85 replies to this topic

[shaddow134]

and then, on 23 November 2012 - 02:48 AM, said:

I actually do respect the opinions of folks like you shaddow but I have a question.  IF you were to see a war like I described would it have any effect on your thinking?  That Psalm was recorded a couple thousand years ago and it stands a strengthening chance of being fulfilled in our lifetimes - in detail.  But I have a feeling that even if it does, people who can't or don't believe will just blow it off and explain it away.

No,mainly due to the fact that over the centuries the region has seen a lot of conflict for whatever reason.No doubt there will be more in the future but that is down to political and religious divides.Maybe if i was a practicing Christian then i would most likely see it different,who knows?.

At the end of the day a mans religious views are his own and i do honestly respect that even though i may seem a bit intolerant at times.

Chances are there will be a regional conflict in the ME,at some point but this doesn't mean that Armageddon is upon us.

[joc]

The cease fire was authored by the President of Egypt, proud, card carrying member of The Muslim Brotherhood, which is a parent organization to Hamas.
The cease fire will not hold and imo Israel is making a mistake allowing this joker to author anything.  All they are doing is buying time to build up a coalition to fight the ground forces that Israel is massing.

IMO Israel (as soon as Hamas breaks the cease fire) should roll tanks and ground troops into Gaza..take it back..tell the Palestinians to go to Hell...and be done with it.  They gave them land and what do they do?  Use it to fire rockets at Israel.  It is patently ridiculous.  If it were me...I would have obliterated Hamas a long, long time ago.  But it isn't me.
The fact that Hamas has shot over 900 rockets into Israel since this conflict began is astonishing.  Can you image anyone shooting 900 rockets into your country...and your government not responding with absolute overwhelming force?   It's mind boggling.  It really is.

[shaddow134]

WHO U KIDDIN, on 23 November 2012 - 03:01 AM, said:

This ceasefire is just a temporary lull before the big bang.

With his latest Machiavellian maneuvers Netanyahu is preparing the stage for his electoral win in January and his incessant campaign for war with Iran by summer 2013. Operation Pillar biggest success could be measured by how closely Hamas embraces its Arab brethren and begins to distance itself from Iran.  

The recently accepted ceasefire brokered by Egypt’s Morsy with the support of the Arab League and Turkey has at least stopped the bloodshed for now. It certain that Israel will benefit if Egypt, Turkey and the AL nations can pull Hamas into their camp, and lure them away from Iran’s influence.  It is no secret that the major powerbrokers in the AL (the Saudis and the Gulf Kingdoms) have no love for Iran.

If the AL manages to rein in Hamas, and if Assad is overthrown in Syria the only threat remaining to Israel on its border is Lebanon’s Hezbollah. Don’t be too surprise if Lebanon very soon starts unraveling in sectarian violence once again. To anyone with common sense it would appears that all of Iran’s proxies in the area are being neutralized. If true then Netanyahu’s Operation Pillar action may be just the first stage of a future greater war.

Blocked, checked, and mate!  By way of deception, thou shall do war.

There is no denying that the Syrian Situation does complicate matters and Assads fate will be decided by the brewing trouble between Isreal and Iran.If Isreal decides to strike Iran after the Elections then i think there will be a response from Syria as well and then maybe Egypt may feel obliged to Join in as well.The changed political situation in the region has complicated matters a little.

[WHO U KIDDIN]

and then, on 23 November 2012 - 03:14 AM, said:

Your scenario makes sense except for the Syrian piece.  The rebel groups can't even decide who will lead them.  If the US or some Western entity were running them for their own purposes don't you think they'd work out a detail like that?  As it is I suspect an element of the MB or maybe even Salafis will gain the upper hand if and when Assad has assumed room temperature.

That's right Then the rebels can't decide who will lead them because in truth there is no love between the different factions presently aligned against Assad. Unless the UN or the AL was to step in to keep the country united, a Syria without Assad would most probably dissolve into Sunni, Shia, and Christian cantons with the latter two being perhaps aligned since they are the minorities. My point then in my prior posting with Syria in such a dysfunctional state the threat that existed for Israel under a Syria ruled by Assad has been effectively neutralized.

[joc]

shaddow134, on 23 November 2012 - 03:40 AM, said:

There is no denying that the Syrian Situation does complicate matters and Assads fate will be decided by the brewing trouble between Isreal and Iran.If Isreal decides to strike Iran after the Elections then i think there will be a response from Syria as well and then maybe Egypt may feel obliged to Join in as well.The changed political situation in the region has complicated matters a little.

The Syrian Situation and Iran are both moot points.  They are scared to death that Israel is going to invade Gaza with ground forces...why?  Two words.
Iron Dome.

[WHO U KIDDIN]

shaddow134, on 23 November 2012 - 03:40 AM, said:

There is no denying that the Syrian Situation does complicate matters and Assads fate will be decided by the brewing trouble between Isreal and Iran.If Isreal decides to strike Iran after the Elections then i think there will be a response from Syria as well and then maybe Egypt may feel obliged to Join in as well.The changed political situation in the region has complicated matters a little.

Shaddow, even though Egypt, Turkey and the AL have all harshly criticized Israel for their recent action against Hamas, I can't see Morsy taking sides with Syria's Assad (an Alawi Shia) let along Iran against Israel (remember Morsy's is a Sunni and so are all his buddies: Turkey, the Saudis and Gulf Kingdoms which happen to be the main supporters of the Syrian rebels). The realpolitik is that a Shia versus Sunni clash is being orchestrated, a division in the Islamic world which again favors the Israeli, especially in their final goal of neutralizing Iran.

[Black Red Devil]

pallidin, on 22 November 2012 - 10:03 PM, said:

I seriously doubt that this is a "lasting" cease-fire, though I do certainly hope.

So, I wonder who will fire the first shot, or other territorial aggravation, to start this c**p all over again. My thought is Hamas. But it could be Israel.

Any thoughts? As nearly certainly this "peace" will not hold.

You're asking the wrong question.  This conflict won't end with Israel invading Gaza and putting an end to Hamas, or because Hamas has thousands of rockets ready to shoot towards Israel and, as a consequence, they're finally going to pack up and leave.  Nothing will change and both sides know it. So it really doesn't matter who will fire the first shot, what matters is what are they going to do after the last shot (every shot is obviously a concern for the civilian population but that's not what the OP is referring to).

Despite all the doomsayers predictions, Israel would have the world against them if they killed massive amount of civilians in Gaza, even if Hamas kept on firing rockets.  Hamas will never win the propaganda war against Israel because they're resorting to the same violence as Israel is and their "brothers" in the West Bank aren't happy with their reaction. The Arab League is toothless and only looks after the interests of their rich sheiks so don't expect them to run to anyone's aid or get physically involved.  Egypt and Syria have enough on their plate to worry about Gaza.  Hezbolah is struggling to keep foot in Lebanon, in fact they've kept their noses right out of this.  So there will be no outside intervention, third world war or Armageddon.

Therefore after the sufferance, death and anger it's back to the drawing board for these people.  The normal average people....and Hamas.

But, there could be another twist to it.  Israel's right wing Govt is not looking at the drawing board and their interests in this conflict may be going beyond a reaction to Hamas' rockets. Obviously all IMHO, but we all know Israel is looking for an excuse to get to Iran, who they consider a dangerous foe in the region and a rich one as well.  Plenty of oil and gas, strategic position and a thorn in their side because they support and provide weapons to anti-Israeli groups such as Hamas (via Egypt and the MB) and Hezbolah.

How about this imaginery scenario in the next coming week(s). Israel rolls their tanks and ground troops into Gaza, confiscates a nutritious amount of weapons "made in iran", retreats soon after to avoid as many civilian victims as possible, displays their trophy's to the world.  Subsequent condemnation from the US and EU for supporting "terrorism", Support for Hamas wanes, the treatment, discrimination and occupation of Gaza by the Israeli's becomes a secondary issue, Russia's support and position as an ally of Iran is forced to weaken. Israeli war drums against Iran start beating louder and quicker than ever before.....

The bets are on.

Edited by BlackRedLittleDevil, 23 November 2012 - 06:22 AM.

[B Jenkins]

joc, on 23 November 2012 - 03:37 AM, said:

The cease fire was authored by the President of Egypt, proud, card carrying member of The Muslim Brotherhood, which is a parent organization to Hamas.
The cease fire will not hold and imo Israel is making a mistake allowing this joker to author anything.  All they are doing is buying time to build up a coalition to fight the ground forces that Israel is massing.

IMO Israel (as soon as Hamas breaks the cease fire) should roll tanks and ground troops into Gaza..take it back..tell the Palestinians to go to Hell...and be done with it.  They gave them land and what do they do?  Use it to fire rockets at Israel.  It is patently ridiculous.  If it were me...I would have obliterated Hamas a long, long time ago.  But it isn't me.
The fact that Hamas has shot over 900 rockets into Israel since this conflict began is astonishing.  Can you image anyone shooting 900 rockets into your country...and your government not responding with absolute overwhelming force?   It's mind boggling.  It really is.

Equally mind boggling is the rockets and white phosphorous Israel has rained down on Gaza and your government is powerless to respond to it or defend against it because it has no standing army, no armour corps, and no warplanes. It's mind boggling. It really is.

[Black Red Devil]

joc, on 23 November 2012 - 03:37 AM, said:

The cease fire was authored by the President of Egypt, proud, card carrying member of The Muslim Brotherhood, which is a parent organization to Hamas.
The cease fire will not hold and imo Israel is making a mistake allowing this joker to author anything.  All they are doing is buying time to build up a coalition to fight the ground forces that Israel is massing.

IMO Israel (as soon as Hamas breaks the cease fire) should roll tanks and ground troops into Gaza..take it back..tell the Palestinians to go to Hell...and be done with it.  They gave them land and what do they do?  Use it to fire rockets at Israel.  It is patently ridiculous.  If it were me...I would have obliterated Hamas a long, long time ago.  But it isn't me.
The fact that Hamas has shot over 900 rockets into Israel since this conflict began is astonishing.  Can you image anyone shooting 900 rockets into your country...and your government not responding with absolute overwhelming force?   It's mind boggling.  It really is.

Can you also imagine being blockaded and basically imprisoned in your own country by an outside force which forces you into poverty because it limits your progress and development as a nation?  How many rockets would you like to fire against that country?

[B Jenkins]

BlackRedLittleDevil, on 23 November 2012 - 06:31 AM, said:

Can you also imagine being blockaded and basically imprisoned in your own country by an outside force which forces you into poverty because it limits your progress and development as a nation?  How many rockets would you like to fire against that country?

And your sole airstrip is shut down and condemned for years... lies derelict with years of neglect. Your sole airport has ceased to existance entirely. The Gazans have no access outside either by land, sea, or air.

[pallidin]

BlackRedLittleDevil, on 23 November 2012 - 06:31 AM, said:

Can you also imagine being blockaded and basically imprisoned in your own country by an outside force which forces you into poverty because it limits your progress and development as a nation?  How many rockets would you like to fire against that country?

I was not aware that Hamas, in the Gaza strip, has been recognized as a "country" or "nation" of any respectable class.
Are they not a "puppet" of internal and external Islamic radicals bent on destroying Israel? Uh..... yes.

[Black Red Devil]

pallidin, on 23 November 2012 - 07:43 AM, said:

I was not aware that Hamas, in the Gaza strip, has been recognized as a "country" or "nation" of any respectable class.
Are they not a "puppet" of internal and external Islamic radicals bent on destroying Israel? Uh..... yes.

Wrong.  Gaza is a Palestinian Territory and together with the West Bank are recognised as a State by 131 of the 193 countries of the UN.  There was a puppet once and it was Israel, puppet of the US, but now I've almost convinced myself that roles are reversed and the US has become Israel's puppet.

Edited by BlackRedLittleDevil, 23 November 2012 - 09:58 AM.

[pallidin]

BlackRedLittleDevil, on 23 November 2012 - 09:51 AM, said:

Wrong.  Gaza is a Palestinian Territory and together with the West Bank are recognised as a State by 131 of the 193 countries of the UN.  There was a puppet once and it was Israel, puppet of the US, but now I've almost convinced myself that roles are reversed and the US has become Israel's puppet.

However, Hamas is a US recognized terror organization/partner. This is very clear in their recent attacks.
They have NO money, so their arms to attack Israel is coming from somewhere else.

Some other nation(s) are funding the arms to Hamas.

EDIT: It's all about Islamic extremists wanting to take-over the Middle East, and eventually the entire world.

FURTHER EDIT: Free democracy should take over the world.

Edited by pallidin, 23 November 2012 - 10:20 AM.

[ExpandMyMind]

pallidin, on 23 November 2012 - 10:12 AM, said:

However, Hamas is a US recognized terror organization/partner. This is very clear in their recent attacks.
They have NO money, so their arms to attack Israel is coming from somewhere else.

Some other nation(s) are funding the arms to Hamas.

EDIT: It's all about Islamic extremists wanting to take-over the Middle East, and eventually the entire world.

FURTHER EDIT: Free democracy should take over the world.

Lol, they can't even take over India, and there's something like 2 hundred million muslims there...

Take over the World Who comes up with this stuff?

Oh and Hamas receives funding from Iran and some of the Islamic States. And contrary to what most people seem to think, the vast majority of their money is used to provide for the people of Gaza, not to buy rockets. This is why they are loved (they started doing so back in the early 90's, when Fatah were too busy lining their own corrupt pockets at the expense of the citizens - this is primarily what led to the rise of Hamas).

Edited by ExpandMyMind, 23 November 2012 - 10:31 AM.

[and then]

WHO U KIDDIN, on 23 November 2012 - 04:27 AM, said:

That's right Then the rebels can't decide who will lead them because in truth there is no love between the different factions presently aligned against Assad. Unless the UN or the AL was to step in to keep the country united, a Syria without Assad would most probably dissolve into Sunni, Shia, and Christian cantons with the latter two being perhaps aligned since they are the minorities. My point then in my prior posting with Syria in such a dysfunctional state the threat that existed for Israel under a Syria ruled by Assad has been effectively neutralized.

I see.  Maybe.... but the common foe of all is Israel.  They have a way of setting aside Sunni, Shia divisions when they can kill Israelis.  I think it almost as likely that all the Cantons you speak of will alternately shoot at each other AND at Israel but I understand your logic at least.