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Croatian hero Ante Gotovina acquitted of war


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#46    the L

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 08:53 PM

Hi Helen.

Is this what you talking about?

In this doucment Serbian leader Milan Martić ,on 4th August 1994 ordered Serbs to leave Croatia.
On another hand President of CroatiaTudjman was calling them to stay in their country Croatia.

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I remembered. You translated it.

View PostHelen of Annoy, on 19 June 2011 - 12:24 PM, said:


Republic of Srpska Krajina
Supreme Defence Council
Knin, August 04th 1995
16.45
Number 2-3113-1/95

Due to recent situation development (...) open general aggression of Republic of Croatia on Republic of Srpska Krajina and after first initial successes in defence, the large part of territories of North Dalmatia and part of Lika are in danger, therefore
WE DESIDE (they probably meant “decide”, it reads “ohlučujemo” instead of “odlučujemo”)
1. To start (...) evacuation of all population unfit for combat out of opštine (counties) Knin, Benkovac, Obrovac, Drniš i Gračac.
2. Evacuation is to be conducted (...) according to prepared plans (...) direction Otrić towards Srb and Lapac.
3. For evacuation (...) has to be asked from UNPROFOR CommAND (I think whoever typed this was in a huRRY) with headquarters in Knin.
Knin, August 04th 1995

President of the Republic
Milan Martić

Signed at 17.20 on August 04th 1995 and classified under above code.
  



#47    the L

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 09:36 PM

Many have forgotten about unfair media lynch againstprof. Kresimir Mihajlovic. Its a primary school principal 'Peter Zrinski' which became 'former director' the moment as he in his school put pictures of Generals Gotovina and Markač. Now that is Croatia.
Our school director loose his job because he puts picture of Gotovina. I hope he will get his job back now.

#48    Helen of Annoy

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 10:35 PM

Not so fast. Politics may use military, but military must not use politics. The hierarchy is clear. Pictures of personal choice are hanged at home.
You couldn’t have pictures of generals wanted by Hague hanging in public offices. Period. Not a matter of choice, but order.
You couldn’t refuse international court, it would make you look guilty as hell. Period. Not a matter of choice, but logic.

Now the interesting part:
You could have had generals taking trip to Hague, having a chat in witness status, going back home, like general Stipetić did – and do not even dream of saying a negative word about him! – but if you had certain someone (Šeks, who is looking for Gotovina to meet him so he can explain how he didn’t say what whole nation heard him say and how he wasn’t behind the whole plot that complicated lives of generals and put whole country at risk) so if you had that certain person in very influential position and with shady political history longer than we both combined are old, of course you had problems too. Šeks had more conspirative names back then, in socialism, than average teen has screen names on the Internet today. And if he soon does not prove us different, it sure looks like he has a lot to hide or find scape goats for.

Croatia must not divide to left and right ever again, Croatia must divide to honest and corrupt.
And stop letting the corrupt go away with excuses, after they nearly buried the country for their own personal interests.

Edited by Helen of Annoy, 20 November 2012 - 10:42 PM.

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#49    smurf0852

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 12:00 AM

View Postodas, on 16 November 2012 - 02:18 PM, said:

I know what happened, I have the scars to always remember,never forget and never forgive. God bless Croatia, God bless Bosnia and Hercegovina.
my lasting memory of this conflict is of my nephew who won an award for protecting a bosnian village against a serb death squad (we served over there at the same time 1994-95) unfortunatly he couldnt live with what he saw and took his own life a few years later after abusing alcohol .i really hope with all my heart the region has a lasting peace .

#50    odas

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 02:04 PM

View Postsmurf0852, on 21 November 2012 - 12:00 AM, said:


my lasting memory of this conflict is of my nephew who won an award for protecting a bosnian village against a serb death squad (we served over there at the same time 1994-95) unfortunatly he couldnt live with what he saw and took his own life a few years later after abusing alcohol .i really hope with all my heart the region has a lasting peace .
Sorry to hear that smurf. I heard abot few such stories where peacekeepers took their own life after what they witnessed in croatia and bosnia.

#51    ouija ouija

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 04:47 PM

As a citizen of the UK I am finding these recollections by 'ordinary' citizens of Croatia much more interesting than anything in the media. Thank you for sharing your insights.

Just to let you know, the release of General Gotovina was not in the news over here.

#52    Helen of Annoy

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 04:48 PM

Thank you smurf. I’m truly sorry for your nephew.

Speaking of lasting peace, it’s general opinion in Croatia that this ruling was huge step towards lasting peace, while it’s general opinion in Serbia it was giant step away from it.
How come? Well, the idea of foundations of lasting peace is different in Croatia and in Serbia. While Croatia believes in good relations with all neighbours but also in minding your own business first, Serbia still hasn't changed anything since the '90s.

I’ll quote current Serbian president, Tomislav Nikolić: “Serbia has a plan to unite in friendship former Yugoslavian republics, but that must be done under condition of equality, which is in no way supported by such ruling of Hague court.”
http://danas.net.hr/...la-je-pomirenje

Toma Grobar (Toma the Gravedigger, as Serbs affectionately call him) has a plan. And the plan smells of Yugoslavia. Where was he for the last 20 years?

Should I laugh or cry? Sometimes I hope I’m too paranoid and half of my firm beliefs are actually conspiracies and then Toma pops up, spills the beans and proves it’s not me that’s paranoid, it’s their politics that is chronically insane.
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#53    Helen of Annoy

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 05:17 PM

View Postouija ouija, on 21 November 2012 - 04:47 PM, said:

As a citizen of the UK I am finding these recollections by 'ordinary' citizens of Croatia much more interesting than anything in the media. Thank you for sharing your insights.

Just to let you know, the release of General Gotovina was not in the news over here.

Thank you for noticing us, ouija :D  
I'm sorry it's the horror that draws the attention, there are good things about Croatia and Bosnia too, it's not just blood and guts and ew.
Beautiful nature, friendly people, good food, just don’t drop by during a war, which is approximately every 20 years. We missed one 20 year war cycle, maybe that’s why this last one was so dirty and refused to end.

It’s understandable Gotovina was not in the news, except in Croatia and her neighbourhood, since theoretically the rulings in ICTY cases are strictly about justice and therefore cannot be misused politically. Knowing the world in which we live in, of course every ruling of ICTY has huge political weight.

The missing cases have huge political weight too, but it doesn’t matter. ICTY had no time and resources for going after Serbian generals who bombed the crap out of disarmed Croatia. So be it. As long as they had time to invent 200 metres rule (any projectile that falls 200 metres away from legitimate military target is overuse of artillery) and apply it not on my grandmother’s house but on empty field on the outskirts of Knin.

Politics is dirty always and everywhere, but it seems like it's especially disgusting in this part of the world. Too many times too many crucial facts were turned upside-down to suit the strange interests. ("Strange" as both "weird" and "foreign".)
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#54    the L

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 08:00 PM

Helen I was just wenting there about school director.
I think that we must devide in political thinking eitherway it would be called Partija or Social party.


View PostHelen of Annoy, on 21 November 2012 - 04:48 PM, said:

I’ll quote current Serbian president, Tomislav Nikolić: “Serbia has a plan to unite in friendship former Yugoslavian republics, but that must be done under condition of equality, which is in no way supported by such ruling of Hague court.”


Toma Grobar (Toma the Gravedigger, as Serbs affectionately call him) has a plan. And the plan smells of Yugoslavia. Where was he for the last 20 years?

Should I laugh or cry? Sometimes I hope I’m too paranoid and half of my firm beliefs are actually conspiracies and then Toma pops up, spills the beans and proves it’s not me that’s paranoid, it’s their politics that is chronically insane.

And you should laugh on Toma Grobar or Toma Diploma second nick name due his "education".
Did he thought on Republic Srpska and Serbia?

#55    the L

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 08:01 PM

View Postsmurf0852, on 21 November 2012 - 12:00 AM, said:

my lasting memory of this conflict is of my nephew who won an award for protecting a bosnian village against a serb death squad (we served over there at the same time 1994-95) unfortunatly he couldnt live with what he saw and took his own life a few years later after abusing alcohol .i really hope with all my heart the region has a lasting peace .

Sorry to hear that. I hope all your family is doing well.Take care.

Edited by the L, 22 November 2012 - 08:01 PM.


#56    the L

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 08:39 PM

View Postouija ouija, on 21 November 2012 - 04:47 PM, said:

As a citizen of the UK I am finding these recollections by 'ordinary' citizens of Croatia much more interesting than anything in the media. Thank you for sharing your insights.

Just to let you know, the release of General Gotovina was not in the news over here.


Thank you for info.
If you want I could give you insight about many great things in my country. I when I say many I mean it.
About second part of your post. Well my view is different from Helen. Slightly.
It because we defeated your National football team (England) at Wembley which cause that England failed to qualify for Euro 2008. Joke. I wish cause is redicule.
I think it because we are small and irelevant to UK. But also because English doesnt like us. Im not talking about common people.
Im talking about ruling elite. Why?
1.Simply because we are enemies of your friends. Serbia.Thats the main reason why we have bad relations with France.
2.Because we are friends of your historical enemy-Germany. And Austria. Wait in recent years and Ireland. Plus Vatican. Plus Iceland (hint: banks).
3.Historicly speaking many Croats dont like English because of Bleiburg massacre. British army gave POW to Partisans which killed many citizens.
http://en.wikipedia....g_repatriations
4. Also historicly speaking Isolano Croats were given cruel reputation in 30 years war by English. Were they cruel on English? Now that we can argued. Nothing more or less as anyother in that war. Thats my area of interests so we can discuss about history for hours if you like. Nevertheless Isolano Croats played keyrole in 30 years war. They were elite soldiers and they were in famous battle,climax of 30 years war, Battle of Lutzen 1632,as right and left wing of Imperial army where Gustav Adolph was killed, which change course of war and which force France to join the war at their best. So we were on Chatolic side you on Protestant.
5. Puppet Nazi state by mad man Pavelić in Croatia doesnt look good in eyes of West. But, you must understand that things are not black and white. Croats rebeled in Zagreb against Pavelić.Also I dont  know do you know who was Josip Broz Tito and Partisans? Well Partisan leader Tito was Croat as many others who served in Partisans,
Tito was one of greatest historical person in general. He opossed Stalin. Opossed UK and USA. He was one of founders of Non-Aligned Movement.
http://en.wikipedia....ligned_Movement
The organization was founded in Belgrade in 1961, and was largely the brainchild of Yugoslavia's president, Josip Broz Tito; Indonesia's first president, Sukarno; Egypt's second president, Gamal Abdel Nasser; Ghana's first president Kwame Nkrumah; and India's first prime minister, Jawaharlal Nehru.

Yugoslavia, Egypt, India ...Imagine that. While on Cuba, Soviets operation Anadyr was successfully done.

Edited by the L, 22 November 2012 - 08:51 PM.


#57    Helen of Annoy

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 09:40 PM

View Postthe L, on 22 November 2012 - 08:00 PM, said:

Helen I was just wenting there about school director.
I think that we must devide in political thinking eitherway it would be called Partija or Social party.


Venting is fine, vent on, after all what do I do here but the same :D

I understand why you think it was wrong and overly to fire people for displaying pictures of generals, but I also believe you understand why I think it was wrong to push the idolatry thing in the wrongest moment possible.
Scoring internal political points when there’s the microscopic chance of damaging the foreign politics is not fine. Expressing is fine, protesting is fine, but hindering the most important process ever with childish idolatry is not fine.

We can have different political opinions and preferences, but the matters of survival are above it.
The Homeland war secured our nation’s physical survival, the legal battle secured our political survival. Both concern the whole nation and must not be hogged or misused by any party, as generals themselves hinted. They were too apolitical to spell it out, but the hints were clear enough even for the most backward crowd to get them: no internal politicking around the war or them personally.
Apolitical military, thank god, finally. Sacrificing themselves for the folk instead of sacrificing the folk for them. Finally.




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And you should laugh on Toma Grobar or Toma Diploma second nick name due his "education".
Did he thought on Republic Srpska and Serbia?


No, he had everyone that was trapped in ex-Yu in mind. They want their cosy Serboslavia back, where it was enough to be professional Serb to get everything you need, because saint Serbs are the oldest nation on Earth, Jesus was speaking Serbian and everyone else is genocidal, unaware of their Serbian roots and can repent for not being Serbian enough by serving the Heavenly Folk (Nebeski Narod, I quoted assorted gems of Greater Serbian maniacs).

They also won every war they started, by losing it, which you must admit is a phenomenon, so this anomaly from few days ago is something they do not compute. Some of them obviously had a full-blown meltdown, which is evolving into political soap opera of the century. (Vuk Jeremić, Serbian Foreign Minister, currently president of UN General Assembly is tweeting threats to "international criminals from Hague" and Gotovina's lawyer :lol: )  


They did everything right: had their hegemony and parasitism supported from outside for decades, attacked disarmed opponents, had incompetent, illiterate but psychopath leadership, lost epically, run away, then started moaning about their pains and sufferings, about hidden murderous intentions of those they murdered, sat back and waited for new conglomerate country to be shaped to please them. Because – hey, we are saint Serbs, someone has to start WWIII for you, we deserve it.
And now... it’s not happening. They are starting to panic, because the myth was not confirmed this time. It was not reinvented, as various prosecutors promised it will be. Myth on which everything in Serbia stands, from the politics to their god awful middle-easternish music.

And with myth of Serbs the benevolent hegemons, sent by Serbian speaking god to rule over genocidal Croats, down goes their economy too.
But they shouldn’t be so sad, their Putin will fix that for them. Or won’t, but the fact that this is finally their problem, not mine, feels good beyond belief.



Edit:
You are not going to get a like for your post above, because ouija specified she’s a British citizen, but nowhere she mentioned being English.
And even if she was English, she certainly wasn’t at Bleiburg. We are not that old, young man :D

Edited by Helen of Annoy, 22 November 2012 - 09:51 PM.

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#58    odas

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 05:45 PM

Vuk Jeremic. Hm. Is he not the same guy who is ashamed of the nationality and religion of his maternal grandparents? Bosniaks of the Pozderac family who just received the highest jewish honors posthumly because they saved numerous jews in wwll? Funny how life has its way to kick your butt when least expected. But, then again foot in the mouth is a common exercise by serbian politicians.
Then again this honor was not posted in europe. I realy can not see the reason why, ahmm sarcasm.
Ante, welcome to Sarajevo. Just be careful you never know what smrdska rep could start.

#59    Helen of Annoy

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 06:08 PM

I had no idea Vuk is of Pozderac family. Are those the same Pozderacs whose Hamdija Pozderac was? ...  yep, the same:
   http://www.islambosn...hamdije-lipovae

But the timing was amazing, the way it all completely coincidentally coincided... simply amazing. God works in mysterious ways, that’s the only explanation.

I like this quote the best for some inexplicable reason:

"Elem, moj daleki predak, moj čukundeda, Murat-aga Pozderac, dobri i čestiti vladar Cazinske krajine, jedan od poslednjih aga Otomanskog carstva na Balkanu, imao je običaj da kaže: bujrum, rajo, čini što ti drago, ali plati harač, metni dukat u carske bisage, pa onda serbez, široko ti polje! Imam ja vladarsko iskustvo, genetika je to... Bilo je u familiji diplomata, narodnih heroja, ali ja se uvek vraćam na pretka moga, premudrog krajiškog agu Murata Pozderca, koji je pre sto pedeset godina rođen i ceo život je proveo u islamskoj veri i šerijatu... Eee, da mi je danas jedan takav u vladi Srbije, ne bi mi imali muke ni sa Kosovom ni sa Bosnom. Sve bi bilo naše!", napisao je Jeremić.

“So, my distant ancestor, my great-great-grandpa, Murat-aga Pozderac, good and honest ruler of Cazinska krajina, one of last agas of Ottoman empire in Balkans, had the habit of saying: bujrum, folk, do as you please, but pay harač, put gold coin in imperial sack and then serbez, go as you please! I have that experience of a ruler, that’s genetics... There were diplomats, folk heroes in my family, but I always remember my ancestor, more than wise aga Murat Pozderac of Krajina, who was born 150 years ago and spent his whole life in Islamic faith and sharia... Eeeh, if only I had one like that in Serbian government, we would have no trouble with Kosovo or Bosnia. It would all be ours!” wrote Jeremić.

That explains it all. No, really, it does.

Edited by Helen of Annoy, 23 November 2012 - 06:09 PM.

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#60    odas

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 07:32 PM

Bujrum-welcome
Harac-tax
Serbez-leger, easy
Vuk Jeremic-moron




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