87 replies to this topic

[GodsMessenger]

Maslow's hierarchy of needs is what i thought you were referencing in the first post.

simply put, satisfaction of various needs is not dependent on the completion of any prior needs.  all the needs are equal, even though some are neccessary to survival (it has been argued that self actualization is not necessary to all people).  there is no order to which the needs are fulfilled and are fulfilled independently.  yes, you can be self actualized while starving for example.

it is unfortunate that all too often "equals" get mis-grouped into hierarchies.

I agree with you, but I also see the logic to Maslow's thinking. Generally speaking I think Maslow is right but certainly as individuals those needs can be varied in their fuldillment.

When I think of that hierarchy however I think like this.

As an human animal like all animals we need FOOD to survive physically. We need shelter from the elements and we need security from predators. Needs for our physical health and welfare.

After we have secured our physical life, then we can focus on our needs od self actualization.
Those other needs Maslow talks about are needs based on our human sentience, they deal with our emotional health and welfare.


If you have not satisfied your need for food shelter and security you would be DEAD and couold not satisfy your self actualization needs.

The fact that you are alive is testimony that for the present moment you have satisfied those primary physical needs.


Logic paints another picture of those hugher needs as well.

Many humans kill themselves because they feel there is no purpose to their lives.
And what purpose is there in life? Obviously to have a purpose you must be needed. If no one needs you, then you have no purpose in life. Look at Curt Cobain. He had it ALL , Fame,. Fortune, Family! And yet he claimed there was no reason to live because he had attained all his goals. All HIS goals. I don't like to speak ill of the dead, but what a SELFISH attitude. If he cared about OTHERS, he would still be alive today because MILLIONS of people need US all!
Curt Cobain could have used his Fame and Fortune to HELP OTHERS. what a glorious PURPOSE for ones life. Briinging JOY to children, to the lonely, to the sick, to the elderly, to those in hospitals and prisons. All they need is a friend. Someone to love them.
List some "purposes" of life and see how many of them involve OTHERS. Pleasing them, helping them, impressing them, challenging them.

And before you can accomplish something like winning a race, you need to have your nutritional needs met if you expect to have any success, just for one example of why some needs have to be met before others can be.

[hyperactive]

that still does not make them a hierarchy of needs.

basic needs such as food are a requirement to survive, yes.  however, nutrition is independent of the other needs.  you can be without shelter and still fulfilling your self-esteem needs, for example.

maslow.... i think too many people stumble on or are presented with (in some undergrad course) this hierarchy.  it is great as a simplistic view, but lousy as anything more.

[Ashley-Star*Child]

Hmm... why do you seem so positive about that? How do you know its not the other way around kind of... where the Biblical god is one of the bad characters who is trying to syphon followers from true gods such as the Egyptian or greek gods by portraying THEM as bad ones?

God isn't malevolant Stellar, we've been through this before....Zeus was the Greek version of God, flavored by their culture, they even had an account of the flood wiping out all life by an angry Zeus, and even had hybrid Nephilim equivalents and monsters. The Egyptians believed Orion was the Throne of God in pre-dynsasty times, and since that time period was the same as the influence of these angels, I would say that that possibility is very high in it being true. God IS in space, I've said it before.

Ashley, you are mistaken in believing that Genesis is the first biblical book. The bible is not in order of date written. Job is actualy the first book of the bible. 

Saucy I thought you were some sort of Pastor? Which level of Heaven is God on again? (10th, is case you forgot ). Do some research, please, Genesis isn't the first book, and Job most definantly isn't either. Enoch is.

And the very human emotion of 'jealousy' rears its head in the godhead figure. Interesting.

JPMD1, God is our Father, and as such guards His children jealously. Would you prefer He did not care at all?

GodsMessenger,

1. While I respect your right to believe as you wish, and I'm not picking per se, the 'so-called historical' part of the Bible, when properly examined, and with excluded books is just as much a rival theory as any Evolutionist could ever claim. There are, as I've said in other posts, an outcry of scientists who do NOT accept Evolution because they have tested it (and most aren't religious, and not Creationists). There's more to those historical accounts than people give them credit for. While I dn't agree the Earth is 6000 years old, there ARE alternate theories out there.

2. Jesus actually laid out the 10 Commandments which were taken from the 613 given to Moses, of which Judiasm still follows (those rules are in Exodus, but get ignored) as the rules to follow. Jesus didn't come here to break His father's laws, He came here to change them.

And God said "I desire MERCY" not sacrifice, which is what Jesus came to remiind the Jews and all of us.

And it was that that Jesus was here to change. You get the idea. The rituals, rules and routines being practiced at the time were distracting from the real meaning of it all. God. Some Christians are also making this same mistake today....

[Ashley-Star*Child]

People shouldn't so flagrantly agree with Evolution simply because it's public opinion. Public opinion can be wrong.

[GodsMessenger]

that still does not make them a hierarchy of needs.

basic needs such as food are a requirement to survive, yes.  however, nutrition is independent of the other needs.  you can be without shelter and still fulfilling your self-esteem needs, for example.

maslow.... i think too many people stumble on or are presented with (in some undergrad course) this hierarchy.  it is great as a simplistic view, but lousy as anything more.

If you are frozen to death, you can't fulfill any self esteem needs because you would be dead.

You first have to be physically aive before you can be psychologically alive.
And you first have to be psychologically alive before you can be emotionally alive.

However even after saying all of that. I am brought back to the realization that I also hold a perception of a reality in which the physical world is just smoke and mirrors, an illusion that hides the reality of the sub atomic world of energy fields and nothingness.

[GodsMessenger]

GodsMessenger,

1. While I respect your right to believe as you wish, and I'm not picking per se, the 'so-called historical' part of the Bible, when properly examined, and with excluded books is just as much a rival theory as any Evolutionist could ever claim. There are, as I've said in other posts, an outcry of scientists who do NOT accept Evolution because they have tested it (and most aren't religious, and not Creationists). There's more to those historical accounts than people give them credit for. While I dn't agree the Earth is 6000 years old, there ARE alternate theories out there.

2. Jesus actually laid out the 10 Commandments which were taken from the 613 given to Moses, of which Judiasm still follows (those rules are in Exodus, but get ignored) as the rules to follow. Jesus didn't come here to break His father's laws, He came here to change them.

And God said "I desire MERCY" not sacrifice, which is what Jesus came to remiind the Jews and all of us.

And it was that that Jesus was here to change. You get the idea. The rituals, rules and routines being practiced at the time were distracting from the real meaning of it all. God. Some Christians are also making this same mistake today....

The bible's historical validity is irrelevant for me when it comes to the TRUTH that I see in the bible. The metaphorical truths and concepts are more important for me.

Whether the new testament and the character and teachings of Jesus actually happened or not, does not change the validity of those teachings of Jesus. And the spirit of those teachings of the character Jesus, become real when by faith we believe in and act upon them. When we acknowledge the Spirit of Christ by giving It reality with our words and actions. We become one with His Spirit. When we obey the voice of God when he tells us what the right thing to do is in any given situation we become children of God.
And when we hear God tell us to do one thing and we choose to do another, then we are not the children of God.

God is The Spirit of Truth and Rigteousness, and when we choose to do what we believe is wrong, then we are no longer obedient to the Truth but have chosen to be obedient to the LIE!

This has nothing to do with what any other person thinks is right or wrong.
It has to do with being true to oneself or being in self denial.

However having said that, people who are of one accord with the Spirit of Truth will reocgnize each other, whether they are atheist or pagan or jew or christian they will be one in the Spirit of Truth and Righteousness.

[Stellar]

God isn't malevolant Stellar, we've been through this before...

Approach this from an unbiased point of view for a moment. Here you are, trying to determin whether god is malevolant or not. Either that, or whether the god your worshiping is actually god or if he's satan in disguise. Its quite possible that what your worshiping is malevolant.

Zeus was the Greek version of God, flavored by their culture, they even had an account of the flood wiping out all life by an angry Zeus, and even had hybrid Nephilim equivalents and monsters. The Egyptians believed Orion was the Throne of God in pre-dynsasty times, and since that time period was the same as the influence of these angels, I would say that that possibility is very high in it being true.

And how does that prove anything?

God IS in space, I've said it before.

You fail to realise that what you say really doesnt matter.

[GodsMessenger]

God isn't malevolant Stellar, we've been through this before...

Approach this from an unbiased point of view for a moment. Here you are, trying to determin whether god is malevolant or not. Either that, or whether the god your worshiping is actually god or if he's satan in disguise. Its quite possible that what your worshiping is malevolant.

Zeus was the Greek version of God, flavored by their culture, they even had an account of the flood wiping out all life by an angry Zeus, and even had hybrid Nephilim equivalents and monsters. The Egyptians believed Orion was the Throne of God in pre-dynsasty times, and since that time period was the same as the influence of these angels, I would say that that possibility is very high in it being true.

And how does that prove anything?

God IS in space, I've said it before.

You fail to realise that what you say really doesnt matter.

Does what YOU say matter?

I would hope that anything any of us has to say should matter.

And how can any of us approach anything from an unbiased point of view. ALL of our views are a product of a lifetime of data input and programming. The best we can do is add new bits of information to our data base and adjust our programming based on the new data.

And that new data comes from all the things that any of us has to say.

[pallidin]

Regardless of what God is, or the "character" attributes given, God is God; the Most High.
Something tells me that we should have respect.

[Stellar]

Does what YOU say matter?

Nope. Just because I say something doesnt mean its true.

I would hope that anything any of us has to say should matter.

So if I said that your god is a phoney, my word alone should be enough?

[Amalgamut]

I havent read every post on this subject, so forgive me if I am repeating someone else's thoughts.

I think most of the deities are the same, its just that different people have different views. This in turn forms many religions that are very similar in there view. I know this is probably an obvious reply.

[Ashley-Star*Child]

GodsMessenger,

I can respect your reasons for what you find in the Bible. If it works you for you then I have no objections. Not everyone has an interest in, or even cares about the history of the Bible. I personally do though, and I've spent alot of time and effort researching what has been looked over before, and well, it is important to me. And I don't make light of it....The historical evidence I've found is much more interesting than what people commonly hear about today, from either side. The truth is better, and stranger, than fiction.

And Stellar,

I'm not going to argue with you. Satan is an accusing angel, an 'attorney' like prosecution against mankind, and at one point against his own kind, angels. God is God, satanail, is satan.

Edited by Ashley-Star*Child, 21 June 2005 - 05:41 AM.

[GodsMessenger]

Does what YOU say matter?

Nope. Just because I say something doesnt mean its true.

I would hope that anything any of us has to say should matter.

So if I said that your god is a phoney, my word alone should be enough?

We have our perceptions of the Truth, how close our perceptions are to the Absolute Truth, I don't think we as humans can really know for sure.

If you are sincere in your desire and efforst to understand teh Truth, then your word although it is not the absolute Truth, is the only think you have to go on.

The key is in at least trying to understand  the other persons perception and how it fits into your own. And trying to understand why they believe their perception is true without being condescending by thinking things like it is because they are stupid or ignorant. In other words respecting their opinion even if you do not agree with it or understand it.