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Aristotle against existence of Atlantis? No!

aristotle plato atlantis history of science

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#121    docyabut2

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 06:09 AM

Critias-Yet, before proceeding further in the narrative, I ought to warn you, that you must not be surprised if you should perhaps hear Hellenic names given to foreigners. I will tell you the reason of this: Solon, who was intending to use the tale for his poem, enquired into the meaning of the names, and found that the early Egyptians in writing them down had translated them into their own language, and he recovered the meaning of the several names and when copying them out again translated them into our language. My great-grandfather, Dropides, had the original writing, which is still in my possession, and was carefully studied by me when I was a child. Therefore if you hear names such as are used in this country, you must not be surprised, for I have told how they came to be introduced. The tale, which was of great length, began as follows:-



It appears Solon only wrote the translated meaning of the names down that were in Critias`s possession, not the whole tale.

And the sea Posidion had intercourse with Kleito, breaking  the land.  The name Keftiu so similar was a Egyptain name for Crete


#122    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 06:25 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 02 January 2013 - 11:34 PM, said:

Then I missed the joke, sorry "L".

cormac

No problem. Im used to strange look of people when I tell a joke. My jokes are often misunderstood. But I will not stop trying to joke, now and then, because of it. Although I avoid it.

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#123    Proclus

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 11:31 AM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 03 January 2013 - 04:00 AM, said:

proclus here mentioned The Laws and I've shown it heaps of times, the passages that state Plato believes as everyone does in the cyclic rise and fall of cultres due to destruction, which he also places into his story of Atlantis - his aim is to find out how laws and politics begins again after such events - the same premise is behind his Timaeus and Critias imo.

The Laws could indeed be the key to understand the Atlantis dialogues.
Because they contain much of the same written (and unwritten!) content what was planned for these dialogues.
The changes, though, could give a hint why Plato did not finish the Critias.

Academic approaches towards Atlantis as a real place: www.Atlantis-Scout.de!

#124    Abramelin

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 11:48 AM

I couldn't find the post, but I think it was Docyabut2 who said Crete was a candidate for Plato's Atlantis.

All that in connection with the Thera volcano or what's now the island of Santorini.

The main problem with that is that nowhere in Plato's story (an) exploding volcano(es) is mentioned, only earthquakes, mud and sunken land.


#125    docyabut2

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 12:12 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 03 January 2013 - 11:48 AM, said:

I couldn't find the post, but I think it was Docyabut2 who said Crete was a candidate for Plato's Atlantis.

All that in connection with the Thera volcano or what's now the island of Santorini.

The main problem with that is that nowhere in Plato's story (an) exploding volcano(es) is mentioned, only earthquakes, mud and sunken land.

The Egyptain priest did say to Solon (There have been, and will be again, many destructions of mankind arising out of many causes; the greatest have been brought about by the agencies of fire and water)

I believe the Egyptian priest didn`t know excatly what a volcano was and described it as fire and water.


#126    Abramelin

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 12:31 PM

View Postdocyabut2, on 03 January 2013 - 12:12 PM, said:

The Egyptain priest did say to Solon (There have been, and will be again, many destructions of mankind arising out of many causes; the greatest have been brought about by the agencies of fire and water)

I believe the Egyptian priest didn`t know excatly what a volcano was and described it as fire and water.

Yeah, but Atlantis was supposedly destroyed by water and earthquakes, not fire.


#127    Proclus

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 01:01 PM

View Postdocyabut2, on 03 January 2013 - 12:12 PM, said:

I believe the Egyptian priest didn`t know excatly what a volcano was and described it as fire and water.

No, the fire catastrophe is a change in the sun's orbit, as can be seen by the Phaethon myth told there.

View PostAbramelin, on 03 January 2013 - 12:31 PM, said:

Yeah, but Atlantis was supposedly destroyed by water and earthquakes, not fire.

Exactly.

Academic approaches towards Atlantis as a real place: www.Atlantis-Scout.de!

#128    The Puzzler

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 01:05 PM

View PostProclus, on 03 January 2013 - 11:31 AM, said:

The Laws could indeed be the key to understand the Atlantis dialogues.
Because they contain much of the same written (and unwritten!) content what was planned for these dialogues.
The changes, though, could give a hint why Plato did not finish the Critias.
Personally, without knowing some exact proof of otherwise, I think that Critias IS finished. In my opinion we have to work out what Zeus spake, Plato is not going to tell us - because that is the answer to how people in Plato's eyes should behave once more, Plato knows what Zeus will speak, but does the reader? Philosophy is all about asking questions, figuring things out, that's how I see it, therefore have concluded that Critias might indeed be a finished work.
Plato liked riddles.
I agree the Laws can give insight into the Atlantis dialogues, certainly.

Zeus, the god of gods, who rules according to law, and is able to see into such things, perceiving that an honourable race was in a woeful plight, and wanting to inflict punishment on them, that they might be chastened and improve,collected all the gods into their most holy habitation, which, being placed in the centre of the world, beholds all created things. And when he had called them together, he spake as follows-* The rest of the Dialogue of Critias has been lost.

Has it? or what did Zeus speak?

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#129    The Puzzler

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 01:09 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 03 January 2013 - 12:31 PM, said:

Yeah, but Atlantis was supposedly destroyed by water and earthquakes, not fire.
Thinking about this endlessly, I wonder if most only knew of the earthquakes preceeding the eruption as what actually sank the island of Thera, apparently the island was evacuated so the earthquake would be what most remembered, rather than the eruption.

--------------------------

Edit to add:

What is the deluge/cataclysm the Greeks DID recall?
Which one is this referring to does anyone think?


he began to tell about the most ancient things in our part of the world-about Phoroneus, who is called "the first man," and about Niobe; and after the Deluge, of the survival of Deucalion and Pyrrha; and he traced the genealogy of their descendants, and reckoning up the dates, tried to compute how many years ago the events of which he was speaking happened.

In the first place you remember a single deluge only, but there were many previous ones;

What would have been Deucalions Flood - the one the Greeks remembered?

Edited by The Puzzler, 03 January 2013 - 01:55 PM.

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#130    Abramelin

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 01:40 PM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 03 January 2013 - 01:09 PM, said:

Thinking about this endlessly, I wonder if most only knew of the earthquakes preceeding the eruption as what actually sank the island of Thera, apparently the island was evacuated so the earthquake would be what most remembered, rather than the eruption.

You think so? They found deposits of pumice in the Nile delta and elsewhere. Those who were able to flee Thera must have told about it: it was one of the largest eruptions in human history.


#131    Proclus

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 01:49 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 03 January 2013 - 01:40 PM, said:

You think so? They found deposits of pumice in the Nile delta and elsewhere. Those who were able to flee Thera must have told about it: it was one of the largest eruptions in human history.

Yes, and think of the cloud: It must have been impressive.

Academic approaches towards Atlantis as a real place: www.Atlantis-Scout.de!

#132    The Puzzler

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 02:09 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 03 January 2013 - 01:40 PM, said:

You think so? They found deposits of pumice in the Nile delta and elsewhere. Those who were able to flee Thera must have told about it: it was one of the largest eruptions in human history.
Yes, I agree, but maybe it was earthquakes that actually sunk most of the island before the eruption..? The people fleed when the island was breaking up from earthquakes and being inundated with water - yes, knowledge of the eruption would have been widespread but it could be a loophole as to how Thera if saying to be Atlantis could sink by earthquakes and flood rather than volcano, not mentioned by Plato - because the people who landed on Egyptian shores...? only knew they left because it was sinking and inundated.

Personally I don't think Crete is Atlantis but haven't ruled it out completely, there would have to be more loopholes...

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#133    The Puzzler

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 02:11 PM

Is Thera Deucalions Flood?

To add:

On the basis of the archaeological stele known as the Parian Chronicle, Deucalion's Flood was usually fixed as occurring sometime around c. 1528 BC. Deucalion's flood may be dated in the chronology of Saint Jerome to ca. 1460 BC. According to Augustine of Hippo (City of God XVIII,8,10,&11) Deucalion and his father Prometheus were contemporaries of Moses. According to Clement of Alexandria in his Stromata, "...in the time of Crotopus occurred the burning of Phaethon, and the deluges of Deucalion."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deucalion

Edited by The Puzzler, 03 January 2013 - 02:15 PM.

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#134    Proclus

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 02:21 PM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 03 January 2013 - 02:11 PM, said:

Is Thera Deucalions Flood?

To add:

On the basis of the archaeological stele known as the Parian Chronicle, Deucalion's Flood was usually fixed as occurring sometime around c. 1528 BC. Deucalion's flood may be dated in the chronology of Saint Jerome to ca. 1460 BC. According to Augustine of Hippo (City of God XVIII,8,10,&11) Deucalion and his father Prometheus were contemporaries of Moses. According to Clement of Alexandria in his Stromata, "...in the time of Crotopus occurred the burning of Phaethon, and the deluges of Deucalion."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deucalion

Now, according to Plato's cyclical time theory Deucalion's flood was the third flood after Atlantis existend (the one which destroyed Atlantis included).

Academic approaches towards Atlantis as a real place: www.Atlantis-Scout.de!

#135    The Puzzler

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 02:24 PM

View PostProclus, on 03 January 2013 - 02:21 PM, said:

Now, according to Plato's cyclical time theory Deucalion's flood was the third flood after Atlantis existend (the one which destroyed Atlantis included).
That's right - so if it's Thera, that pretty much doesn't make Thera Atlantis.

In an mmm bop it's gone...





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