348 replies to this topic

[laver]

bison, on 30 January 2013 - 02:49 PM, said:

Follow up on my quoted post, above. Using the search term: 'eyewitness crop circles' at Google brings up a number of instances where witnesses reported the formation of crop circle in an anomalous manner, and in too brief a time to admit of a human cause.

If we accept that a non terrestial source for some crop circles is a reasonable opinion then we must ask ourselves what is the message that they may be trying to convey? and why now? There have been occasional possible examples in the past but many many examples in recent years of which some are clearly human creations but many must not be. Are we at a particularly significant moment in time? Looking at our world today and the many problems that we face this might be the case.

[bison]

laver, on 30 January 2013 - 03:25 PM, said:

If we accept that a non terrestial source for some crop circles is a reasonable opinion then we must ask ourselves what is the message that they may be trying to convey? and why now? There have been occasional possible examples in the past but many many examples in recent years of which some are clearly human creations but many must not be. Are we at a particularly significant moment in time? Looking at our world today and the many problems that we face this might be the case.

  Are we in a special time, right now? Could be. It looks as if we're somewhere in the middle of a process of getting in contact with the rest of the galaxy.
The general theme of crop circles is, of course, circles, and various modifications and combinations of them. A circle can stand for a complete entity, like a planet.
First we typically saw single circles, like a lone planet in space. More recently, two circles joined by a line were often seen, frequently compared to a 'dumbell'. This seemed to refer to a tentative connection between two worlds.
Lately we've see patterns with overlapping circles. This seems to point to a more profound connection. Such patterns also contain new shapes, like crescents, and vesica pisces (like a cartoon of a fish, but without the fins) This seems to suggest the synergism of two worlds sharing, and producing something new; more than simply the sum of the two formerly separate parts.

[laver]

bison, on 30 January 2013 - 05:09 PM, said:

Are we in a special time, right now? Could be. It looks as if we're somewhere in the middle of a process of getting in contact with the rest of the galaxy.
The general theme of crop circles is, of course, circles, and various modifications and combinations of them. A circle can stand for a complete entity, like a planet.
First we typically saw single circles, like a lone planet in space. More recently, two circles joined by a line were often seen, frequently compared to a 'dumbell'. This seemed to refer to a tentative connection between two worlds.
Lately we've see patterns with overlapping circles. This seems to point to a more profound connection. Such patterns also contain new shapes, like crescents, and vesica pisces (like a cartoon of a fish, but without the fins) This seems to suggest the synergism of two worlds sharing, and producing something new; more than simply the sum of the two formerly separate parts.

Two overlapping circles you mention... have a look at the web site of David Furlong with details of his book 'The Keys to the Temple' in which he found two overlapping circles on the Marlborough Downs in Wiltshire which seem to date back to at least 3000 BCE and have geometric links that he shows relate to the Great Pyramid in Egypt. The area in which he found these circles is the centre of crop circle activity in the world. The dimensions of the 'vesica pisces' he discovered is critical to his discoveries and to the identification of a focal point ( Temple Farm) which is a key location in a very ancient design of landscape geometry which is just coming to light with very profound implications. It is true, we have ancient landscape geometry set out at least 5000 years ago which required an intelligence and knowledge far beyond our present understanding of those times.

[ThisiswhatIthink]

Slave2Fate, on 09 January 2013 - 04:56 AM, said:

Not sure if you understand the difference of implausibility between human generated crop circles and advanced aliens travelling the cosmos to draw circles in the grass AKA pee in the snow. I've always wondered what it feels like to thumb my nose at logic like that.

Just because you deduce crop circles to 'aliens peeing in the snow' doesn't make it such. Maybe to you aliens creating crop circles isn't logical. Then again, maybe 'thumbing your nose' and being a 'slave2 fate' isn't very logical to the aliens either. There is most certainly undeniable evidence that cannot be explained and gets shrugged off and swept under the rug because there truly is no way to explain how the **** these gigantic ******* elaborate, symetrical shapes and figures spring up over night. Instead of belittling compelling evidence, why don't you actually try to make sense of it. The sensible reasoning to come to is that people ARE NOT running around with micro-wave guns. Aliens sounds WAY more plausible than that

[psyche101]

ThisiswhatIthink, on 31 January 2013 - 07:07 AM, said:

Just because you deduce crop circles to 'aliens peeing in the snow' doesn't make it such. Maybe to you aliens creating crop circles isn't logical. Then again, maybe 'thumbing your nose' and being a 'slave2 fate' isn't very logical to the aliens either. There is most certainly undeniable evidence that cannot be explained and gets shrugged off and swept under the rug because there truly is no way to explain how the **** these gigantic ******* elaborate, symetrical shapes and figures spring up over night. Instead of belittling compelling evidence, why don't you actually try to make sense of it. The sensible reasoning to come to is that people ARE NOT running around with micro-wave guns. Aliens sounds WAY more plausible than that

Microwaves do not explain anything, that study was flawed.
Aliens do not sounds more plausible than circle makers, and they have examples to boot.

[Slave2Fate]

ThisiswhatIthink, on 31 January 2013 - 07:07 AM, said:

Just because you deduce crop circles to 'aliens peeing in the snow' doesn't make it such. Maybe to you aliens creating crop circles isn't logical. Then again, maybe 'thumbing your nose' and being a 'slave2 fate' isn't very logical to the aliens either. There is most certainly undeniable evidence that cannot be explained and gets shrugged off and swept under the rug because there truly is no way to explain how the **** these gigantic ******* elaborate, symetrical shapes and figures spring up over night. Instead of belittling compelling evidence, why don't you actually try to make sense of it. The sensible reasoning to come to is that people ARE NOT running around with micro-wave guns. Aliens sounds WAY more plausible than that

So then obviously you have the evidence to show that microwaves were in fact used on crop circles? Or does it just appear that way? Do you realize how many obstacles must be overcome for intelligent life to evolve in the first place? And then for said life to proceed through the industrial revolution and advance to the point of travelling the stars? And then proceed to find our tiny speck of dust of a planet with literally more than a trillion to one odds? And then for them to be advanced enough to do all of that and still not have the decency or maybe even ability to ring the doorbell and introduce themselves, instead relying on a cryptic form of communication that we can't decipher? All under the cover of darkness and secrecy? Would you care to address those points as you explain how it is that that is more likely than some pranksters running around pulling peoples legs?

[bison]

The obstacles to the evolution of life may well be formidable. What we begin to perceive about the likely number of planets in the galaxy tends to offset this. This number is a huge one, and so provides a huge number of settings for life to develop. Even if the majority of these fail to produce life, we could still end up with a very substantial number of living planets. If we similarly whittle down the number of planets that produce what we think of as intelligent life, and then again, that produce a technological civilization with the capability to visit the stars, the number could still be respectable.
Once the ability to travel the galaxy is attained, even at sub-light speeds, the number of planets where such initiatives originated becomes less important. At least some of these civilizations can be expected to expand into the entire galaxy, just as ancient humans expanded their territory from a tiny corner of Africa, to the entire planet.
Finding already inhabited planets, like Earth would not need to be a chance proposition. We are already considering methods of detecting life on newly discovered exoplanets. Life alters the atmosphere of its planet in ways detectable at stellar distance. Once a life-containing planet was located, it could be focused upon for signs of technological activity, such as artificial contaminants in the atmosphere, radio and radar emissions, and anomalous heat emissions.
Speculations about what would be a 'decent' way for extraterrestrials to introduce themselves to us are based on a very limited amount of knowledge. We have no experience in contacting other inhabited worlds, know essentially nothing about ET psychology or culture, and have a regrettable history of cross-cultural contacts with our own species, which is far from 'decent'. If a subtle, slow, and somewhat ambiguous process of introduction is sought, in order to avoid disruption and conflict,  more power to them, say I!

[laver]

bison, on 31 January 2013 - 03:29 PM, said:

The obstacles to the evolution of life may well be formidable. What we begin to perceive about the likely number of planets in the galaxy tends to offset this. This number is a huge one, and so provides a huge number of settings for life to develop. Even if the majority of these fail to produce life, we could still end up with a very substantial number of living planets. If we similarly whittle down the number of planets that produce what we think of as intelligent life, and then again, that produce a technological civilization with the capability to visit the stars, the number could still be respectable.
Once the ability to travel the galaxy is attained, even at sub-light speeds, the number of planets where such initiatives originated becomes less important. At least some of these civilizations can be expected to expand into the entire galaxy, just as ancient humans expanded their territory from a tiny corner of Africa, to the entire planet.
Finding already inhabited planets, like Earth would not need to be a chance proposition. We are already considering methods of detecting life on newly discovered exoplanets. Life alters the atmosphere of its planet in ways detectable at stellar distance. Once a life-containing planet was located, it could be focused upon for signs of technological activity, such as artificial contaminants in the atmosphere, radio and radar emissions, and anomalous heat emissions.
Speculations about what would be a 'decent' way for extraterrestrials to introduce themselves to us are based on a very limited amount of knowledge. We have no experience in contacting other inhabited worlds, know essentially nothing about ET psychology or culture, and have a regrettable history of cross-cultural contacts with our own species, which is far from 'decent'. If a subtle, slow, and somewhat ambiguous process of introduction is sought, in order to avoid disruption and conflict,  more power to them, say I!

A few lights in the sky and inexplicable objects, seen by reliable witnesses, a few crop designs with mathematical messages; this might be a highly intelligent way to introduce a totally new dimension to our lives without createing mass panic and hysteria. But this depends on whether we are being told to ignore these signs by some people who choose to ridicule the possibility.

[Slave2Fate]

bison, on 31 January 2013 - 03:29 PM, said:

The obstacles to the evolution of life may well be formidable. What we begin to perceive about the likely number of planets in the galaxy tends to offset this. This number is a huge one, and so provides a huge number of settings for life to develop. Even if the majority of these fail to produce life, we could still end up with a very substantial number of living planets. If we similarly whittle down the number of planets that produce what we think of as intelligent life, and then again, that produce a technological civilization with the capability to visit the stars, the number could still be respectable.
Once the ability to travel the galaxy is attained, even at sub-light speeds, the number of planets where such initiatives originated becomes less important. At least some of these civilizations can be expected to expand into the entire galaxy, just as ancient humans expanded their territory from a tiny corner of Africa, to the entire planet.
Finding already inhabited planets, like Earth would not need to be a chance proposition. We are already considering methods of detecting life on newly discovered exoplanets. Life alters the atmosphere of its planet in ways detectable at stellar distance. Once a life-containing planet was located, it could be focused upon for signs of technological activity, such as artificial contaminants in the atmosphere, radio and radar emissions, and anomalous heat emissions.
Speculations about what would be a 'decent' way for extraterrestrials to introduce themselves to us are based on a very limited amount of knowledge. We have no experience in contacting other inhabited worlds, know essentially nothing about ET psychology or culture, and have a regrettable history of cross-cultural contacts with our own species, which is far from 'decent'. If a subtle, slow, and somewhat ambiguous process of introduction is sought, in order to avoid disruption and conflict,  more power to them, say I!

At least I can count on you to give a well thought reply bison.

Indeed, I never said any of that was impossible however I still think the likelihood of those things being the case is quite small. As far as being a disruptive or chaotic event when aliens finally do announce their presence, I think that there would indeed be panic and fear but only in a small percentage of the population. There might be a bit of a worldwide disruption though I'm sure things would be back to 'normal' in short order. Once the initial shock wore off people would do what they always do and life would go on. I doubt there would be panic in the streets or rioting or anarchy all over the place, this isn't some 50's sci-fi.

[bison]

laver, on 31 January 2013 - 05:01 PM, said:

A few lights in the sky and inexplicable objects, seen by reliable witnesses, a few crop designs with mathematical messages; this might be a highly intelligent way to introduce a totally new dimension to our lives without createing mass panic and hysteria. But this depends on whether we are being told to ignore these signs by some people who choose to ridicule the possibility.

People have been telling me to ignore things most of my life. I rarely heeded them, and usually found I'd made the right decision. I'd like to see this supposed introductory phase reach some kind of closure, so that we could begin to learn about life in the rest of the galaxy. Is it required that everyone believe that we are visited by extraterrestrials *before* some kind of ET self disclosure can happen? I doubt it.  Elder civilizations would, I hope, be both smart and wise. It would not be wise to set an impossibly difficult goal like this.  I suppose that some especially stubborn skeptics will probably just have to deal with the shock of the new, when it happens. From what I've seen, it could be pretty hard on some of them.

Edited by bison, 31 January 2013 - 10:00 PM.

[bison]

Slave2Fate, on 31 January 2013 - 09:41 PM, said:

At least I can count on you to give a well thought reply bison.

Indeed, I never said any of that was impossible however I still think the likelihood of those things being the case is quite small. As far as being a disruptive or chaotic event when aliens finally do announce their presence, I think that there would indeed be panic and fear but only in a small percentage of the population. There might be a bit of a worldwide disruption though I'm sure things would be back to 'normal' in short order. Once the initial shock wore off people would do what they always do and life would go on. I doubt there would be panic in the streets or rioting or anarchy all over the place, this isn't some 50's sci-fi.

It worries me somewhat that many of the most high placed members of Earth societies are apparently skeptical of the possibility of ET self disclosure, or at least unprepared for it. Their reactions could contribute disproportionately to a sense of instability in society as a whole. Dominant scientific ideas about what life in the universe is actually capable of could take a fatal blow. Our sense of self sufficiency as a species, and belief in the supremacy of our moral, philosophical, and intellectual achievements could probably not be long maintained. In all, this will be a very challenging time for us, even if it is handled very carefully by the others.

Edited by bison, 31 January 2013 - 10:21 PM.

[laver]

bison, on 31 January 2013 - 10:19 PM, said:

It worries me somewhat that many of the most high placed members of Earth societies are apparently skeptical of the possibility of ET self disclosure, or at least unprepared for it. Their reactions could contribute disproportionately to a sense of instability in society as a whole. Dominant scientific ideas about what life in the universe is actually capable of could take a fatal blow. Our sense of self sufficiency as a species, and belief in the supremacy of our moral, philosophical, and intellectual achievements could probably not be long maintained. In all, this will be a very challenging time for us, even if it is handled very carefully by the others.

Civilisation is a veneer... beneath is pretty primal led by fear of the unknown...it is that fear which needs to be addressed. The 'security' that our governments would like us to believe in is a sham, we live on a planet.. we know not where..... we come, we go.... but what matters is what we do here and now, not what may or may not happen in the 'afterlife' which is just a further unknown...

[Ugly1]

Via Google Search: Occam's razor (also written as Ockham's razor, Latin lex parsimoniae) is a principle of parsimony, economy, or succinctness used in logic and problem-solving. It states that among competing hypotheses, the one that makes the fewest assumptions should be selected.

So the fewest assumptions would be that some undiscovered life force, possibly traveling light years (or using a wormhole), came to earth, looked for a wheat field, made circles in wheat field with trace evidence of microwave radiation. (Probably least amount of assumptions possible with this scenario.)

Other option. Man knocks down crops into pattern.

Unless I am misunderstanding the definition it would seem that Occam's Razor would suggest that they are man made.

[bison]

Ugly1, on 31 January 2013 - 11:43 PM, said:

Via Google Search: Occam's razor (also written as Ockham's razor, Latin lex parsimoniae) is a principle of parsimony, economy, or succinctness used in logic and problem-solving. It states that among competing hypotheses, the one that makes the fewest assumptions should be selected.

So the fewest assumptions would be that some undiscovered life force, possibly traveling light years (or using a wormhole), came to earth, looked for a wheat field, made circles in wheat field with trace evidence of microwave radiation. (Probably least amount of assumptions possible with this scenario.)

Other option. Man knocks down crops into pattern.

Unless I am misunderstanding the definition it would seem that Occam's Razor would suggest that they are man made.

The explanation with the fewest assumptions, yes, but it must also explain *all* the observations. There are still some real doubts rattling around  that the man-made explanation does so. This aspect of the problem was discussed earlier in this thread. Chief among its apparent deficiencies are some cases where crop circles were apparently made in seconds or minutes, and the peculiar business of electronic devices which malfunction, or are drained of power, inexplicably, when taken into crop circles.

[laver]

bison, on 01 February 2013 - 12:34 AM, said:

The explanation with the fewest assumptions, yes, but it must also explain *all* the observations. There are still some real doubts rattling around  that the man-made explanation does so. This aspect of the problem was discussed earlier in this thread. Chief among its apparent deficiencies are some cases where crop circles were apparently made in seconds or minutes, and the peculiar business of electronic devices which malfunction, or are drained of power, inexplicably, when taken into crop circles.

If you ignore the aspects of some crop circles that indicate that they were not of terrestial formation then of course the principle of Occum's Razor would point to human formation of all crop circles but this would be contrary to Newton's definition, at the start of this thread, that we must only consider factors that are 'true'. By ignoring factors that don't fit the human creation of all crop circles it invalidates the argument and only leaves the conclusion that some crop designs are not man-made.