity in some motifs, with designs of pre-historic Greece, Cnossus (Crete), Mayan people of Central America, and Buddhist India.

Like many prehistoric cultures, early culture endemic to Britain contains no realistic portrayal of natural forms, probably because it was forbidden to represent them -- a restriction found in many cultures still extant, or recorded in detail in available written historical records.

According to Bain, much of what had been written about such early British art and history was inaccurate, frequently the result of inadequate examination of the evidence, as well as political influences, such as the domination of the Roman Catholic church after the Synod of Whitby of 664. Bain's tract continues, from "after the fall of Rome": "The political purpose of the Synod of Whitby was to give the glory of civilizing and Christianizing of the 'Savage Britons' to the Church of St. Peter." Whether he is correct about motivations, the existence of pre-Catholic Christianity in Britain is largely forgotten, but it is well represented in the remaining Pictish art.

Bain's critique of 19th and early 20th Century historical interpretations of Pictish culture was based in his lifelong study of the remnant artwork, the stylistic and methodological evolution of which he claimed demonstrated significant inaccuracies in the accepted historical development of the peoples and associated artworks, which Bain claimed had not received more than a cursory examination prior to his own study, due mainly to a lack of supporting historical records which simplify such a task.

It should be noted that Pytheas in about 325 BC is credited with first recording the local name of the islands, in Greek as Prettanike - apparently in connection with the Cornish region - which Diodorus later rendered Pretannia.

In Britain these Priteni were absorbed by later invaders and lost their cultural identity, except in the far north where they were known to the Romans as Picti, or “painted people,” on account of their practice of decorating their bodies with paint or tattoos (a practice which by then had died out among other Celtic tribes). In Ireland, too, the Priteni were largely absorbed by later settlers; but a few pockets of them managed to retain a measure of cultural, if not political, independence well into the Christian era. By then they were identified as Cruithne, P-Celtic linguistic descendants of the Priteni.

Among the Cruthnian tribes that survived were the Loíges and Fothairt in Leinster. The name of the first of these tribes - modernized as Laois - has been revived and given to one of the counties of Leinster (formerly known as Queen's County).

The existence of the Cruithne in Ireland as a pre-Gaelic people has led some (particularly unionists) to advocate the theory that they were not, as some nationalists consider, a "non-native" people.



LINK






#208    Abramelin

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Posted 18 March 2010 - 08:01 PM

More:


The CRUITHIN (or CRUITHNE) Tribes aka Picts were/are an indigenous people dating back to the Neolithic period in Europe and the British Isles. Many different theories have been put forth as to who they were/are but the most reasonable idea seems to be that they were a pre-Celtic people sometimes known as the Skara Brae culture that lived in underground dwellings, fortresses, and tunnels. They were a short, dark-skinned people. They were matrilinear, and practiced polyandry. Certain males at certain times were named as a male incarnation of The Mother Goddess.

Charles G. Leland, the Great 19th century expert in gypsy language, folklore, and customs discovered and wrote about Shelta or Minkler’s Thari aka the Language of the Travellers.

Once, Leland met a tinker who spoke a completely unidentified language. The Tinker told Leland that it was the “Ould language” of the Picts. The Cruithne were the original inhabitants of Albans or Albany.

http://waveridergala...bouttheearths2n

http://www.cyberpict...ssays/picts.htm




#209    SlimJim22

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Posted 18 March 2010 - 10:05 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 18 March 2010 - 08:01 PM, said:

More:

The CRUITHIN (or CRUITHNE) Tribes aka Picts were/are an indigenous people dating back to the Neolithic period in Europe and the British Isles. Many different theories have been put forth as to who they were/are but the most reasonable idea seems to be that they were a pre-Celtic people sometimes known as the Skara Brae culture that lived in underground dwellings, fortresses, and tunnels. They were a short, dark-skinned people. They were matrilinear, and practiced polyandry. Certain males at certain times were named as a male incarnation of The Mother Goddess.

Charles G. Leland, the Great 19th century expert in gypsy language, folklore, and customs discovered and wrote about Shelta or Minkler’s Thari aka the Language of the Travellers.

Once, Leland met a tinker who spoke a completely unidentified language. The Tinker told Leland that it was the “Ould language” of the Picts. The Cruithne were the original inhabitants of Albans or Albany.

http://waveridergala...bouttheearths2n

http://www.cyberpict...ssays/picts.htm

I look forward to reading those links. You reminded me of something with the "ould language" I read years back about St Martins land. can't remember precisley what or where I read but I got the impression of a mythical underworld under Europe. I just tried searching and came up with tribwatch, I know not a good source and hop-of-israel, not credible but they do reference lots of titles and make bizzarre connections. I will keep looking because this is starting to ignite my imagination some.
http://www.hope-of-i...l.org/copan.htm

http://en.wikipedia....dren_of_Woolpit

Edited by SlimJim22, 18 March 2010 - 10:06 PM.

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#210    Essan

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Posted 19 March 2010 - 10:14 AM

Modern DNA studies indicate that most of us in Britain and Ireland are directly descended from the first peoples to migrate back here after the end of the last Glacial.  Our ancestors came from what is now northern Spain.  Since there there has been numerous waves of other incomers, but these have tended not to dilute the genetic pool to any great extent and the main changes they have brought have been cultural.

Stephen Oppenheimer may not be entirely right, but I doubt he's far off

http://www.prospectm...ritishancestry/

I recommend his book

http://www.bradshawf...he_british.html

The likes of Francis Pryor - probably our best known archaeologist today - support this idea.

Worth  noting too that current belief is that the 'English' are in fact the Belgic culture and were living here, and indeed speaking a form of English, before the Romans came.  The Anglo Saxon invasion is now nowt but a myth.


As for Doggerland - it's very likely some of our ancestors hunted there.  And it's likely too that it was there our ancestors first encountered other peoples migrating across Europe from Russia and the Black Sea region.  May well have been quite a cultural melting pot for a time.

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