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G.Cooper encountered man-made flying saucers


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#466    TheMacGuffin

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 06:06 PM

View PostJimOberg, on 04 November 2012 - 05:59 PM, said:

Thanks for the honest answer.

Wouldn't such a paper be an excellent way to calibrate Mitchell's reliability on paranormal sorts of subjects? If it's done thoroughly, scientifically, and methodically, I would expect that approach to carry over to related fields of inquiry.



I wouldn't know anything about that subject of ESP.

I have never thought of UFOs as "paranormal" or supernatural, but as technological, albeit technology considerably more advanced then our own and difficult for us to comprehend--difficult but not impossible.

Edited by TheMacGuffin, 04 November 2012 - 06:07 PM.


#467    JimOberg

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 06:18 PM

View PostTheMacGuffin, on 04 November 2012 - 06:06 PM, said:

I wouldn't know anything about that subject of ESP. I have never thought of UFOs as "paranormal" or supernatural, but as technological, albeit technology considerably more advanced then our own and difficult for us to comprehend--difficult but not impossible.

That's perfect. It's the same approach Mitchell has to ESP -- not supernatural, but a physics-based manifestation of real mental powers. So examining his approach to ESP would indeed tell us a lot about his approach to UFOs. Want to try it -- or would you like somebody else to take a look and report back?


#468    zoser

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 06:27 PM

MacG I don't want to divert the direction of the thread so please answer only at a convenient time:

I wondered what are your views about Corso?  The reason for asking is that Stan Friedman was very frank in one of his interviews by saying that he felt Corso was a fraud.

Every time I watch Corso in the person or read things about him I get a different impression.

Just curious.

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#469    JimOberg

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 06:33 PM

View Postzoser, on 04 November 2012 - 06:27 PM, said:

MacG I don't want to divert the direction of the thread so please answer only at a convenient time:

I wondered what are your views about Corso?  

I can only offer opinions on Corso's book. But it has nothing to do with Cooper, so your first advice is best followed.

However, you can reach the same conclusions if you compare Corso's account of his role in the 'Discoverer' satellite project [circa 1960] with all documented histories and summaries of the project, and decide where the falsifications are being made -- and by whom.

Edited by JimOberg, 04 November 2012 - 07:08 PM.


#470    TheMacGuffin

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 06:35 PM

View PostJimOberg, on 04 November 2012 - 06:18 PM, said:

That's perfect. It's the same approach Mitchell has to ESP -- not supernatural, but a physics-based manifestation of real mental powers. So examining his approach to ESP would indeed tell us a lot about his approach to UFOs. Want to try it -- or would you like somebody else to take a look and report back?

I found this interview where he discussed it, and basically said that it was a "personal and private" experiment, not authorized by NASA and one that he did not expect would even be publicized.

As I said, I am definitely no expert on these things but it sounds like the same type of experiments that were being done by J.B. Rine and others to see if people could use ESP to read numbers and symbols on cards.  

"My experiment involved four transmission sessions during rest periods programmed into the flight. The well-known experiment in the laboratory was to use cards with the five Zener symbols, but the actual cards aren't important. It was easier for me to use random number tables than carry the physical cards. Instead, all I did was to generate four tables of 25 random numbers just using the numbers 1 to 5. Then I randomly assigned a Zener symbol to each number.

For each transmission, I would then check the particular table of random numbers and think about the corresponding symbol for 15 seconds. Each transmission took about 6 minutes. I did this when I was ready to go to sleep at night. We had sleeping bag hammocks that we would put underneath the couches. Two of us would go to sleep in a hammock while the other one would be on watch. I would do the experiment before going into my sleeping bag."


http://www.google.co...Rlm6YrwcPRI_rtA


He said that Wernher von Braun was very interested in these experiments, which of course does not surprise me in the least.

"The reaction at NASA was very, very minimal! Except for Wernher von Braun and quite a few engineers, NASA management ignored the experiments. Many people came to my office and closed the door and wanted me to tell them about it, which I did. Nobody else said a thing.

Wernher was very intrigued by it and was very supportive. He wanted me to do a survey of NASA installations to see if there was any place that would be useful and appropriate for us to do some more of this work, to further these studies in a deeper way. But we both left NASA before we ever got that really accomplished. He also came and spoke at a fundraising dinner for the Institute of Noetic Sciences."

Edited by TheMacGuffin, 04 November 2012 - 06:51 PM.


#471    zoser

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 06:38 PM

View PostJimOberg, on 04 November 2012 - 06:33 PM, said:

I can only offer opinions on Corso's book. But it has nothing to do with Cooper, so your first advice is best followed.

It would still be interesting to hear ...............

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#472    TheMacGuffin

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 06:41 PM

I really don't know what to think about experiments like that, and as Mitchell pointed out, one such test doesn't really prove anything one way or the other.

It's always been my impression that they thought ESP could be proven if someone could consistently "read" what was on the cards at a level above random chance and guessing, so I guess they were trying to prove something statistically.

No, I don't know what to think about that.  It's just too far outside of my area, like the remote viewers who claimed to be able to "see" inside UFOs or detect structures under the moon and Mars.  It's interesting and I suppose it's possible, but difficult to prove.  It all comes down to this question of can it be demonstrated that the person with ESP knows, sees or senses things that they could not possibly know otherwise.  

I'm not even sure how to apply that to UFOs, either.

Edited by TheMacGuffin, 04 November 2012 - 06:41 PM.


#473    zoser

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 06:43 PM

Just for info:

http://www.disclose....illip_J__Corso/

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#474    TheMacGuffin

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 06:46 PM

Years ago, John Newland used to host this program One Step Beyond, which he always claimed was based on true stories.  In one episode called "The Sacred Mushroom", he traveled to Mexico to test whether these mushrooms could enhance ESP or psychic abilities--whatever term you want to you.  Then at the end he took some of them himself and tried one of those laboratory experiments in a university.  

This was a serious program and he took some scientists and professors with him to Mexico to see if there was anything to it.






Edited by TheMacGuffin, 04 November 2012 - 06:49 PM.


#475    TheMacGuffin

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 07:09 PM

View Postzoser, on 04 November 2012 - 06:27 PM, said:

MacG I don't want to divert the direction of the thread so please answer only at a convenient time:

I wondered what are your views about Corso?  The reason for asking is that Stan Friedman was very frank in one of his interviews by saying that he felt Corso was a fraud.

Every time I watch Corso in the person or read things about him I get a different impression.


Well, you have to remember that Corso was an Army officer, as I was, basically a military intelligence type.  I know the old jokes about how military intelligence is an oxymoron or military intelligence is to intelligence what military music is to music.

I have said before that I thought the Army had its own UFO investigation going in World War II and perhaps before, prior to the time that the Air Force became a separate service in 1947.  It has more information about UFOs that people realize, just because ground troops have reported them in every war, and I'm sure those reports make their way up the line to whoever is really doing the classified UFO investigation.

Corso really did have all the jobs he claimed, and probably had some real information about UFOs.  He was right in there with all those old Research and Development Board people who we know were heavily involved in the early UFO investigations.  These were the same people that Robert Sarbacher was talking about, and if anyone had the real story on UFOs they did.  

Of course, he later said that his ghostwriter exaggerated and sensationalized some of the details, but he always stuck by his basic story.

Interestingly, the documentary filmmaker Robert Emenegger met Corso many years before his Roswell book came out, and said that he did indeed have some real information about UFOs, although not exactly what appeared in The Day after Roswell book.


#476    zoser

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 07:14 PM

View PostTheMacGuffin, on 04 November 2012 - 07:09 PM, said:

Well, you have to remember that Corso was an Army officer, as I was, basically a military intelligence type.  I know the old jokes about how military intelligence is an oxymoron or military intelligence is to intelligence what military music is to music.

I have said before that I thought the Army had its own UFO investigation going in World War II and perhaps before, prior to the time that the Air Force became a separate service in 1947.  It has more information about UFOs that people realize, just because ground troops have reported them in every war, and I'm sure those reports make their way up the line to whoever is really doing the classified UFO investigation.

Corso really did have all the jobs he claimed, and probably had some real information about UFOs.  He was right in there with all those old Research and Development Board people who we know were heavily involved in the early UFO investigations.  These were the same people that Robert Sarbacher was talking about, and if anyone had the real story on UFOs they did.  

Of course, he later said that his ghostwriter exaggerated and sensationalized some of the details, but he always stuck by his basic story.

Interestingly, the documentary filmmaker Robert Emenegger met Corso many years before his Roswell book came out, and said that he did indeed have some real information about UFOs, although not exactly what appeared in The Day after Roswell book.

So Friedman's criticisms are probably more to do with the co-author of the book?  That would make sense.

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#477    TheMacGuffin

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 07:16 PM

I would that the Army never seemed to get publicly called on the carpet about UFOs like NASA and the Air Force always did, but behind the scenes they were very interested in the subject and went around just gathering information in their quiet way.

View Postzoser, on 04 November 2012 - 07:14 PM, said:

So Friedman's criticisms are probably more to do with the co-author of the book?  That would make sense.

That's what Corso said before he died.


I don't think the military ever really got out of the UFO business, although the Air Force was certainly very glad and relieved to get out of the PUBLIC side of the business after Blue Book was closed down.  They were getting a high percentage of reports that were valueless, but that doesn't mean that all UFO reports were.  Far from it.  The military has known that for decades and they really would have been the village idiots if they hadn't.

Edited by TheMacGuffin, 04 November 2012 - 07:22 PM.


#478    booNyzarC

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 07:47 PM

View PostTheMacGuffin, on 04 November 2012 - 04:38 PM, said:

I have never falsified ANYTHING or misinformed anyone.  That's what you always say about me, but your extreme bias is obvious.

If they kicked people off of here for bias, every single one of you UM "skeptics" would be gone, without exception.  That definitely includes you, Boon, Bad, Hazzard, and Oberg.  None of you are even remotely "objective" no matter how much you pretend to be, and you spend much of your time mocking, smearing and attacking your opponents.

Ahem...  Chrlzs just cited a specific example of your misinformation.  You have yet to cite even one to back up your slanderous statements.

As for mocking, smearing, and attacking your opponents; this is behavior that YOU exhibit on an almost daily basis anymore, and there are literally hundreds of examples on this forum where you've been doing that from nearly day one.  Do you want me to cite some of these?

You accused another poster of distorting the facts of a case and of nefarious intention, yet it was you distorting his words and wrongly denigrating his character.  Here.
You claimed that Gordon Cooper wrote about confiscated UFO photos from Gemini V, and even cited specific pages.  Turns out nothing of what you claimed was in those pages.  Here.
You accused James Oberg of saying that Cooper was "fired," when he never made such a statement at all.  Here.
You claimed that skeptics had denied that McClelland had any involvement with NASA, when no such denial had ever took place.  Here.
You claimed that Edgar Mitchell had publicly stated that NASA had contact with aliens, but he has never made such a statement.  Here.
This thread is just full of examples of your atrocious behavior.  It's also where you accused Chrlzs of being me.  But then, around that period you were accusing almost anyone with a skeptical opinion of being me if you didn't recognize them.

Anyone can do an advanced search where the poster is TheMcGuffin (your previous abandoned account...) or TheMacGuffin where the keyword is "skeptic" to read many posts where you heap bile and slander over and over again upon anyone who has the audacity to point out your fallacies and/or correct your mistakes.  In fact, just about any thread you've participated in will undoubtedly reveal acidic, scalding, disrespectful, and venomous remarks from you about skeptics in general, me and Bade in particular, and several other individuals including Hazzard, DBunker, Chrlzs, Lost_Shaman, 747, DONTEATUS, mcrom, Pericyntheon, The Sky Scanner, bmk, and more.

And this doesn't even count the many posts which have been snipped and/or hidden from public view.



View PostTheMacGuffin, on 04 November 2012 - 04:38 PM, said:

You just hate me because I fight back hard against you, and you post the same lies about me constantly.

I don't think anybody hates you McG, we're just sick and tired of your games.  You come across as a bitter and angry old man who throws more tantrums than a two year old.



View PostTheMacGuffin, on 04 November 2012 - 04:38 PM, said:

Yes, I stand by everything I've said on here, and you can go to hell.

Of course you stand by everything you've said.  To admit your mistakes would be a sign of weakness (in your rather bizarre little world), and you surely can't have that.

Regardless of your refusal to admit to any of these errors, as anyone with an ounce of integrity would be willing to do, they are still blatantly obvious and permanently recorded within the pages of this forum.


If you truly want a character debate, I can gather even more specific examples.  You've literally littered this forum with your nastiness.


I'd rather not, however, so I suggest the following...

Just stop.  We can discuss these cases and the information without all of the mud slinging.  We can debate the topics based on the merit of the information shared, cited, and argued.

Can you do that McG?  Can you find a way to attack the post instead of the poster?  Is it within your capacity to address the message instead of the messenger?


#479    TheMacGuffin

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 07:49 PM

View PostbooNyzarC, on 04 November 2012 - 07:47 PM, said:

Just stop.  We can discuss these cases and the information without all of the mud slinging.  We can debate the topics based on the merit of the information shared, cited, and argued.

Can you do that McG?  Can you find a way to attack the post instead of the poster?  Is it within your capacity to address the message instead of the messenger?

Here I was trying to be nice and reasonable today, and then this prick shows up to bait me some more.

Yes, Boon, I do get tired of it--and of you.


#480    booNyzarC

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 07:57 PM

View PostTheMacGuffin, on 04 November 2012 - 07:49 PM, said:

Here I was trying to be nice and reasonable today, and then this prick shows up to bait me some more.

Yes, Boon, I do get tired of it--and of you.

The post I quoted was from today.  If that's what you consider being nice and reasonable, you've got some serious misunderstandings about social norms.

If you expect that kind of BS to just be ignored, you're mistaken.





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