186 replies to this topic

[Star of the Sea]

Bluefinger, on 01 October 2012 - 08:17 PM, said:

I've believed what 2 Thess. 2 said about it (obviously an interpretation Rev. 13's second beast and its demise in Rev. 19.)  The lawless one, will exalt himself above all that is called God and will reveal himself in God's temple, the Church, as God.

Toward the end of the 12th century, the pope (Innocent III) began calling himself the vicar of Christ, standing as a representative of Christ (authoritatively) to rule while Christ is in heaven.  This assertion was practiced when an opposing king begged outside the pope's window in the cold, with no shoes on.  The pope, back then, believed that he had the authority to crown or depose kings.  This would, in a sense, make him a king of kings, a title rightfully claimed by Jesus.

This pope then, with the miraculous help of St. Dominic and St. Francis, convinced many in the Holy Roman Empire that the Roman Church was their only hope of salvation.  When it became evident that the Cathars were still growing, the Office of The Inquisition was instituted to find non-Catholics and judge them according to Canon Law.  Those who refused were put to death.  Those who converted were given back their property (sometimes) and kept a close eye on.

The mark of the beast is evidently the exercise of state religion under impulse of persecution.



Perhaps it isn't one man, but one man's title.  And the prophecy of St. Malachy shows that Rome will be destroyed in the end, and Jesus will judge.  Paired with Revelation 14, 16, 17, 18, and 19, Jesus will destroy the authority of beast, the false prophet, and the dragon.  In other words, all kingdoms will be put under Christ's authority.

Early Christians evidently believed this literally, as do I.

Hi Blue,

There was more to Innocent III than just trying to convince the Roman Empire of the Papacy. The Muslim recapture of Jerusalem in 1187 was to him a divine judgment on the moral lapses of Christian princes. He was also determined to protect what he called "the liberty of the Church" from inroads by secular princes. But I guess that's another thread to discuss!

Edited by Star of the Sea, 04 October 2012 - 10:45 PM.

[Bluefinger]

Star of the Sea, on 04 October 2012 - 10:43 PM, said:

Hi Blue,

There was more to Innocent III than just trying to convince the Roman Empire of the Papacy. The Muslim recapture of Jerusalem in 1187 was to him a divine judgment on the moral lapses of Christian princes. He was also determined to protect what he called "the liberty of the Church" from inroads by secular princes. But I guess that's another thread to discuss!

Definitely a valid point.  I believe that is highly important to the discussion though.  Innocent III laid the finishing touches on what was supposedly the end of the Investiture Controversy (where the Church of Rome, after the embarrasing rule of harlots, sought to wrestle its property and priests from the hands of the government) by establishing the canon law and using the Donation of Constantine (forgery?) to assert his authority.  

So, 'the liberty of the Church' was a continuing controversy from two centuries ago.  The pope, however, had it in mind to rule the empire.  The kings knew that two centuries ago when they saw the increasing influence that the bishop of Rome had among the people.  Innocent III secured the financial backing of the Roman Church, the main financial income for the Holy Roman Empire, pretty much allowing him to do whatever he wanted.  Fast-forward a century, a Boniface VIII is banking on one of the largest religious scam - The Roman Jubilee.  The papacy was rolling in dough after that.  He would proclaim through his Bull of 1302, Unam Sanctam, it is "absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman pontiff."  Seriously, after making that much money, can you imagine if everyone tithed to the Roman Church?  

Incidently, the kings of France and England weren't jiving with it and gave him the boot, starting the 'Babylonian Captivity of the Church,' where the Church was moved to Avignon, France for a good 70 years or so.  During that time Europe would be politically and socially transformed by the Great Famine of 1315 and the deadly bubonic plague dubbed 'The Black Death.'

100 years of Papal Supremacy and the most that happened was a few administrators in the Church loaded their pockets.  I'm a Christian, and I'm not a fan of slandering the Church.  But I want to point out the deeds of these individuals so that their blasphemy of the truth does not convince others that their way was a true representation of Christ's teachings.  They were something entirely different.  And when you put Germanic soldiers in the office of pope, like was the case with Pope Nicholas I.

[joc]

Shabd Mystic, on 04 October 2012 - 10:05 PM, said:

Well, I'm sure that the scientific and medical community will want to know that you have redefined "death" to include the presence of rigamortis. Thousands of doctors will want to stop filing false death certificates. And the hundreds of scientific papers that study the thousands of people who have died and been revived and had "near death" experiences will need to be thrown out since "joc" has rendered them invalid. You are a wealth of knowledge and information. Thanks for sharing your "expertise."  

I don't care what you say or what 'scientists' or doctors say.  Dead is dead.  End of ******* story...
!

[Shabd Mystic]

joc, on 05 October 2012 - 02:56 AM, said:

I don't care what you say or what 'scientists' or doctors say.  Dead is dead.  End of ******* story...
!

I know you don't care about what anyone says unless you agree with it but that will probably change someday when you find that they won't let you graduate from high school if you just choose to ignore "facts" just because you don't like them.  

[Shabd Mystic]

"Why crawl with belief when with a little more effort  you can soar by knowing?" ~ Shantidasa

[Etu Malku]

joc, on 05 October 2012 - 02:56 AM, said:

I don't care what you say or what 'scientists' or doctors say.  Dead is dead.  End of ******* story...
!

Not true, given the fact that everything in the universe is made of energy and energy cannot be destroyed, my opinion is that nothing really "ends" it only transforms to something else, Principles of the objective universe affect everything equally.

[joc]

Etu Malku, on 05 October 2012 - 01:46 PM, said:

Not true, given the fact that everything in the universe is made of energy and energy cannot be destroyed, my opinion is that nothing really "ends" it only transforms to something else, Principles of the objective universe affect everything equally.

The Energy doesn't end.  When you burn a log for instance.  The tree is dead...the wood of the tree is transformed into smoke, ashes, heat, wind, etc.  But the tree itself...the 'awareness' if you will of the tree is changed as well.  To what?  Who knows?  But what Shabd Mystic is saying is that dead is not dead.  BS.  If you 'come back' then you weren't really dead to begin with.  That's all I'm saying.  The Energy that has manifested itself as 'awareness' of the tree...the Energy that has manifested itself as 'awareness' of the Human Being...That Energy is unchanged...but the wood of the tree has changed...the flexibility of the body has changed...the awareness has also changed...Energy is constantly manifesting and remanifesting itself.
I guess you could 'nutshell' what I believe in this way:  The only thing that exists is Energy.  Energy is infinite and it manifests itself in an infinite number of forms, on an infinite number of levels, for an infinite number of reasons.  Some call this Energy God.  I just refer to it as Infinite Energy.  But dead is indeed dead.  Nothing dead has ever come back to life...never...ever...and never, ever will.  Why do you think Energy manifests itself in a living body anyway?  Because it is the only way that Life can exist.  Shabd Mystic can pretend that he and others have actually died...but their experiences during that time are due to lack of oxygen, etc.  That is because Life must be housed in a living body...That is what life is...a living body...In short:  Life is necessary for our 'awareness' to exist.

Edited by joc, 05 October 2012 - 09:14 PM.

[Etu Malku]

joc, on 05 October 2012 - 09:12 PM, said:

The Energy doesn't end.  When you burn a log for instance.  The tree is dead...the wood of the tree is transformed into smoke, ashes, heat, wind, etc.  But the tree itself...the 'awareness' if you will of the tree is changed as well.  To what?  Who knows?  But what Shabd Mystic is saying is that dead is not dead.  BS.  If you 'come back' then you weren't really dead to begin with.  That's all I'm saying.  The Energy that has manifested itself as 'awareness' of the tree...the Energy that has manifested itself as 'awareness' of the Human Being...That Energy is unchanged...but the wood of the tree has changed...the flexibility of the body has changed...the awareness has also changed...Energy is constantly manifesting and remanifesting itself.
I guess you could 'nutshell' what I believe in this way:  The only thing that exists is Energy.  Energy is infinite and it manifests itself in an infinite number of forms, on an infinite number of levels, for an infinite number of reasons.  Some call this Energy God.  I just refer to it as Infinite Energy.  But dead is indeed dead.  Nothing dead has ever come back to life...never...ever...and never, ever will.  Why do you think Energy manifests itself in a living body anyway?  Because it is the only way that Life can exist.  Shabd Mystic can pretend that he and others have actually died...but their experiences during that time are due to lack of oxygen, etc.  That is because Life must be housed in a living body...That is what life is...a living body...In short:  Life is necessary for our 'awareness' to exist.

Gotcha man . . . and agree, reminds me of how different "we" are than everything else, this consciousness/awareness aspect of human beings.

[Harlequin Dreamer]

I think we all have the number of the beast in some way or another.  

[Shabd Mystic]

Harlequin Dreamer, on 05 October 2012 - 10:56 PM, said:

I think we all have the number of the beast in some way or another.  

I live in the 32666 zip code. Does that count?  

[Star of the Sea]

Bluefinger, on 05 October 2012 - 02:22 AM, said:

Definitely a valid point.  I believe that is highly important to the discussion though.  Innocent III laid the finishing touches on what was supposedly the end of the Investiture Controversy (where the Church of Rome, after the embarrassing rule of harlots, sought to wrestle its property and priests from the hands of the government) by establishing the canon law and using the Donation of Constantine (forgery?) to assert his authority.  

So, 'the liberty of the Church' was a continuing controversy from two centuries ago.  The pope, however, had it in mind to rule the empire.  The kings knew that two centuries ago when they saw the increasing influence that the bishop of Rome had among the people.  Innocent III secured the financial backing of the Roman Church, the main financial income for the Holy Roman Empire, pretty much allowing him to do whatever he wanted.  Fast-forward a century, a Boniface VIII is banking on one of the largest religious scam - The Roman Jubilee.  The papacy was rolling in dough after that.  He would proclaim through his Bull of 1302, Unam Sanctam, it is "absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman pontiff."  Seriously, after making that much money, can you imagine if everyone tithed to the Roman Church?  

Accidentally, the kings of France and England weren't jiving with it and gave him the boot, starting the 'Babylonian Captivity of the Church,' where the Church was moved to Avignon, France for a good 70 years or so.  During that time Europe would be politically and socially transformed by the Great Famine of 1315 and the deadly bubonic plague dubbed 'The Black Death.'

100 years of Papal Supremacy and the most that happened was a few administrators in the Church loaded their pockets.  I'm a Christian, and I'm not a fan of slandering the Church.  But I want to point out the deeds of these individuals so that their blasphemy of the truth does not convince others that their way was a true representation of Christ's teachings.  They were something entirely different.  And when you put Germanic soldiers in the office of pope, like was the case with Pope Nicholas I.

Hi Blue,

He did indeed line the pockets of the Church..  but his strengths were his fight against heresy. I think he may now be paying for his deeds and is believed to be in purgatory on the very day he died. He is said to have appeared to St. Lutgarda in her monastery at Aywiers in Brabant. Engulfed in flames, he declared to her, “I am Pope Innocent”. He continued to explain that he was in purgatory for three faults which had caused him to arrive in this state. Innocent asked St. Lutgarda to come to his assistance, saying, “Alas! It is terrible; and will last for centuries if you do not come to my assistance. In the name of Mary, who has obtained for me the favour of appealing to you, help me!” At that moment he disappeared and St. Lutgarda informed her sisters of what she had seen.^[27]

[Star of the Sea]

Star of the Sea, on 06 October 2012 - 09:03 PM, said:

Hi Blue,

He did indeed line the pockets of the Church..  but his strengths were* his fight against heresy. I think he may now be paying for his deeds and is believed to be in purgatory on the very day he died. He is said to have appeared to St. Lutgarda in her monastery at Aywiers in Brabant. Engulfed in flames, he declared to her, “I am Pope Innocent”. He continued to explain that he was in purgatory for three faults which had caused him to arrive in this state. Innocent asked St. Lutgarda to come to his assistance, saying, “Alas! It is terrible; and will last for centuries if you do not come to my assistance. In the name of Mary, who has obtained for me the favour of appealing to you, help me!” At that moment he disappeared and St. Lutgarda informed her sisters of what she had seen.^[27]

Oops just noticed grammar error and way too late to edit  "was his fight"*

Edited by Star of the Sea, 07 October 2012 - 08:50 PM.

[jake1967]

To me..accepting the MOTB would be extremely personal to anyone involved in accepting it. Let's suppose a scenario exists in which accepting the MOTB would decide whether your child or loved one would be killed (or worse) in front of you.  Or perhaps they needed medical treatment or food to simply survive.  Imagine what you would do at that time. Would you accept this mark in order  to spare your child or loved one? Or would you allow your child to be sacrificied in order to follow your beliefs? I believe Abraham in the Bible was also presented with this dillema.  Christians throughout the world have known such persecutions..even today. They are persecuted for a belief. Hated..and for what? Religious wars have been fought for thousands of years...men killing each other over 'religious' beliefs. A war of opinions and beliefs...'My god is greater than yours!..you are wrong so you must die!'..type of thinking. Look at Palestine and Isreal.  Love, according to the Bible, is the Law. Love God with all your heart, soul, and mind. If mankind were to follow that one little law...and actually love God and one another..there would be no need for the MOFTB.  But we, mankind, we worship our power, greed, money, and ourselves in order to appear successful..but to whom?  To the definitions of success written by 'society' ?
Society says you must have x amount of dollars..or x amount of education or drive x type of car to have some kind of worldly prestige! Why? Because we are taught that success in life is based on material possesions or our 'knowledge' and our educational accomplishments..these are worldly things. The  topic of this thread is more spiritual in nature in my opinion. If, according to prophecy, you cannot buy or sell without this mark then  that makes all of your worldly accomplishments worthless. So no matter what your 'rank' in society...without this mark..you can't feed yourself or your family. At least not in the ways you used to.

Man is not only flesh and blood..but spirit as well..and we forget..because we get so wrapped up in all our electronic devices and toys..we forget what we are and why we are.  In my opinion. You are, obviously, free to express your own- Without judgement on my part

So one can say, at this time, NO I will not accept the MOTB. But until one is faced with situations that are far more horrible than those listed above.(hypotheticaly) only then could a man truly test his/her beliefs and know his/her choice and truly know him/her self. In the US..you are already numbered. Your SS number..your DL...try getting a good job without either! ...the change could be so subtle that you will willingly go along.  People are so easily mislead....just ask the politicians and news outlets who's interests they truly serve..the good of the people..or that of themselves??

[joc]

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 03:56 AM
Shabd Mystic, on 04 October 2012 - 11:05 PM, said:

Well, I'm sure that the scientific and medical community will want to know that you have redefined "death" to include the presence of rigamortis. Thousands of doctors will want to stop filing false death certificates. And the hundreds of scientific papers that study the thousands of people who have died and been revived and had "near death" experiences will need to be thrown out since "joc" has rendered them invalid. You are a wealth of knowledge and information. Thanks for sharing your "expertise."  

I don't care what you say or what 'scientists' or doctors say.  Dead is dead.  End of ******* story...

Shabad Mystic,
While I still think dead is dead...I will modifiy the quote above to say that I do care what you and others say.  I have never experienced anything like what you apparently have.  I just read an article about a neuro-surgeon who beleived as I do...until he experienced something while in a coma.  Here is that article if you want to read it.

[Shabd Mystic]

joc, on 10 October 2012 - 02:44 AM, said:

Shabad Mystic,
While I still think dead is dead...I will modifiy the quote above to say that I do care what you and others say.  I have never experienced anything like what you apparently have.  I just read an article about a neuro-surgeon who beleived as I do...until he experienced something while in a coma.  Here is that article if you want to read it.

I started a thread on this very topic about an hour ago. I have to say that i am incredibly impressed by your post. The one thing I very rarely ever find on any message board, particularly this one, is an open mind. Most people come here just wanting to spout off their own beliefs. Very few are interested in challenging those beliefs. Thanks so much for posting this! I really appreciate it.

By the way, that thread is here:

http://www.unexplain...howtopic=235545

Also, as I mentioned in that thread, here is a link to a PDF on near-death experiences that blows away what that doctor says. This is much more involved and more widely researched. It starts with an abstract but don't let that influence you because that part isn't written to be engaging. The entire paper though is a GREAT read.

http://spiritualscie...ty.79194349.pdf

Edited by Shabd Mystic, 10 October 2012 - 03:56 AM.