40 replies to this topic

[Mr Walker]

To be honest, while i appreciate the concerns of certain people, mostly women; the argument about the dangers of vaccines is based on about as much science as the argument for creationism.

Many of the popular websites tell out right lies and non truths. The best present only one side of the argument. And even where there is some danger, it is colossaly outweighed by the dangers of disease to children. In Australia there has been been some debate about prosecuting the authors of such websites for endangering public health programmes and putting childrens' lives at risk through lies and emotive propaganda.

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

I think the "you right to swing your fist stops at my right not o get punched" principle needs to be applied here. Feel free not to vaccinate your children but when that right threatens my child thrn yourfreedom stops being free. The price may be a life, is it worth it?

[ShadowSot]

Mr Right Wing, on 04 July 2012 - 05:29 PM, said:

If a person dies tomorrow from mumps then thats a bad thing and we sympathise with the parents.

If we vaccinate against mumps sure it reduces deaths from the disease. However it literally generates 1000's of austism cases, gives many kids brain damage and significantly increases cancer. To make matters worse those that would have died from mumps now pass their genes onto the next generation.

A few centuries latter we find a large percentage of the population dependant on vaccinations for their survival. When the break comes you end up with ten million dead instead of 5000. You do the sums and tell me which is best.

Vaccines require a healthy immune system. Part of the push to vaccinate is due to people who's immune system does not support this risk. And these people will always be around.
If a new pandemic appears it really doesn't matter if you've been vaccinated or not. New pandemic attack your immune system in a way it's unfamiliar to. It's why the flu is so dangerous. In the past it's mutate into forms that were incredibly deadly, like the Spanish Flu. Even if you've been exposed to the flu previously your immune system is unable to cope with the newer mutations.

Also, MMR has never contained mercury. Thimerosal, a form of preservative that has never been present in vaccines in general in any notable amount (unless there was a problem at the company while the doses were produced) has no link to autism.
In fact, mercury poisoning and autism have different attributes.

And no link has been established between autism and vaccines in any case. In Japan a large study was done between children who had been vaccinate and those who were not. Autism rates remained the same in both groups. Which has stayed the same on similar studies conducted in Denmark.

And you're survival of the fittest mentality fails as well. These diseases have been with us for thousands of years, and infect people regardless of health. The only ways we've found to fight them have been immunization, smallpox was wiped out completly, while polio has been limited to mostly third world nations.
Though with herd immunity breaking down in the US I fear we'll soon start seeing it again here as well.

And to your first point in the thread. Vaccines have never used antibodies from animals. Vaccines have used attenuated viruses, where the virus has been weakened by culturing it in animals are cell cultures from animals, forcing the virus to adapt to the animal cells over several generations and weakening it to the point it's no longer virulent to humans, but still initiates an immune response from your system. many vaccines are now done using a killed virus, where the virus was cultured and then killed with formaldehyde. The final vaccine does still contain some formaldehyde, but far below what your body produces through cell respiration. These killed viruses are still enough to produce the desired immune response from your system without you getting sick.
  Without your immune system, vaccines would be worthless.
Now, that's not to say that vaccines are completely safe, they aren't. However the risk between the disease and the vaccine are not equal, the vaccines are much safer than the multitude of diseases we are vaccinated against.
Interestingly, I did read an article recently where the immune system of vaccinated children versus unvaccinated children was slightly weaker. However this was related to people with vaccinated children be less likely to let their children "play in the dirt" as it were.
Basically, the idea was get your kids vaccinated, and make sure they eat healthy and play outside and do the things kids should do, and they'll be fine.



And now for the topic of the OP. MajicJax, have you read Sean Faircloth's book The Attack of the Theocrats ? One of the subjects he spends time on is how these exemptions are abused.
He offered two examples. one being how religious institutions can offer a child care service, but not be held to any standards. (My own state of Florida has it expressly put into the law that a Child care facility run by a church is free from the restrictions and regulations usually placed on a childcare facility.)
    This has lead to many things such as children not being cared for, not being provided the medicine they need or having medicine left out on counters and such where children can get to them, and to to the recent story that was shared her about the child that drowned in a Baptismal font at a church.
His other example were mega churches, where the "preachers" are able to own property worth several thousands of dollars and pull down millions of dollars without any taxes taxes, and with taxes paying for their housing.

And hey, if this was open to everyoneI wouldn't have such a problem with it, but since this funding is being pulled away from museums and libraries and schools to fund this stuff, I take issue with it.

[Seeker79]

Wearer of Hats, on 07 July 2012 - 04:28 AM, said:

I think the "you right to swing your fist stops at my right not o get punched" principle needs to be applied here. Feel free not to vaccinate your children but when that right threatens my child thrn yourfreedom stops being free. The price may be a life, is it worth it?

Or my child's autism or retardation, or right to choose what's right for their children, and yes even death or quality of life, or education. My what tangled webs we weive.

Im playing a bit of devils advocate here all my kids are vaccinated totally.  But I do not like fear mongrring on small statistics. Im convinced, because I know a few things about statistics, that vaccinations do affect a small percentage of kids negatively. It's perfectly reasonable to assume bell curve activity. I'll take that risk for my kids...... But I want the right to do it. It does not belong in your hands. I can choose not to send my kids to school ( maybe) but so can you. We meet at a place and like all of our ancestors before us we take a certain amount of risks In that meeting, if you are worried about me infecting you, don't show up. Don't start down the path of mitigating tiny statistics for your own satisfaction of safety. If we are going to go that route then..,, hell I'll gurantee you that more kids are hit by cars (in modern societies) from their parents being late for bringing their kids to school than any kids infected by unvaccinated kids. So let's mitigate the risk aswell. No parents are allowed to drive their kids to school because it will result in the injury and death of a few.  Let's not put stairs at schools because a few kids over the lifetime of the school will fall down them and have massive head injuries ( I know I once administered first aid to a kid having a seizure who hit his head falling down stairs) never seen a life threatening situation that started from an unvaccinated kid. What about the pedifiles that find their way as teachers, yes twice In my community in the last ten years.. What now? They were both men. Forbid men from being teachers? I'll make a case right now that far more men will severely hurt children in the future as teachers in public schools than will ever an unvaccinated child harm another. Conclusion.... Men should not be teachers?!?!?!?

Im sorry, I know the dangers of unvaccinated children ( tiny... At least in modern communities). But in the name of freedom ...... Im not willing to infringe on spiritual belies given the tiny risk. Just like I am unwilling to tell parents they can't drive their kids to school which bears a far greater risk to me and my child, and my other child I have to take with me. ( believe me. I have dodged a few patents eager to avoid the late slip)

Modern focus on mitigating tiny risks and searching for those responsible has turned into a slippery slope and numerouse witch hunts and rules, at least in US litigation.

Im so terribly sick of it. I once accidentally broke an adult students nose with a round kick. He leaned into it ( a common mistake) it was purely an accident. It happens In martial arts schools. You put on gear, you take ridks...I have tremendouse control over my legs.....but not perfect. I shut down classes, drove him to his hospital... Stayed with him while he got checked out. Drove him home. A week later I get a call from his lawyer.

Hugh!?!??!?

[karmakazi]

Wearer of Hats, on 07 July 2012 - 04:28 AM, said:

I think the "you right to swing your fist stops at my right not o get punched" principle needs to be applied here. Feel free not to vaccinate your children but when that right threatens my child thrn yourfreedom stops being free. The price may be a life, is it worth it?

The thing is that on both sides of the scenario the parents feel they are protecting their own children's lives, and children on both sides have the potential to be harmed either way the decision goes... vaccinating or not vaccinating.

The question becomes whose kids are more important?  The majority or the few?


I do agree though that unvaccinated kids shouldn't be in public schools until after the age when the rest of the kids would be vaccinated.

[and then]

QuiteContrary, on 05 July 2012 - 08:46 AM, said:

We older adults are being urged to be tested for immunity to measles, mumps, and rubella. And get booster vaccinations if needed, especially if we are ever around children, which would be all of us I assume.

So vaccines are not just for kids. Adults keeping up to date with adult vaccinations can help prevent the spread of disease such as hepatitis, diptheria and pertussis too.

I acquired chicken pox from my sister's children when I was 28.  It is definitely best to be vaccinated if one is available.  I was much sicker than with any flu I've ever had.

[QuiteContrary]

and then, on 10 July 2012 - 07:18 PM, said:

I acquired chicken pox from my sister's children when I was 28.  It is definitely best to be vaccinated if one is available.  I was much sicker than with any flu I've ever had.

Yes, adult chicken pox may be  more serious than when in children. Even more serious when in teenagers, I think.

Edited by QuiteContrary, 10 July 2012 - 07:26 PM.

[Seeker79]

This should put it to rest.

http://m.historyofva...-adverse-events

There ARE potential side affects though rare.

Ill maintain my stance that freedom is more important than mitigating very rare risks. It's what is already happening and kids are doing just fine. My kids get vaccinated but if my government forced me to get them vaccinated and they suffered a serious side affect, I would be more than angry.

Might I remind people of actual history

"For example, in 1972, United States Senate committee testimony brought to light that at least 2,000 involuntary sterilizations had been performed on poor black women without their consent or knowledge"

Eugenics is just one example of the dangers of letting a government control what goes in our bodies.


http://en.m.wikipedi...tates#section_1

[Magicjax]

Ok. Here's my stance on this. If a parent decides not to vaccinate their child. That's their right. But a school or organization also has the right not to allow a child into their school or organization if the child could put other children at risk.

There are some religious exemptions that don't bother me at all. For example some schools don't allow the kids to wear hats. But I have no problem allowing Jewish to wear their head piece (not sure what they're called). But more serious issues such as vaccinination, taxes, bullying, etc… I don't think religion should get any special treatment. The same rules should apply regardless of anyone's religion.

[ShadowSot]

The only part that gets me to pause over outright blacklisting government enforced vaccinations has to do with herd immunity. If enough people in an area do not receive vaccinations these diseases have a tendency of breaking out again.
Like now we have outbreaks of pertussis and measles due to the panic of that twit Wakefield.

Frankly, I find religious exemptions for medical treatments to be stupid. Under this same category falls faith healing and denial of medical intervention. Even worse is when these people are held up as respectable due to their faith leading to an early grave.
Or actually, mostly their children to an early grave.

[Bluefinger]

Magicjax, on 03 July 2012 - 05:17 PM, said:

When ever I read those words (religious exemption) a red light tends to go off in my mind.

While many religious exemptions are harmless.  Some, well many actually, can be down right dangerous.

  Hi Magicjax.  Excellent topic.  Sorry for coming in so late.  I'm pretty sure I missed a good chunk of arguments and I'm sure I'll catch up quick enough.

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Some examples I know of are things like religious exemption for vaccines. If a vaccine is important enough that kids must have it to be admitted into a school. Someone's religion won't effect the dangers either way. If the virus will effect people of one religion it'll effect people of any religion. So their religious beliefs have no effect on the vaccine and no religious vaccine exemption should ever happen. Here's an example:
http://www.msnbc.msn...-vaccines-kids/

I agree. Here's what I think.  If a family doesn't want to get vaccinated for religious reasons, then they should consider either private schooling (more expensive) or home schooling.  It can be a health hazard if a child has not been vaccinated.  Gray area though:  It CAN be.

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There are many examples of religious exemptions that I think can be dangerous and I don't think a single one of them is appropriate to be honest.

Religious Exemptions give some people the legal right to do what they please in some cases. For instance the anti-bullying law here in Michigan says that "bullying kids is okay if a student, parent, teacher or school employee can come up with a moral or religious reason for doing it."
http://swampland.tim...ous-tormenters/

Wow.  I'm a Christian and am quite flabbergasted by that very outdated and very elitist line of thinking.

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Why should churches be exempted from paying taxes?

That's actually originally a Christian argument.  Considered to be the forerunner of the Reformation, English preacher Jean Wycliffe (not the Fugees musician) spoke out against the Catholic Church for owning property that was exempt from government jurisdiction.  He believed that it made the Church a government within a government that answered to nobody.  Roman Catholics tried to have him killed, but it never worked out (possibly due to British protection.)

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Check out How it effects education (higher education) in different states. At first it doesn't seem bad. But I think about all the kids who's education is either altered or limited by their parents views here. Some that might be forced to go to this school or that school based on their parents preferences.

If the government wasn't supportive of science or biology, I can't imagine how many people here would be arguing the other way around.  They would want their kids removed from public schools so that they could educate their children the way they think their children should be educated.  So in a sense, this argument is really a muted one.  Parents raise their kids based on what they think is best for their kids.  And that is alright, regardless of whether what they believe is thought as right or wrong by others.

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That's fine to some degree. But if the decision is made on religious belief before the child is older and makes up their own minds in religion. I don't think it's right to be forced in a direction on that matter. But that's another discussion.

But isn't a religion just equated to a worldview, which usually develops within a culture in a particular society?  That you think that a religious parent making decisions for their children based on their religion is wrong is based on your worldview about what is best for people in general, isn't it?  And didn't a combination of upbringing, education, and experience lead you to that conclusion?  If that is the case, then there is nothing different between what you are doing and what they are doing, aside from the worldview.  You're both making decisions for your kids based on what each of you think is best for them.

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I don't always see this as a theist/atheist debate. It seems many in both sides disagree with many religious exemptions. What's your thoughts?

I hope I have provided a good response that will generate productive ideas that will lead us to what is true and right.  Thanks for the thought provoking questions.