Serial Killer of the Week: Carl Panzram

[H.H. Holmes]

Ok, on request of JonathonVonErich I am going to start a serial killer of the week thread. Hopefully, I can bring some of them up that not many people have known about, which brings me to Carl Panzram. I first read about Carl Panzram in a book called "A Criminal History of Mankind" by Colin Wilson. Although extremely vicious and cold-hearted, the man wrote a memoire of his crimes that can give insight into a serial killer's psyche like no other. Panzram detailed all of his horrible crimes in his memoire written while in prison, which is still studied today by criminologist. Panzram detailed crimes such as child rape, arson, mass murder, and other crimes without compassion or remorse. In his writings, one gets a sense of pure evil because he acknowledges how evil his actions were and makes no excuses for it.

Panzram's past also gives insight into how such a remorseless, cruel outlook on life can form. He was repeatedly raped and sodomized in his childhood by force, which he credits for the development of his cold-heartedness. Here is an account of his rape at the hands of vagabonds in railway car when he was still a child:

"But first they wanted me to do a little something for them," Panzram wrote years later. He was gang-raped by all four men. "I cried, begged and pleaded for mercy, pity and sympathy, but nothing I could say or do could sway them from their purpose!"

I will transcribe some of his memoire later on today when I have enough time from the book. However, I wouldn't read it unless you have a very hard stomach for violence and cruelty.

Link on Panzram 1

Link on Panzram 2

[JonathanVonErich]

Thank you HHH, hope the idea of this topic will catch on...

Great stuff, i knew nothing about this killer...Thank you and can't wait to read the memoire, very fascinating case...the Serial Killer of the Week topic is starting very strong!

[~TheBigK~]

I'll read more from the links when I get the chance but from what I skimmed he sounded pretty dang brutal.

I've always been interested in serial killers but only his name sounds familiar to me. I used to want to be a criminal psychologist actually so kudos on finding one that I didn't know anything about . I'm all for this thread though, I think it's a neat idea.

[H.H. Holmes]

Thanks, I'm going to try to get this thread going.

I have some transcripts from his memoires that he wrote in prison, but I can't post the whole thing for legal reasons. The book was actually not published until forty-years after it was written because of the brutal nature of the content. So, I will write out some paragraphs, word-for-word, from the book.

One part of the book dealt with his violence after his rape by four hobos on a train. He took revenge on anyone he could by raping them. From the Panzram transcript:

"...whenever I met [a hobo] who wasn't too rusty looking I would make him raise his hands and drop his pants. I wasn't very particular either. I rode them old and young, tall and short, white and black."

One time, he got caught raping a hobo by a railway worker. Panzram drew a revolver and proceeded to rape the railway worker, then made the other hobos do the same to him. This, to me and criminologists, demonstrates his will to exert his power at any chance, no matter how brutal.

He spent some time in jail for theft and arson, then escaped. After that, he stole a yacht and offered some seamen a job on the boat. When on the boat, he would rape them, kill them, and throw their bodies out to sea. Panzram reached West Africa looking to get employed by a petrol company, where he later lost the job for committing sodomy on a waiter. He looked for help from the U.S. consul, but was refused. Shortly after the refusal, he sat down at a park to think about things. What happened next is very descriptive and forgive the racist language, it is his words, not mine.

"While I was sitting there, a little ****** boy about eleven or twelve years came bumming around. He was looking for something. He found it too. I took him to a gravel pit a quater of a mile from the main camp... I left him there, but first I committed sodomy on him and then killed him. His brains were coming out of his ears when I left him and he will never be any deader..."

After that incident, he committed an act of mass murder down the coast of West Africa. From the transcript and, again, forgive me for the very offensive language, his words, not mine.

"Then I went to town, bought a ticket on the Belgian steamer to Lobito Bay down the coast. There I hired a canoe and six ******* and went out hunting in the bay and backwaters. I was looking for crocodiles. I found them, plenty. They were all hungry. I fed them. I shot all six of those ******* and dumped 'em in. The crocks done the rest. I stole their canoe and went back to town, tied the canoe to a dock, and that night someone stole the canoe from me."

Alright, I'll type more from the book later, but it is somewhat time-consuming. However, I think from these few transcripts that you can get an idea of what kind of person Panzram was.

Edited September 10, 2010 by H.H. Holmes

[~TheBigK~]

"While I was sitting there, a little ****** boy about eleven or twelve years came bumming around. He was looking for something. He found it too. I took him to a gravel pit a quater of a mile from the main camp... I left him there, but first I committed sodomy on him and then killed him. His brains were coming out of his ears when I left him and he will never be any deader..."

Ugh, how cheerful. As awful as it is when this kind of thing happens to adults, I absolutely hate hearing about it with kids. This guy seems like he was quite the piece of work.

[JonathanVonErich]

Yeah everytime you have sodomy and kill in the same sentence i think it's fait to say that the guy was a sick human being....

Thanks, great job HHH.

Just hope it won't be just me and K who will post our opinions or toughts here...Hope this topic will catch on with the rest of the big UM family.

[The Silver Thong]

Cool thread. Never heard of this Panzram guy before but he is one bad a$$ dude. Read most of it and ya you were lucky if this guy didn't cross your path. He liked sailors, ever been to sea Billy?

[mean_jean]

Oh wow thank you so much for the info on Panzram! I too am fascinated by serial killers and I know Carl Panzram well! Another one that is interesting is Edmund Kemper, he went to a shrink appt. with a woman's head in his trunk! he had killed her before going to the appt. The shrink at that appt. said he was fine!!

[JonathanVonErich]

Kemper was a sexual sadist who killed 8 women, including his mother i think if my memory is exact...another very interesting and very sick man.

[Enoonmai]

Carl was an extremely articulate serial killer, he wrote his autobiography on his last stay at Leavenworth. I wonder what they called him back in that time? Serial killer was coined to describe old Teddy boy!

I like his complete denial of humanity. What's more amazing, he didn't exhibit the triad that most serial killers manifest. Zoosadism, arson, and bedwetting into the teen years.

If you want to check out the craziest of the bunch, google Richard Trenton Chase, one sick mofo!

[H.H. Holmes]

Carl was an extremely articulate serial killer, he wrote his autobiography on his last stay at Leavenworth. I wonder what they called him back in that time? Serial killer was coined to describe old Teddy boy!

I like his complete denial of humanity. What's more amazing, he didn't exhibit the triad that most serial killers manifest. Zoosadism, arson, and bedwetting into the teen years.

You are right, he was articulate for a man so brutal and savage. Panzram just simply hated humanity in all it's forms. He was a dominant individual who was so hard headed that the hundreds of savage beatings he took in prisons did nothing but strengthen his hatred.

One of the most revealing passages from his memoires is the introductory pages.

From the manuscripts, Killer, a Journal of Murder published in 1970.

"If any man was a habitual criminal, I am one. In my life time I have broken every law that was ever made by both God and man. If either had made any more, I should very cheerfully have broken them also. The mere fact that I have done these things is quite sufficient for the average person. Very few people consider it worthwhile to wonder why I am what I am and do what I do. All that they think necessary to do is to catch me, try me, convict me, and send me to prison for a few years, make life miserable for me while in prison and turn me loose again...If someone had a young tiger cub in a cage and then mistreated it until it got savage and bloodthirsty and then turned it loose on the rest of the world...there would be a hell of a roar. But if some people do the same thing to other people, then the world is surprised, shocked and offended because they get robbed, raped, and killed. They done it to me and then don't like it when I give them the same dose they gave me."

While I don't agree with his actions, I do agree with the premise of the argument above. Violence begets more violence. Cruelty will always breed more cruelty. This is why I am against the torture or horrible treatment of even the most despicable human beings, because it just causes a vicious cycle that won't stop until someone dies.

Even after writing his reflective memoire, he was still as hard-headed as he ever was. He told the judge and jury at the trial this following statement.

"While you were trying me here, I was trying all of you too. I've found you guilty. Some of you, I've already executed. If I live, I'll execute some more of you. I hate the whole human race."

Panzram held all of humanity liable for the crimes and cruelty committed against himself. He felt anytime that he showed any sympathy or empathy that it was a weakness that others would pray on, as demonstrated to himself by past experiences. Panzram's main fault in reasoning was looking at his crimes as attempts at revenge against society, which he held responsible for all the evil in the world. He failed to realize that a society is comprised of individual persons, not an evil group with the same movtives.

Another interesting fact about Panzram is his intelligence. He had read almost all the literature on prisoner reformation and read philosophy, including Kant and Schopenhauer. He had the potential to do much more with his life, but his feelings of persecution by society led him into a type of suicide.

Edited September 10, 2010 by H.H. Holmes

[~TheBigK~]

Carl was an extremely articulate serial killer, he wrote his autobiography on his last stay at Leavenworth.

It seems that many serial killers are articulate and intelligent.

While I don't agree with his actions, I do agree with the premise of the argument above. Violence begets more violence. Cruelty will always breed more cruelty. This is why I am against the torture or horrible treatment of even the most despicable human beings, because it just causes a vicious cycle that won't stop until someone dies.

Violence definitely begets more violence. If you suffer abuse or anything like he did when he was younger, how can it really surprise anyone that they'd grow up to do awful things? Obviously that doesn't happen to everyone who goes through something traumatic but you can't expect it to not cause violence in some individuals as they grow up.

Anyone ever watch the show Most Evil? It had a scale for different acts of crime and rated how bad they were. I thought it was very interesting but I do recall one episode discussing the theory that 3 things combined in childhood are a recipe for becoming a serial killer. I tried to find something about it online but to no avail. I can't remember the 3 things exactly but I know abuse, and head trauma were two of them. Either way here's a link about the show for anyone who's interested. It shows the scale.

Most Evil

Edited September 10, 2010 by ~TheBigK~

[mean_jean]

Albert Fish always has scared the crap out of me! Serial killers always have a fetish but Fish is the only one that had all the fetishes, he was one mesed up guy!

[UltraThunderMan]

Panzram, the man too evil to live. Besides for his general savagery, nothing special about him though. Although his case is fascinating from a Nature vs. Nurture perspective.

[kapsha]

It seems that many serial killers are articulate and intelligent.

Violence definitely begets more violence. If you suffer abuse or anything like he did when he was younger, how can it really surprise anyone that they'd grow up to do awful things? Obviously that doesn't happen to everyone who goes through something traumatic but you can't expect it to not cause violence in some individuals as they grow up.

Anyone ever watch the show Most Evil? I love that show!

It had a scale for different acts of crime and rated how bad they were. I thought it was very interesting but I do recall one episode discussing the theory that 3 things combined in childhood are a recipe for becoming a serial killer. I tried to find something about it online but to no avail. I can't remember the 3 things exactly but I know abuse, and head trauma were two of them. Either way here's a link about the show for anyone who's interested. It shows the scale.

Most Evil

[Eldorado]

I read Killer: A Journal Of Murder a few years ago.

It is shocking, but I took many of his boasts with a pinch of salt. And that's what they are; boasts.

There is no remorse, no pleas for forgiveness or understanding and the words are an interesting insight into the mind of an obvious psychopath.

[Rocketgirl33]

I really like this thread. I have been studying serial killers for many years now and have many of the known and not so known in my personal data banks. I will admit though I have never heard of Carl Panzram. It is kinda sad if you really think about it, how awefull that he suffered as he did as a child. He never really had a chance to be "normal" and I agree with the statements that evil begets evil. When you are raised from birth to know that every human hand that touches you brings you pain and hatred, you don't stand a chance to have any kind of "normal" life. Very sad, but on the other hand I think that all serial killers and any really bad bad people in our prison system today should write their stories so that they can be more understood. We tend to hate them for their crimes but refuse to admit how they became the criminals they are today. I have been really looking at the building blocks of the serial killer and their origins are so very sad. Most will make your heart break. There are some that are just pure evil, but really most are made that way by the very people who should have been there to protect them and teach them.

I would like to know if that book with his memoire's can be purchased in english? And where? I would like to have it to read the whole book. I have a few relitivly unknowns if you like I will pm you a few later. Keep this thread up I like it and looks like others do to. Thanks,

Rocketgirl

[~TheBigK~]

Very sad, but on the other hand I think that all serial killers and any really bad bad people in our prison system today should write their stories so that they can be more understood. We tend to hate them for their crimes but refuse to admit how they became the criminals they are today. I have been really looking at the building blocks of the serial killer and their origins are so very sad. Most will make your heart break. There are some that are just pure evil, but really most are made that way by the very people who should have been there to protect them and teach them.

Yeah, they may do disgusting and atrocious things but I'm still interested in how they got that way or if something just snapped. I think it could be beneficial in studying them also because it might help us to detect early warning signs, like hurting/torturing animals, that whole thing. Get them the help they need especially if abuse is involved and they might grow up alright. I'm sure it wouldn't work for all cases but some are better than none.

[Eldorado]

I would like to know if that book with his memoire's can be purchased in english? And where? I would like to have it to read the whole book. I have a few relitivly unknowns if you like I will pm you a few later. Keep this thread up I like it and looks like others do to. Thanks,

Rocketgirl

I bought the book from Amazon, Rocketgirl. (gave to my friend to read and he died before I got it back)

Would imagine eBay has it too. Maybe even your local library.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Panzram-Journal-Thomas-E-Gaddis/dp/1878923145/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1284310369&sr=1-1

The paperback is called "Panzram: A Journal of Murder".

It's the movie thats called "Killer: A Journal of Murder", I think.

Edited September 12, 2010 by Eldorado

[Rocketgirl33]

I bought the book from Amazon, Rocketgirl. (gave to my friend to read and he died before I got it back)

Would imagine eBay has it too. Maybe even your local library.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Panzram-Journal-Thomas-E-Gaddis/dp/1878923145/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1284310369&sr=1-1

The paperback is called "Panzram: A Journal of Murder".

It's the movie thats called "Killer: A Journal of Murder", I think.

Thanks, I found the movie everywhere, it looks like a good movie with James Wood. The book is what I really want. Thanks for the info and as soon as I have time I will order it.

Rocketgirl

[Eldorado]

Thanks, I found the movie everywhere, it looks like a good movie with James Wood. The book is what I really want. Thanks for the info and as soon as I have time I will order it.

Rocketgirl

You in the US?

http://www.amazon.com/Panzram-Journal-Murder-Thomas-Gaddis/dp/1878923145/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1284672790&sr=1-1

[psychoanalysis]

Im sorry to say that i havent been on the site for quite some time due to moving too uni, but as usual H.H you always give me a warm welcome with a beautiful thread. Thanks im going to read this more in deph and the articles/book

[Rocketgirl33]

You in the US?

http://www.amazon.com/Panzram-Journal-Murder-Thomas-Gaddis/dp/1878923145/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1284672790&sr=1-1

Yes, Washington State.

RG

[maca02]

:tu:Book recomend, the evil that men do, by Brian Masters http://www.rbooks.co.uk/product.aspx?id=0552143073, very interesting read

Edited September 19, 2010 by maca 01

[cluey]

Carl Panzram.....this is inserts from the book i have called *SERIAL KILLERS*...by Brian Innes....

carl Pazram was unusual,even among serial killers,in that he never expressed the slightest regret for his actions.

On death row,his greatest fear was that *do-gooders*might manage to get his execution commuted to life imprisonment.he wrote.

'I wish you all had one neck,and i had my hands on it'..................

if that's not screwed up enough for the best of us..........wait till i insert more crazy knowledge for your growing brains to envelope .......

Edited September 19, 2010 by cluey