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How do skeptics explain Qi Gong


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#91    jsowersby

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 06:32 PM

View PostRyu, on 04 September 2012 - 11:10 PM, said:

The problem is that the mind can be a very deceptive thing indeed and a person can fully believe that acupuncture is actually doing something when it is far more plausible that it is doing nothing at all except making money for the practitioner.

See..I fell for the acupuncture thing too and in the end it really didn't do anything...I only thought it did then I noticed that after my "treatments" nothing really changed. I tried to be neutral about it but i suppose in the back of my mind I wanted it to work and thus deceived myself.




Good. Everyone should be doing that; it doesn't take dubious woo practices to be healthy.

Not every acupuncturist knows what they are doing, same for doctors. Acupuncture cured me of shoulder bursitis with 10 daily treatments after having my arm in a sling for a month. Never had trouble with it again. The Western doctors were planning to do surgery, which when I thought about made no sense. If inflammation is causing the pain surgery would only make the inflammation worse, logically. The sad truth was surgery=money for the doctor's office. My acupuncture treatments totaled $90.


#92    jsowersby

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 06:42 PM

View Postbmk1245, on 05 September 2012 - 04:33 PM, said:

I'll repeat myself: I don't care any more how adults get their Darwin awards. If you want to follow whatever mumbo-jumbo, thats your choice.
BTW how many endangered species are used for Chinese, etc. medicine, huh?

More people become addicted to painkillers than are cured of their pain. I've been addicted to them before I learned about acupuncture. Pain meds are a good example, they cover up the problem and do nothing to cure it. Quite often when the patient is cut off of his opiates by the doctor they turn to buying the pills in the street and find that heroin is cheaper than black market pharmaceutical pain killers like oxycontin. Darwin award? You obviously know very little about Chinese medicine. The use of endangered animals might be common in China, I don't know. The herbs they use are very effective, where do you think all medications come from?


#93    jsowersby

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 06:46 PM

View PostArbitran, on 05 September 2012 - 07:46 AM, said:

Qi Gong and the like have always interested me. I've heard some very interesting hypotheses, and seen some very unusual things, and as a biologist, I must admit, there might be something there we haven't seen yet. But it would be dishonest and unscientific of me to say that I outright believe in it; because I can't really do that until I measure it conclusively, can I? In any case, the possibility is fascinating.

There definitely needs to be more study. Isn't prana similar in definition to qi?I don't think qi itself can be measured. It's effects can however, heat from hands, galvanic skin response, brain waves, EMF maybe?


#94    jsowersby

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 06:49 PM

A video from ABC news and a website with many scientific studies http://www.qigongins...html/papers.php

http://abcnews.go.co...laylist=1363743

Edited by jsowersby, 05 September 2012 - 06:55 PM.


#95    Arbitran

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 12:06 AM

View Postjsowersby, on 05 September 2012 - 06:46 PM, said:

There definitely needs to be more study. Isn't prana similar in definition to qi?I don't think qi itself can be measured. It's effects can however, heat from hands, galvanic skin response, brain waves, EMF maybe?

As a Hindu, yes, I would define prana and qi as one in the same. The nadis are also equated with the meridians. I do find it all fascinating, whether it's real or not.

Try to realize it's all within yourself / No-one else can make you change / And to see you're really only very small / And life flows on within you and without you. / We were talking about the love that's gone so cold and the people / Who gain the world and lose their soul / They don't know they can't see are you one of them? / When you've seen beyond yourself then you may find peace of mind / Is waiting there / And the time will come / when you see we're all one and life flows on within you and without you. ~ George Harrison

#96    bmk1245

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 09:51 PM

View Postjsowersby, on 05 September 2012 - 06:42 PM, said:

More people become addicted to painkillers than are cured of their pain.[...]
Numbers, please. With sources.


View Postjsowersby, on 05 September 2012 - 06:42 PM, said:

[...] I've been addicted to them before I learned about acupuncture. Pain meds are a good example, they cover up the problem and do nothing to cure it. Quite often when the patient is cut off of his opiates by the doctor they turn to buying the pills in the street and find that heroin is cheaper than black market pharmaceutical pain killers like oxycontin.[...]
Are you sure you will not be addicted to "chinese" medicine? Seems to me you are the case.


View Postjsowersby, on 05 September 2012 - 06:42 PM, said:

[...]Darwin award? You obviously know very little about Chinese medicine. The use of endangered animals might be common in China, I don't know. The herbs they use are very effective, where do you think all medications come from?
Herbs do work. So what? What herbs have to do with qi/chi/whatever bullcrap. And, BTW, can you post life expectancy/child mortality rates in China, say, 30 years ago, and nowadays huh?

Arguing with fool is like playing chess with pigeon: he will scatter pieces, peck King's crown, crap on bishop, and fly away bragging how he won the game... (heard once, author unknown).
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If yesterday you would have stood up proud. Then why tonight have you thrown in with the stoning crowd? (Cradle of Filth)

#97    bmk1245

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 09:57 PM

View Postjsowersby, on 05 September 2012 - 06:49 PM, said:

A video from ABC news and a website with many scientific studies http://www.qigongins...html/papers.php

http://abcnews.go.co...laylist=1363743
Your source is ABC news with dubious list? List of sources you can count on your fingers? Wow... That must really work. Snake-oil salesmen won't starve to death, nor their children...

Arguing with fool is like playing chess with pigeon: he will scatter pieces, peck King's crown, crap on bishop, and fly away bragging how he won the game... (heard once, author unknown).
Zhoom! What was that? That was your life, Mate! Oh, that was quick. Do I get another? Sorry, Mate. That's your lot. Basil Fawlty (John Cleese).
If yesterday you would have stood up proud. Then why tonight have you thrown in with the stoning crowd? (Cradle of Filth)

#98    Timonthy

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 12:49 PM

So no one on these forums knows anyone in the greater Melbourne area who would be willing to put their 'known' beliefs on the line against a regular guy?

I'd love to get knocked out by an energy ball!

And I washed my car today so it's extra shiny and show-offable to the Qi masters.

Posted Image


#99    notoverrated

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 12:59 PM






ow.......

edit: i think its mostly just conditioning and no real magic power type stuff, you guys would be surprised how much stronger and tougher your body can become if you just train it.

Edited by notoverrated, 09 September 2012 - 01:12 PM.

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#100    Timonthy

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 02:36 PM

View Postnotoverrated, on 09 September 2012 - 12:59 PM, said:






ow.......

edit: i think its mostly just conditioning and no real magic power type stuff, you guys would be surprised how much stronger and tougher your body can become if you just train it.
It's all technique, no magic. Magic's a nice concept though.

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#101    jsowersby

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 07:25 PM

View Postbmk1245, on 08 September 2012 - 09:51 PM, said:

Numbers, please. With sources.


Are you sure you will not be addicted to "chinese" medicine? Seems to me you are the case.


Herbs do work. So what? What herbs have to do with qi/chi/whatever bullcrap. And, BTW, can you post life expectancy/child mortality rates in China, say, 30 years ago, and nowadays huh?

    Number of Reported Unintentional Poisoning Deaths With Mention of Opioid Analgesics, 2001-2006



Posted Image
Source: Center for Disease Control and Prevention, National Center for Health Statistics.

    Governmental Statistics Show Widespread Use By All Age Groups

Posted ImageToday, a decade later, recent governmental statistics reveal that pain medication addiction is growing into a national epidemic. In 2009, government statistics indicated that over 5 million Americans were commonly abusing pain relievers. The most recent data from the DEA now estimates over 7 million people in the US are abusing prescription drugs. The death rate from painkillers is now over 15,000 people every year and that is a fourfold increase in less than a decade. Painkiller related deaths are now higher than cocaine and heroin combined. The most alarming aspect of these government reports was that the projected potential scope of the problem is the future. The reports indicated that for the first time (with the exception of nicotine and alcohol) that a substance was being widely used and abused by all groups in our society ranging in age from teenagers to senior citizens. When you stop and consider that more than 50 million Americans are believed to suffer from some sort of chronic pain, you realize how big our nation's pain medication epidemic could grow in the future.


China's under 5 mortality rates are higher across the board, they also have higher population. 4.31 times our population. The U.S has 8 deaths per 1000 people, China has 18 deaths per 1000, if you multiplied our population by 4.31 to match theirs our rate would be 34.48 deaths under 5 years old per 1000.
http://data.worldban...display=default

The herbs in used in Chinese medicine are non-narcotic but like anything else, can be abused or misused. Typically my Chinese doctor gives me topical ointments for pain, that work great for bruises, inflammation by helping the tissue to heal and not simply masking the pain. Synthetic heroin, also known as oxycontin is extremely addictive, only masks the pain, and does nothing to heal tissue damage.

Qi is the foundation of Chinese medicine. Imbalance of qi causes illness. If you want to have an opinion about something maybe you should learn at least something about it first.  http://nccam.nih.gov...re-for-pain.htm

BTW being a dick doesn't make you sound more intelligent.

Edited by jsowersby, 11 September 2012 - 07:28 PM.


#102    bmk1245

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 01:30 AM

View Postjsowersby, on 11 September 2012 - 07:25 PM, said:

Number of Reported Unintentional Poisoning Deaths With Mention of Opioid Analgesics, 2001-2006



Posted Image
Source: Center for Disease Control and Prevention, National Center for Health Statistics.

Governmental Statistics Show Widespread Use By All Age Groups

Posted ImageToday, a decade later, recent governmental statistics reveal that pain medication addiction is growing into a national epidemic. In 2009, government statistics indicated that over 5 million Americans were commonly abusing pain relievers. The most recent data from the DEA now estimates over 7 million people in the US are abusing prescription drugs. The death rate from painkillers is now over 15,000 people every year and that is a fourfold increase in less than a decade. Painkiller related deaths are now higher than cocaine and heroin combined. The most alarming aspect of these government reports was that the projected potential scope of the problem is the future. The reports indicated that for the first time (with the exception of nicotine and alcohol) that a substance was being widely used and abused by all groups in our society ranging in age from teenagers to senior citizens. When you stop and consider that more than 50 million Americans are believed to suffer from some sort of chronic pain, you realize how big our nation's pain medication epidemic could grow in the future.
[...]
I have no doubt that if you'll abuse your so adored Chinese remedies, you may end up dead as well.


View Postjsowersby, on 11 September 2012 - 07:25 PM, said:

[...]
China's under 5 mortality rates are higher across the board, they also have higher population. 4.31 times our population. The U.S has 8 deaths per 1000 people, China has 18 deaths per 1000, if you multiplied our population by 4.31 to match theirs our rate would be 34.48 deaths under 5 years old per 1000.
http://data.worldban...display=default
[...]
Posted Image
Oh, man... That's rich!!!
I took snapshot of your post, for future generations...
Hysterical!!!


View Postjsowersby, on 11 September 2012 - 07:25 PM, said:

[...]
The herbs in used in Chinese medicine are non-narcotic but like anything else, can be abused or misused. Typically my Chinese doctor gives me topical ointments for pain, that work great for bruises, inflammation by helping the tissue to heal and not simply masking the pain. Synthetic heroin, also known as oxycontin is extremely addictive, only masks the pain, and does nothing to heal tissue damage.

Qi is the foundation of Chinese medicine. Imbalance of qi causes illness. If you want to have an opinion about something maybe you should learn at least something about it first.  http://nccam.nih.gov...re-for-pain.htm
[...]
How do you know ointments given to you aren't masking pain, but healing? I had many bruises, I had back pains, and they healed without any kind of treatment. Miracle!!! And how about view from the different angle?


View Postjsowersby, on 11 September 2012 - 07:25 PM, said:

[...]
BTW being a dick doesn't make you sound more intelligent.
Being a believer in dubous/BS stuff makes you very crappy mathematician.

Arguing with fool is like playing chess with pigeon: he will scatter pieces, peck King's crown, crap on bishop, and fly away bragging how he won the game... (heard once, author unknown).
Zhoom! What was that? That was your life, Mate! Oh, that was quick. Do I get another? Sorry, Mate. That's your lot. Basil Fawlty (John Cleese).
If yesterday you would have stood up proud. Then why tonight have you thrown in with the stoning crowd? (Cradle of Filth)

#103    jsowersby

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 03:38 PM

View Postbmk1245, on 12 September 2012 - 01:30 AM, said:

I have no doubt that if you'll abuse your so adored Chinese remedies, you may end up dead as well.



Posted Image
Oh, man... That's rich!!!
I took snapshot of your post, for future generations...
Hysterical!!!


How do you know ointments given to you aren't masking pain, but healing? I had many bruises, I had back pains, and they healed without any kind of treatment. Miracle!!! And how about view from the different angle?


Being a believer in dubous/BS stuff makes you very crappy mathematician.

People can die by abusing almost anything that can be ingested. Aspirin, alcohol. The point you are missing is the addictive nature of, for example, opiates that treat pain and benzodiazpines that treat anxiety. Chinese medicine can cure pain and most anxiety without the risk of becoming addicted. Opiates even if taken as prescribed can lead to dependence.

When it's chronic pain, it does not go away. Everyone has back pain at some point in time but not everyone's pain goes away on it's own. Why take addictive pain medications? The answer is our medical system is a for profit system. There is money in prolonging illness which pain medications excel at. I know the ointments work after using them post surgery on numerous occasions and for strained muscles. Electric balm cured my mother's carpal tunnel in 2 weeks after years of seeing her western doctor who was pushing for surgery.

My math skills may lack but logically it is better to cure the root of illness rather than treat symptoms. But don't beleive me, when you have surgery and are detoxing from opiate withdrawals and crave another pill, remember what I've said. I'm done debating you, you know nothing about Chinese medicine and do not offer any real information, just pompous BS.


#104    White Crane Feather

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 03:58 PM

View Postjsowersby, on 11 September 2012 - 07:25 PM, said:



    Number of Reported Unintentional Poisoning Deaths With Mention of Opioid Analgesics, 2001-2006



Posted Image
Source: Center for Disease Control and Prevention, National Center for Health Statistics.

    Governmental Statistics Show Widespread Use By All Age Groups

Posted ImageToday, a decade later, recent governmental statistics reveal that pain medication addiction is growing into a national epidemic. In 2009, government statistics indicated that over 5 million Americans were commonly abusing pain relievers. The most recent data from the DEA now estimates over 7 million people in the US are abusing prescription drugs. The death rate from painkillers is now over 15,000 people every year and that is a fourfold increase in less than a decade. Painkiller related deaths are now higher than cocaine and heroin combined. The most alarming aspect of these government reports was that the projected potential scope of the problem is the future. The reports indicated that for the first time (with the exception of nicotine and alcohol) that a substance was being widely used and abused by all groups in our society ranging in age from teenagers to senior citizens. When you stop and consider that more than 50 million Americans are believed to suffer from some sort of chronic pain, you realize how big our nation's pain medication epidemic could grow in the future.


China's under 5 mortality rates are higher across the board, they also have higher population. 4.31 times our population. The U.S has 8 deaths per 1000 people, China has 18 deaths per 1000, if you multiplied our population by 4.31 to match theirs our rate would be 34.48 deaths under 5 years old per 1000.
http://data.worldban...display=default

The herbs in used in Chinese medicine are non-narcotic but like anything else, can be abused or misused. Typically my Chinese doctor gives me topical ointments for pain, that work great for bruises, inflammation by helping the tissue to heal and not simply masking the pain. Synthetic heroin, also known as oxycontin is extremely addictive, only masks the pain, and does nothing to heal tissue damage.

Qi is the foundation of Chinese medicine. Imbalance of qi causes illness. If you want to have an opinion about something maybe you should learn at least something about it first.  http://nccam.nih.gov...re-for-pain.htm

BTW being a dick doesn't make you sound more intelligent.
I hate de da jao that stuff is horrible... But it works.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#105    bmk1245

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 05:25 PM

View Postjsowersby, on 12 September 2012 - 03:38 PM, said:

People can die by abusing almost anything that can be ingested. Aspirin, alcohol. The point you are missing is the addictive nature of, for example, opiates that treat pain and benzodiazpines that treat anxiety. Chinese medicine can cure pain and most anxiety without the risk of becoming addicted. Opiates even if taken as prescribed can lead to dependence.
[...]
Curing the causes of the pain or just masking the pain? So again, why there are such death toll (under 5 year olds) differences in China and say Sweden, Norway etc, if Chinese medicine is so powerful, huh?

View Postjsowersby, on 12 September 2012 - 03:38 PM, said:

[...]When it's chronic pain, it does not go away. Everyone has back pain at some point in time but not everyone's pain goes away on it's own. Why take addictive pain medications? The answer is our medical system is a for profit system. There is money in prolonging illness which pain medications excel at. I know the ointments work after using them post surgery on numerous occasions and for strained muscles. Electric balm cured my mother's carpal tunnel in 2 weeks after years of seeing her western doctor who was pushing for surgery.
[...]
Let me ask what is more profitable: years of research/development/clinical trials, or simply putting some herbs and selling them, huh? Heh, until there are believers, cons won't starve.

View Postjsowersby, on 12 September 2012 - 03:38 PM, said:

[...]
My math skills may lack but logically it is better to cure the root of illness rather than treat symptoms. But don't beleive me, when you have surgery and are detoxing from opiate withdrawals and crave another pill, remember what I've said. I'm done debating you, you know nothing about Chinese medicine and do not offer any real information, just pompous BS.
Pompous BS mostly comes from your side. And following your "logic" in Liechtenstein should be 74000 deaths under 5 year olds  per thousand of population.

Arguing with fool is like playing chess with pigeon: he will scatter pieces, peck King's crown, crap on bishop, and fly away bragging how he won the game... (heard once, author unknown).
Zhoom! What was that? That was your life, Mate! Oh, that was quick. Do I get another? Sorry, Mate. That's your lot. Basil Fawlty (John Cleese).
If yesterday you would have stood up proud. Then why tonight have you thrown in with the stoning crowd? (Cradle of Filth)




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