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What do you think of the Mokele Mbembe?

dinosaurs mokele mbembe cryptozoology cryptid congo

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#16    Clobhair-cean

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 03:01 PM

There is simply no chance for it to be a sauropod. They were particularly ill-suited for both semi-aquatic and forest life, with their long, inflexible necks and tails, massive weight and foot anatomy. Also, there is no evidence that any non-avian dinosaur populations survived the K-T event and the ecological niches where sauropods would fit into are already filled by the African forest elephant and the okapi, among others.

I would also discount the rhino hypothesis. We know of no forest-dwelling rhinos from Africa and due to the immense price one can get for rhino horns these days, I'm pretty sure poachers would have jumped onto what must be the healthiest rhino population of the continent.

I think the mokele mbembe craze is due to overzealous Westerners misunderstanding what the locals said, confusing mythical and real animals and relying on less than useful methods, like the good old "let's show them pictures of sauropods and see what happens" (for one, we now know that no sauropod looked even superficially like what they thought to look like in the 1930s).

Also the local tribes might just be messing with the researchers. The Maasai, for example, are known to habitually make up nonsense when talking to Western anthropologists, for teh lulz.


#17    ReaperS_ParadoX

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 10:08 PM

View Postpsyche101, on 29 November 2012 - 12:24 AM, said:

No, it is not. They evolved at the same time, and Crocodilians outlived Dinosaurs.

They are both Archosaurs, and both come from a common ancestor, in the clade of Archosauria, represented today by birds and crocodiles. This is again broken down to two main clades, Pseudosuchia, which includes crocodilians and their extinct relatives, and Avemetatarsalia, which includes birds and their extinct relatives (such as non-avian dinosaurs and pterosaurs).


LINKS:

Archosauria

Pseudosuchia

Avemetatarsalia

Did Crocodiles Descend From Dinosaurs?
Thanks for the info Psyche much appriciated :tu:

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#18    Insanity

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 10:52 PM

View PostClobhair-cean, on 29 November 2012 - 03:01 PM, said:

Also the local tribes might just be messing with the researchers. The Maasai, for example, are known to habitually make up nonsense when talking to Western anthropologists, for teh lulz.

Anthropologists have noted that native informants do become uninterested and unwilling to answer questions, definitely more so when the questioning becomes  intimate and embarrassing, such as in regards to; family quarrels, sexual relationships, or birth control including abortions, which would not be surprising with any person.  To suggest from this, that a majority of those natives simply lie for the fun of it seems a bit of an overstatement.

"We see things only as we are constructed to see them, and can gain no idea of their absolute nature. With five feeble senses we pretend to comprehend the boundlessly complex cosmos, yet other beings with wider, stronger, or different range of senses might not only see very differently the things we see, but might see and study whole worlds of matter, energy, and life which lie close at hand yet can never be detected with the senses we have." - H.P. Lovecraft, "From Beyond" Published 1934

#19    Clobhair-cean

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 08:47 AM

View PostInsanity, on 29 November 2012 - 10:52 PM, said:

Anthropologists have noted that native informants do become uninterested and unwilling to answer questions, definitely more so when the questioning becomes  intimate and embarrassing, such as in regards to; family quarrels, sexual relationships, or birth control including abortions, which would not be surprising with any person.  To suggest from this, that a majority of those natives simply lie for the fun of it seems a bit of an overstatement.

I'm not saying that a majority does it, but it does happen more often than you'd think, there are many documented examples. Why wouldn't they have some light-hearted fun? I know I would start messing around when the fifteenth anthropologist arrives.


#20    Night Walker

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 10:42 AM

View PostClobhair-cean, on 30 November 2012 - 08:47 AM, said:

I'm not saying that a majority does it, but it does happen more often than you'd think, there are many documented examples. Why wouldn't they have some light-hearted fun? I know I would start messing around when the fifteenth anthropologist arrives.

Furthermore, look what happens when any outsider temporarily joins an insider-group (sport team, work crew, family, circle of friends, etc) - they get screwed with. It's playful rather than malicious and can go on to create and maintain some recurring themes and amazing legends. It's human nature...

Now, does anyone know where I can find a good left-handed screwdriver?

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#21    HMS Dreadnought

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 01:53 PM

Surely it's some sort of African hyrax pretending to be a were-dinosaur?

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#22    Insanity

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 10:51 PM

View PostClobhair-cean, on 30 November 2012 - 08:47 AM, said:

I'm not saying that a majority does it, but it does happen more often than you'd think, there are many documented examples. Why wouldn't they have some light-hearted fun? I know I would start messing around when the fifteenth anthropologist arrives.

If there are many documented examples, would it be too much trouble to reference a few?

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#23    Clobhair-cean

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 02:11 PM

View PostInsanity, on 30 November 2012 - 10:51 PM, said:

If there are many documented examples, would it be too much trouble to reference a few?

Page two of this PDF, for example: http://eprints.lse.a...ography_PhD.pdf

I remember some other instances, but I have to dig them up.


#24    orangepeaceful79

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 03:49 PM

What do I think of Mokele Mbembe?  I think he's plainly rude for pretending to exist while steadfastly supplying no actual evidence that he does.  The jerk.

Edited by orangepeaceful79, 01 December 2012 - 03:50 PM.


#25    Night Walker

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 09:24 PM

View PostClobhair-cean, on 01 December 2012 - 02:11 PM, said:

Page two of this PDF, for example: http://eprints.lse.a...ography_PhD.pdf

I remember some other instances, but I have to dig them up.

The Margaret Mead hoax is a good example:

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Edited by Night Walker, 01 December 2012 - 09:26 PM.

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#26    DieChecker

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 05:28 AM

View PostClobhair-cean, on 29 November 2012 - 03:01 PM, said:

There is simply no chance for it to be a sauropod. They were particularly ill-suited for both semi-aquatic and forest life, with their long, inflexible necks and tails, massive weight and foot anatomy.
Maybe jungle would be a better word? Open woodland was the sauropods environment I thought. The long neck being used to browes from many trees while the body was basically still. Or is this also an old idea?

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#27    Clobhair-cean

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 06:47 AM

View PostDieChecker, on 02 December 2012 - 05:28 AM, said:

Maybe jungle would be a better word? Open woodland was the sauropods environment I thought. The long neck being used to browes from many trees while the body was basically still. Or is this also an old idea?

For example, most North American sauropods are known from the Morrison Formation, which was a large floodplain with occasional patches of forest and generally few trees. I really can't imagine a 20+ metre long, horizontally inflexible animal existing in dense woodland, as it couldn't really move around there.

From where did most sauropods eat is still hotly debated, but yes, they probably grazed on tree leaves. But you don't really see giraffes in a dense forest either. What you have there is the okapi, with a "regular" neck to aid mobility.


#28    DieChecker

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 05:21 AM

View PostClobhair-cean, on 02 December 2012 - 06:47 AM, said:

For example, most North American sauropods are known from the Morrison Formation, which was a large floodplain with occasional patches of forest and generally few trees. I really can't imagine a 20+ metre long, horizontally inflexible animal existing in dense woodland, as it couldn't really move around there.

From where did most sauropods eat is still hotly debated, but yes, they probably grazed on tree leaves. But you don't really see giraffes in a dense forest either. What you have there is the okapi, with a "regular" neck to aid mobility.
Right. But the sauropods wouldn't need such very long necks unless the trees were closer together then their neck is long. Logically they would need to be able to reach multiple trees in order to be more efficent. Unless they also grazed ground cover??

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#29    Clobhair-cean

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 09:51 AM

View PostDieChecker, on 03 December 2012 - 05:21 AM, said:

Right. But the sauropods wouldn't need such very long necks unless the trees were closer together then their neck is long. Logically they would need to be able to reach multiple trees in order to be more efficent. Unless they also grazed ground cover??

That is a possibility, but not for all sauropods. I would doubt that the likes of Brachiosaurus or Sauroposeidon, and others with near-vertical necks would have been low grazers.

But bear in mind that sauropods were a very diverse groups of animals, with huge and relatively small individuals, albeit the latter are generally known from either very old strata or are "special". Like the Magyarosaurus, which was only six metres long (still somewhat unsuited for forest life), but this was due to insular dwarfism. The last sauropods, the titanosaurs, more "regularly" humongous.


#30    psyche101

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 05:37 AM

View PostNight Walker, on 30 November 2012 - 10:42 AM, said:

Furthermore, look what happens when any outsider temporarily joins an insider-group (sport team, work crew, family, circle of friends, etc) - they get screwed with. It's playful rather than malicious and can go on to create and maintain some recurring themes and amazing legends. It's human nature...

In all walks of life. Brilliant exemple. Illustrates the point perfectly. I am sure every person on this board has experienced such to some extent.

View PostNight Walker, on 30 November 2012 - 10:42 AM, said:

Now, does anyone know where I can find a good left-handed screwdriver?

Hrrmzz, where the hell did I Put that!! I just HAD the bloody thing before I put my 9 inch copulation tool back in my pocket and grabbed my metric shifting spanner to remove this square drill bit that I have stuck..........

Edited by psyche101, 05 December 2012 - 05:37 AM.

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