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Traits of Socialism


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#61    Yamato

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 11:10 AM

 Br Cornelius, on 04 January 2013 - 11:09 AM, said:

Let me put out my position here;
There has never been a socialist state
There has never been a capitalist state
Both are Utopian ideals - unachievable and relatively meaningless in the real world.
Both are limited economic systems which are poor representation of the world we actually live in. The real economic systems we operate with are neither socialist or capitalist.

There have been many imperialist states
There have been many totalitarian states
These are the real states we have to deal with on a day to day basis.

People who couch their arguments in socialist - capitalist critiques show a progound lack of understanding of what reality they actually live in and they really need to learn a little before making statements about government.

Br Cornelius


Exactly :tu:

Br Cornelius
You're discussing socialism here anyway.   Wasn't too difficult now was it.

"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#62    Br Cornelius

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 11:19 AM

 Yamato, on 04 January 2013 - 11:09 AM, said:

Called 'Traits of Socialism'.   How bold of me to discuss socialism here.
A discussion which used an example which had nothing to do with socialism to start with - a WRONG FOOTED start to any discussion.
The Title and comment didn't match :tu:

If you start out on a debate with a flawed premise - don't be surprised when you conclusions are flawed. It seems that RavenHawk is a repeat offender.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius, 04 January 2013 - 11:23 AM.

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#63    Br Cornelius

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 11:24 AM

 Yamato, on 04 January 2013 - 11:10 AM, said:

You're discussing socialism here anyway.   Wasn't too difficult now was it.
By acknowledging that is doesn't really exist.
"Is the thought of a Unicorn a real thought ?" Philip K Dick

You see your mistake is to attribute what is happening in America to socialism - when in fact it has been on a long slow slide into a fascistic totalitarian state. By mis-diagnosing the cause you make any resistance you might offer ineffective.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius, 04 January 2013 - 11:31 AM.

I believe nothing, but I have my suspicions.

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#64    Yamato

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 11:34 AM

 Br Cornelius, on 04 January 2013 - 11:19 AM, said:

A discussion which used an example which had nothing to do with socialism to start with - a WRONG FOOTED start to any discussion.
The Title and comment didn't match :tu:

If you start out on a debate with a flawed premise - don't be surprised when you conclusions are flawed. It seems that RavenHawk is a repeat offender.

Br Cornelius
How many times do you have to repeat yourself?   I heard you the first time about how flawed it is.  What am I supposed to discuss about that.  My discussion is "Okay.  Okay.  Okay.  Okay."   Can we move on?  

You just can't discuss the cons of socialism, whatever those are.  If you won't discuss it you shouldn't have brought it up.

 Br Cornelius, on 04 January 2013 - 11:24 AM, said:

By acknowledging that is doesn't really exist.
"Is the thought of a Unicorn a real thought ?" Philip K Dick
Br Cornelius
So you can't even discuss Socialism theoretically.   Let the record show.

"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#65    Br Cornelius

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 11:38 AM

Quote

So you can't even discuss Socialism theoretically.   Let the record show.

I refuse to accept your flawed terms of reference and find it rather pointless discussing Utopian ideals.

Br Cornelius

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#66    Yamato

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 11:47 AM

 Br Cornelius, on 04 January 2013 - 11:38 AM, said:

I refuse to accept your flawed terms of reference and find it rather pointless discussing Utopian ideals.

Br Cornelius
Never asked you to accept my terms, whatever those are.   Never asked you to discuss "Utopian ideals" either.  But if that's all Socialism is, then I'm not interested in it either.

"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#67    Br Cornelius

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 12:00 PM

 Yamato, on 04 January 2013 - 11:47 AM, said:

Never asked you to accept my terms, whatever those are.   Never asked you to discuss "Utopian ideals" either.  But if that's all Socialism is, then I'm not interested in it either.
Then we have agreed :tu:

Br Cornelius

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#68    Sir Wearer of Hats

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 12:35 PM

Socialism is a very easily abused high ideal - an ideal so high that we're not ready for it and as such turn it to the neds of whever is powerful enough to do so.

Star Trek's Federation and Banks' Culture are arguably socialistic as noone has to work to pay for tings, if you need something it's provided fo you and there is no real govern,ent beyond a group of people maling sure the lights work and noone invades you.

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I will permit it to pass over me and to move through me. And when it is gone I will turn the inner eye to see it's path.
When the fear is gone, there will be nothing.
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#69    Yamato

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 01:20 PM

Socialism is not having to work to pay for things?  That is indeed an abused high ideal then.   What do you have to work for?   One's inner altruism and personal pride?   Is this magic world somehow free from greed too and everyone is going to behave themselves just like the nice man in the uniform instructed?

Now I've been informed above that socialism doesn't exist in reality and isn't worth discussing theoretically or otherwise, but putting that aside and looking for real world examples of it anyway, would a hippie commune qualify?  Why or why not?

"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#70    questionmark

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 01:56 PM

 Wearer of Hats, on 04 January 2013 - 12:35 PM, said:

Socialism is a very easily abused high ideal - an ideal so high that we're not ready for it and as such turn it to the neds of whever is powerful enough to do so.

Star Trek's Federation and Banks' Culture are arguably socialistic as noone has to work to pay for tings, if you need something it's provided fo you and there is no real govern,ent beyond a group of people maling sure the lights work and noone invades you.

That would be communistic, or the point in which all property belongs to everybody. Socialism just wants to level the playing field but allows asymmetric accumulation of goods.

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#71    Mr Right Wing

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 01:58 PM

 Br Cornelius, on 04 January 2013 - 11:09 AM, said:

1. Let me put out my position here - There has never been a socialist state, there has never been a capitalist state, both are Utopian ideals - unachievable and relatively meaningless in the real world.
2. Both are limited economic systems which are poor representation of the world we actually live in. The real economic systems we operate with are neither socialist or capitalist.
3. People who couch their arguments in socialist - capitalist critiques show a profound lack of understanding of what reality they actually live in and they really need to learn a little before making statements about government.

1. Most countries today have mixed economies but some lean more towards Communism or Capitalism than others. Capitalism is possible but it means people get paid their worth so the bottom of society would go without.
2. A free market economy accurately reflects supply and demand. It prioritises where resources end up based on wealth and wealth is something given to those who are most beneficial to society.
3. A flawed opinion. Capitalism is minus all social safeguards so it doesnt distort but reflects reality. The most evolved survive and prosper just like in nature while those not up to it go extinct.

Oh dear I seem to be going a bit strange with the last one. Wheres my black marker and armband lol.

Edited by Mr Right Wing, 04 January 2013 - 02:00 PM.


#72    questionmark

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 01:59 PM

 Yamato, on 04 January 2013 - 01:20 PM, said:

Socialism is not having to work to pay for things?  That is indeed an abused high ideal then.   What do you have to work for?   One's inner altruism and personal pride?   Is this magic world somehow free from greed too and everyone is going to behave themselves just like the nice man in the uniform instructed?

Now I've been informed above that socialism doesn't exist in reality and isn't worth discussing theoretically or otherwise, but putting that aside and looking for real world examples of it anyway, would a hippie commune qualify?  Why or why not?

No, that is communism. Socialism is when the government is democratic and its aim is that every citizen is insured an minimum level of subsistence. Everybody should still work. The only ones who are exempt are those who would be exempt in any society and they  get the minimum any political system confers upon them to avoid that they make a nuisance out of themselves.

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#73    Mr Right Wing

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 02:16 PM

 questionmark, on 04 January 2013 - 01:59 PM, said:

No, that is communism. Socialism is when the government is democratic and its aim is that every citizen is insured an minimum level of subsistence. Everybody should still work. The only ones who are exempt are those who would be exempt in any society and they  get the minimum any political system confers upon them to avoid that they make a nuisance out of themselves.

A country is like a human being -
1. They both take in resources, metabolise them and gives out other resources.
2. They have leadership (brain or government).
3. They have units (citizens or cells).
4. Evolution applies to both (survival of the fittest).

In a human body some cells are more important than others. These make up the brain, blood and internal organs. So lets look at what happens when a human body goes communist -

Communist - Now all cells are equals when it comes to the distribution of resources. What happens when cold weather strikes? The human dies because his blood isnt diverted to the brain and internal organs to keep them warm. Therefore the lesson is that Communism is at odds with nature and evolution.

Capitalism - Cold weather strikes and what do we find? The human survives because resources get priortised to the most important cells. The human might lose a few fingers or toes but he lives. Therefore the lesson is that capitalism is in tune with nature and evolution.

A quick look at the USSR shows Communism was a complete disaster. When you look at all animals their bodies are modelled on capitalism for a reason. They cant respond to their external environments or manage their internal resources properly without it.

Edited by Mr Right Wing, 04 January 2013 - 02:22 PM.


#74    questionmark

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 02:23 PM

 Mr Right Wing, on 04 January 2013 - 02:16 PM, said:

A country is like a human being -
1. They both take in resources, metabolise them and gives out other resources.
2. They have leadership (brain or government).
3. They have units (citizens or cells).
4. Evolution applies to both (survival of the fittest).

In a human body some cells are more important than others. These make up the brain, blood and internal organs. So lets look at what happens when a human body goes communist -

Communist - Now all cells are equals when it comes to the distribution of resources. What happens when cold weather strikes? The human dies because his blood isnt diverted to the brain and internal organs to keep them warm. Therefore the lesson is that Communism is at odds with nature and evolution.

Capitalism - Cold weather strikes and what do we find? The human survives because resources get priortised to the most important cells. The human might lose a few fingers or toes but he lives. Therefore the lesson is that capitalism is in tune with nature and evolution.

A quick look at the USSR shows Communism was a complete disaster. When you look at all animals their bodies are modelled on capitalism for a reason.

The USSR was as communistic as East Germany was democratic (official name: German Democratic Republic). What failed is not communism, what failed is state capitalism, which is not the same. We still have to see a communistic state.

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#75    Tutankhaten-pasheri

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 02:25 PM

 RavenHawk, on 03 January 2013 - 09:29 PM, said:

Sort of like the Krell of Altair IV??  :alien:


I saw an environmental movie (can’t recall the title) that seemed to push for that kind of lifestyle.  There was just something eerily wrong with it but I couldn’t put my finger on it.  As an example, it showed one little boy in a small jungle pond swimming and how happy he was.  But what was wrong with that is that with a 7 billion population and climbing, it wouldn’t be one boy swimming alone in a pond.  It would be those over crowed beaches.  I don’t think this world can return to that way of life anymore.
Hi-tech agrarianism is only a temporary definition, and it is not fully connected to Kropotkin, or ancient sci-fi films. Though this vision involves us having travelled to the stars. This is not a utopian view, I know human nature is competetive and often cruel. My vision is for a future when we do not have to be slaves to any state. Think of it as similar to the motives that led to the English puritans emigrating to America, or at later date people like the Amish. When we have the technology, then these movements of people will occur again, but this time to the stars. I know any society will eventually collapse, even a utopia, and mostly because of human nature, somebody will eventually seize power for their own purpose, or there will be invasion, even US will collapse one day.





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