Another Debate deleted on UM

[Syd Boggle]

It has been my experience on UM, that certain debates are deleted on sensitive subjects, i wont mention these debates, but i am sure we have all witnessed them, It is my view, that on an open forum, dedicated to promoting open debate, (as long as it remains constructive) with elements of intellectual merit, that these debates, even if somewhat offensive to the few, but remain balanced and substanciated to the many, should be allowed to continue.

these debates are often related to topics in the field of race, sexuality & religeon......sensitive argumemnts indeed, but they should not be treated like a political hot potatos....

It seems again, that when the minorities complain, they overpower the majorities right to speak

and ultimately the values that have made the west the haven of ultimate freedeom, which exsits from freedom of expression, even if unpalletable to some....

Edited October 26, 2007 by lord scrummage

[Unlimited]

they are more cautious here then some sites...keeps it clean i guess?...

[She-ra]

No way!! This forum RUNS on debates!! Follow the rules, play fair and everybody wins! I don't want to see yes-men (or women) everywhere. I don't personally like to see some of the attacks/ mockery but it's not my job to monitor anything... that's where the Mod's come into play. I do, however, have the right to state MY OWN opinions (within the rules and guidelines of this forum) and in my own special way

Happy debating!

[glorybebe]

It has been my experience on UM, that certain debates are deleted on sensitive subjects, i wont mention these debates, but i am sure we have all witnessed them, It is my view, that on an open forum, dedicated to promoting open debate, (as long as it remains constructive) with elements of intellectual merit, that these debates, even if somewhat offensive to the few, but remain balanced and substanciated to the many, should be allowed to continue.

these debates are often related to topics in the field of race, sexuality & religeon......sensitive argumemnts indeed, but they should not be treated like a political hot potatos....

It seems again, that the minorities will to complain, overpowers the majorities right to speak

But when it comes to name calling and personal attacks, then I agree with closing if not deleting the threads. That is a problem I see way to often on here. Instead of ignoring a person, many will personally attack. Also, we have a few members who get a thrill out of baiting others to get a rise out of them. I try not to rise to insults, but being human, I will at times try to defend myself. Everyone has an opinion, that is how we learn, by hearing other's opinions. BUT, can we really have educated, rational and POLITE debates? Very rarely.

[wolfieboy]

It has been my experience on UM, that certain debates are deleted on sensitive subjects, i wont mention these debates, but i am sure we have all witnessed them, It is my view, that on an open forum, dedicated to promoting open debate, (as long as it remains constructive) with elements of intellectual merit, that these debates, even if somewhat offensive to the few, but remain balanced and substanciated to the many, should be allowed to continue.

these debates are often related to topics in the field of race, sexuality & religeon......sensitive argumemnts indeed, but they should not be treated like a political hot potatos....

It seems again, that the minorities will to complain, overpowers the majorities right to speak

KOODOS TO YOU SIR I MUST AGREE

[She-ra]

But when it comes to name calling and personal attacks, then I agree with closing if not deleting the threads. That is a problem I see way to often on here. Instead of ignoring a person, many will personally attack. Also, we have a few members who get a thrill out of baiting others to get a rise out of them. I try not to rise to insults, but being human, I will at times try to defend myself. Everyone has an opinion, that is how we learn, by hearing other's opinions. BUT, can we really have educated, rational and POLITE debates? Very rarely.

I hear you Glory Baby Doll.. see the baiters and see the "victims"... doesn't take a brain surgeon.

[Bill Hill]

I'm not afraid of a low down dirty debate. And I've never reported anyone.. and I can take it...

A good put down is funny aimed at me..

But yeah sure, stay within the rules...of course, but it does seem as if there's a hardcore minority..who, rather than debate, will instead complain.. to the powers that be, and use the subjective grey area of the rules to shut down thread..or have it deleted.

Seems there's more freedom/balance in the World section; probably due to a top/balanced moderator(s)..

But, I've seen threads disappear which I don't understand why or see anything wrong with the subject;in fact some of these subjects need debating.

[wolfieboy]

I hear you Glory Baby Doll.. see the baiters and see the "victims"... doesn't take a brain surgeon.

and because a few can't handle themselves the many should suffer, sounds just like the real world. so i guess we cannot escape the protection of the weak and mindless

[She-ra]

I hear you Billy. Hmmm, maybe a complaint quota should be reached? I too have noticed disappearing threads in the past. Whatever, I just move on to the next topic

Edit to add:

QUOTE (She-ra @ Oct 26 2007, 06:08 PM)

I hear you Glory Baby Doll.. see the baiters and see the "victims"... doesn't take a brain surgeon.

and because a few can't handle themselves the many should suffer, sounds just like the real world. so i guess we cannot escape the protection of the weak and mindless

Not sure if you're directing this at me wolfieboy or glory? Hmmmm, I think the few who can't handle themselves are warned by the Moderator's... and the many should suffer?? You mean the many who read whatever thread you speak of? The real world is quite a rude awakening, yes, however- I do not need to "escape the protection" I can protect myself... and the weak and mindless; what exactly are you saying here?

This is quite odd.

Edited October 26, 2007 by She-ra

[BlueZone]

to be honest, I was sorry to see the controversy about James Watson deleted. It's headline news around the world. Not discussing major news events seems odd, and I would have been interested to read what people had to say.

[chemical-licker]

i bet this thread gets deleted

how am i supposed to be a better human and be all the best i can be with threads being deleted

I learn so much from good debates, i especially love the creativity of the jokes its all good humour and very entertaining.

It is such a shame, people would rather hit the report button than just be a bit open minded and laugh.

Keep it up guys we live in the land of the free for now?

[raoulduke666]

well as far as religious debates go...I don't mind. I kinda get tired of reading the same arguments over and over again. Always ends up being a religion vs atheism. And if you agree with anyone, someone else to tell your wrong no matter what. It will never end.

[EmpressStarXVII]

I think the big reason threads are deleted or closed is because the debate cant stay in the constructive area. It always leads to name calling, obvious bashing of certain race, belief, political leaning...etc. If the majourity of posters could remain civilized there wouldn't be a problem.

[MUM24/7]

It has been my experience on UM, that certain debates are deleted on sensitive subjects, i wont mention these debates, but i am sure we have all witnessed them, It is my view, that on an open forum, dedicated to promoting open debate, (as long as it remains constructive) with elements of intellectual merit, that these debates, even if somewhat offensive to the few, but remain balanced and substanciated to the many, should be allowed to continue.

these debates are often related to topics in the field of race, sexuality & religeon......sensitive argumemnts indeed, but they should not be treated like a political hot potatos....

It seems again, that when the minorities complain, they overpower the majorities right to speak

and ultimately the values that have made the west the haven of ultimate freedeom, which exsits from freedom of expression, even if unpalletable to some....

For once we agree on something.....There's hope for us yet....

[libertyworld]

I've said before I prefer to let the foam fly. Shows us all who is made of what.

I feel strongly that the forum should be less moderated rather than more. Over time, the members seem to moderate it pretty well themselves. I recently practically taunted the moderators and admin. in order to play the lightning rod, (and took my smacking down for it) just to see if they had much to say about how badly certain members are allowed to get away with nearly anything. Not really anything to say. No big deal to me though. I just use said members against themselves and enjoy every bit of it.

I've had at least one topic get it's legs cut out from under it just for indulging in some biting satire...

Felt at the time it was a cowardly move.

Got over it and moved on, though with a bit less respect for the hand that slashed it.

Some forums have a "shark tank" or similar room where everything is totally unmoderated. Got to agree to that before entering.

There is a place in the world for telling it like you see it, regardless of who might get their little feelies hurt...

There is also great value in conducting ourselves like ladies and gentlemen most of the time.

A time and place for both, I think...

To everything there is a season.

I think many of us have about had it up to our eyeballs with whimpy whiney PC sensitivities about offensive this and offensive that.

The adult world is not a place for those easily offended.

And too many today act like certain subjects are simply not allowed, constitute hate speech or bigotry, etc...

I'll take more freedom as apposed to less, (not absolute freedom which is foolish) and risk a bruise or two now and then.

Those are some of my feelings on the matter.

Edited October 27, 2007 by libertyworld

[Kismit]

LordScrummage,

I am not sure what you wish to achieve with this thread. You did read the terms of service when you joined U.M. didn't you? A thread is only ever deleted when it has over stepped what the moderator believes to be the boundaries. All too aften people treat U.M. like the intellectual be all and end all, their own egos tend to over ride the rights of the majority who post here. And a poster will begin to arrogantly insult and rudely prosyletise their beliefs. The worst material is often removed seperately and individual poster are warned privately with no interference to the actual debate.

However seeing as U.M. is a privately run site manned by un paid volunteers who do this in there spare time, if a thread becomes too difficult to deal with it will be removed. I guess the answer is as simple as..... If the posters follow the Terms of Service and show respect for each other without letting their egos loose, then the threads stay up and the debates take place.

Questions for you..

Who is reponsible for the removal of the thread? The posters who do not follow the terms of service or the moderators who are here to make sure that the Terms of service are followed? If you agree to abide by the Terms of Service which is a pre requisite are you not then expected to do exactly that. Or do we no longer hold the individual responsible for thier actions?

and because a few can't handle themselves the many should suffer, sounds just like the real world. so i guess we cannot escape the protection of the weak and mindless

Escape the protection of the weak and mindless? You may wish to elaborate on this. Of course that would only be if you really are up to debating in an adult fashion.

[GreyWeather]

I'm not afraid of a low down dirty debate. And I've never reported anyone.. and I can take it...

A good put down is funny aimed at me..

But yeah sure, stay within the rules...of course, but it does seem as if there's a hardcore minority..who, rather than debate, will instead complain.. to the powers that be, and use the subjective grey area of the rules to shut down thread..or have it deleted.

Seems there's more freedom/balance in the World section; probably due to a top/balanced moderator(s)..

But, I've seen threads disappear which I don't understand why or see anything wrong with the subject;in fact some of these subjects need debating.

Gotta agree there, the space threads are greatly handled also. I agree to the original post as well as yours.

It seems debating is meant to be very PC - IE: "Don't you dare tell them they're wrong, even though the evidence is against them, we're all correct here".

(Kismit VVV)

Who is reponsible for the removal of the thread? The posters who do not follow the terms of service or the moderators who are here to make sure that the Terms of service are followed? If you agree to abide by the Terms of Service which is a pre requisite are you not then expected to do exactly that. Or do we no longer hold the individual responsible for thier actions?

Then why not PM the person(s) in question and if it carries on further, delete THEIR flaming posts and temp ban them from that particular thread until they learn better. Other than deleting a whole thread which nine times out of ten the majority of posters are following the rules, besides the two people flaming at each other.

Edited October 27, 2007 by Chokmah

[Kismit]

Then why not PM the person(s) in question and if it carries on further, delete THEIR flaming posts and temp ban them from that particular thread until they learn better. Other than deleting a whole thread which nine times out of ten the majority of posters are following the rules, besides the two people flaming at each other.

That's exactly what we do, the Moderators have their very own set of rules they must follow in order to protect the rights of the Posters. However once the above mentioned options have been used up then we are left with no chocie but to remove the thread in its entirety.

*If I run a view new threads search right now, how many controversial debates will I find currently taking place un surpressed at U.M.? It seems that lordscrummage who is not well known for his balanced views on Liberals who (quote) make him sick to the bone and liberals being pretty much anyone who disagrees with his own right wing views, may be does need to review the terms of service.

Of course there is this one

2h. Agenda posting: Do not use the forum to promote an agenda. This often involves the starting of threads or making posts which appear to be legitimate in nature but which are aimed at surreptitiously promoting some political view, religious belief or to attack or criticise other members, beliefs or views in an underhand manor which detracts from unbiased and fair discussion

and then there is

5.Moderator action

Unexplained Mysteries is a privately owned web site and as such we reserve the right to remove any post that we deem to be inappropriate, offensive or intentionally disruptive, or to take any action necessary against any member whose behaviour we deem to be inappropriate, offensive or intentionally disruptive. Action taken is done on a case by case basis and is dependant on the nature and severity of the violations, but can include anything up to the banning of the account and IP address.

By using the forum service you agree to the following:

5a. Compliance: You agree to co-operate with the requests of our site staff should you be asked to stop doing something that they deem to be disruptive, inappropriate or in violation of the terms of service.

5b. Protest: You agree not to attack, harrass, threaten or become abusive towards any member of staff. Members who become offensive or participate in harassing, threatening or retaliatory action against a member of staff will be subject to further action. All our moderators are volunteers who give up their own free time to keep the forum a safe and friendly place, please treat them with the respect that they deserve.

5c. Appeal: If you disagree with action taken against your account by a member of staff you can appeal the decision by contacting either the member of staff who took said action or an administrator privately via e-mail or through our private message system. Do not start threads on the forum questioning or criticising moderator action.

*Answer = 8. Eight contreversial threads including this one, un surpressed and still fully accsesible on the first page alone.

Edited October 27, 2007 by Kismit

[WatchingMother]

I do get tired of the "I'm smarter than you, better than you" comments and when I see them, on to the next thread I go.... I already know it will be deleted so I don't bother to post.

Then why not PM the person(s) in question and if it carries on further, delete THEIR flaming posts and temp ban them from that particular thread until they learn better. Other than deleting a whole thread which nine times out of ten the majority of posters are following the rules, besides the two people flaming at each other.

I agree this is a better alternative to deleting the thread. BUT the mods are here on their own time(VOLUNTEERS), they don't have the time to babysit so called adults who "debate" their egos instead of the topic at hand.

[Kismit]

Thankyou watching Mother.

You snuck in before I edited my post for Chokma , so I will just make the point again that a thread is only deleted when all other options have been exhausted.

[The Gremlin]

I think kismit has it in a nutshell here, and the consensus seems to agree.

Is freedom to debate freedom to abuse? freedom to demonise? Is it too PC to ask for the bigotry and xenophobia of the few moronic individuals (which breaches the terms and conditions all members agreed to upon joining the forum) to be moderated for the many who would prefer a constructive debate which is not led completely off track by the 'tactics' of the few interested in baiting, goading and the disruption of constructive dialogue?

from what i have seen on this site the mods are pretty tolerent of these few individuals and give them more than enough rope; when fun turns nasty and abusive they often step in with polite warnings, and if a post is particularly offensive they may delete the post, and PM the offending member who has crossed the line of acceptability. If a thread is designed to bait or offend with no constructive line of debate in mind it is rightly deleted. Those who feel hard done by for having posts or threads deleted for the above reasons should rather look to themselves and their motives for being members here.

[GreyWeather]

Thankyou watching Mother.

You snuck in before I edited my post for Chokma , so I will just make the point again that a thread is only deleted when all other options have been exhausted.

But that's rarely the case. The flamers get a quick warning then the thread is instantly locked or deleted.

Where-as warning the flamer(s) ->>- deletion of their flaming posts ->>- second warning ->>- deletion of their flaming posts ->>- temp ban for the flamers from the thread = would mean no need to disrupt a perfect debating thread which other members could be doing as well as ignoring the flamers, instead of deleting the thread as a whole because you can't handle the flamer ignoring you. It's rather silly - when I'm sure you can ban a member from accessing a thread anyway. Which would be a far brighter solution to the problematic situation.

(By my typing of "you" I am not addressing yourself but the whole mod team / admin(s) (you never know when Daz is around) )

[AmazingAtheist]

It has been my experience on UM, that certain debates are deleted on sensitive subjects, i wont mention these debates, but i am sure we have all witnessed them, It is my view, that on an open forum, dedicated to promoting open debate, (as long as it remains constructive) with elements of intellectual merit, that these debates, even if somewhat offensive to the few, but remain balanced and substanciated to the many, should be allowed to continue.

these debates are often related to topics in the field of race, sexuality & religeon......sensitive argumemnts indeed, but they should not be treated like a political hot potatos....

It seems again, that when the minorities complain, they overpower the majorities right to speak

and ultimately the values that have made the west the haven of ultimate freedeom, which exsits from freedom of expression, even if unpalletable to some....

I agree.

One guy made a thread on all the parts of the Bible that were just plain lies .. ( Eg. 6,000 year old earth )

And The Mod Irish closed it.

Notice Irish isn't an atheist

>.>

<.<

Suspicious much?

[Kismit]

It's allright Chokma I don't take it as a presonal attack, I am one of those people who genuinely enjoys a good debate.

We do not currently have the ability to ban a member from acsessing a thread, we also do not have the man power or desire to police every post or thread as it comes in, posters are expected to follow the rules.

There are also some threads that people post which are against forum rules. Like topics on drugs and suicide. It is a sad reality that when working as a moderator on any internet site you do get to see the worst that society has to offer. This is thankfully not usually on the forums long enough for the general public which includes children to see or have to deal with. Over the years we have experienced some very nasty stuff which has forced us to make rules which declare some subjects rightfully, taboo.

[Kismit]

One guy made a thread on all the parts of the Bible that were just plain lies .. ( Eg. 6,000 year old earth )

And The Mod Irish closed it.

Notice Irish isn't an atheist

>.>

<.<

Suspicious much?

Be as suspicious as you like as I mentioned earlier the Moderators must follow their own set of rules, to protect the rights of posters. Irish is well within his rights to close a thread regardless of his religious choice.

And This particular volunteer has bills to pay, I will come back and check on this thread after I have finished at my real job. Goodnight all.

Edited October 27, 2007 by Kismit