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The Black Dahlia mystery


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#46    JonathanVonErich

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 02:59 PM

Thanks for the info, Ant, never heard of this Otero before. :tu:

Ann Toth is another interesting character. Ann "disappeared" shortly after the investigation, and we don't know what happened to her. Last we heard from her was in 1950. Maybe she is still alive, who knows. My guess is that she was afraid of being/feeling harassed by reporters or cops and decided to leave the city, probably changed her name and appearance. I'm only speculating, I don't know what happened to her, but that's how I feel. Larry Harnisch once said that Ann died years ago, but he had no evidences to back up his claim, and from what I've read he wasn't able to give an exact date.

I'm convinced Ann knew more than what she told the investigators. Maybe she left the city because she was afraid of becoming the next victim, it's another possibility. Maybe there's nothing mysterious about her "disappearance", maybe she was unable to find another acting job and decided to leave LA to raise a family, but the fact she vanished soon after the investigation ended is strange and intriguing. I'm trying to find more info.

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#47    Antilles

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Posted 20 May 2012 - 12:17 PM

Otero is an interesting character.


Michael Anthony Otero, lived at the time of the murder at 3940 Marathon Street, Normandy 2-3632, with Albert Rodriguez. Shortly after the murder, he left the United States and resides in Barcelona, Spain. Approximately, on September 1, 1950, he returned to New York and is now residing there at an address known only to his brother. He has admitted going out with victim Short, twelve times and least on one occasion Ann Toth took victim to the Biltmore Hotel to meet this suspect whom she referred to as her Spanish teacher. His spanish book was found in her effects. He was with victim on December 6, 1946, the day before she left for San Diego. He is the only known boy friend who was meeting her at the Biltmore Hotel where she was last seen alive. Albert Rodriguez still resides at 3940 Marathon, Los Angeles, and has not been questioned. See Robert Manley’s statement in which he states that two days before he left San Diego with victim to bring her up to Los Angeles, that the victim had specified in requesting him to take her that she would like him to take her to the Biltmore Hotel in Los Angeles.

http://www.bethshort...4ca45b9efdd132b

Lots of interesting discussion about Otero.

Two weeks after the crime, the killer sent a note to the newspaper (Herald-Examiner) stating “Here! Is Dahlia’s Belongings, letter to follow.” This note was accompanied by some personal belongings of the victim.

This note is of paramount importance, as it is the only piece of evidence which we know came directly from the killer.

The note contains a grammatical error (“Here is Dahlia’s belongings” instead of "Here are..."). I wonder if the killer, while obviously smart, was unused to the English language--that is, foreign. I think the killer’s note has a stilted quality. The word “belongings” used instead of simply “things.” The use of this long word, “belongings,” is especially surprising considering the killer had to cut out each letter.

Another thing I find strange is that the killer left an exclamation point on the word “Here” (“Here! is Dahlia’s Belongings.”) Why not just cut it off. This is at odds with the patience and meticulousness the killer displayed in most aspects of the crime. The note indicates patience and care in other ways—most of the letters have been individually cut out and pasted very carefully. The crime as a whole indicates a “perfectionist” mentality, so why the carelessness here. But a foreigner would not necessarily see anything wrong with an exclamation point in the middle of a sentence. In Spanish, this would be common.

Makes me wonder about the "Spanish teacher."


#48    Shosanna Dreyfus

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Posted 20 May 2012 - 03:57 PM

This is one of the most fascinating unsolved or murder cases for me too.  I recently read John Gilmore's Severed.  It was an interesting read and it was good to finally get round to checking it out after being aware of it for a while.  But I couldn't help noticing, as other readers have, that very little dates are given and even less sources.  Other sites or readers have compared it to the misinformation and myth making of Robert Graysmith's work on the Zodiac case.  I know JonathanVonErich already explained to me elsewhere that the false genitalia information given in Gilmore's book was a mistake because the autopsy information wasn't available at the time.  But I'm wondering what Dahlia researchers think about the book in general (I certainly know firsthand how engaging and readable it can be)?  For instance Gilmore suggests that Beth Short and Georgette Bauerdorf would have been likely to have known each other from frequenting the same nightspot (where Georgette worked) but I've seen it mentioned elsewhere that Beth wasn't in L.A. at that time and only began to visit the nightspot after Bauerdorf's murder.

I'm also curious about what Larry Harnisch suggests about a number of fictional sources, places and events: http://lmharnisch.com/no_shows.html

Are the criticisms of John Gilmore's book accurate or is it his critics that have it wrong?

"My name is Shosanna Dreyfus and THIS is the face... of Jewish vengeance!"
Shosanna will return in... Shosanna Kills... Shosanna Kills Again and... The Dreyfus Knight Rises!
Bridget Von Hammersmark will return in... The World Is Not Enough and... Quantum Of S.P.A.R.T.A.
Villain:  "Shosanna just sent me a text message!  It says I just *beep*ed with the wrong French girl!"

#49    Antilles

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 11:32 AM

I'm not sure if Gilmore posits BD and Bauerdorff knowing each other but Wolffe certainly does. According to him, they both worked at the Hollywood Canteen at the same time and knew each other.

Bauerdorff volunteered there for sure but there is no proof that BD ever did and certainly nothing concrete that they ever knew each other.

And I include Bauerdorff's diary in that statement.


#50    iamladia

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 11:11 AM

View PostDave67, on 12 October 2006 - 12:15 PM, said:

Do You think the Killer of the Black Dahlia(Elizabeth Short) will ever be discovered? I vaigely remember a Person a while back saying that they believed their late Father killed the Black Dahlia.
there were at least two books claiming to know the identity of the killer.


#51    JonathanVonErich

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 04:27 PM

Again great jon Ant, thanks for sharing more info about Otero, I agree he's a very interesting suspect. :tu:

View PostAntilles, on 20 May 2012 - 12:17 PM, said:

Makes me wonder about the "Spanish teacher."

If my memory is correct Wolfe claims in "The Black Dahlia Files" that the teacher was probably Maurice Clement, an alleged associate of Brenda Allen. Wolfe claims Clement was part of "the team" who killed Beth. Now a lot of people believe Wolfe created the link between Clement and Allen, and that Clement had nothing to do with the murder. However there's no doubt that at one point Clement was a suspect in the case; he was listed at number 7 on the D.A.'s list of suspects. Quite frankly I don't know what to believe, seems to be a lot of false informations about this man, difficult to really know the truth.

More about Maurice Clement: http://www.bethshort...topic.php?t=458


#52    JonathanVonErich

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 07:58 PM

View PostShosanna Dreyfus, on 20 May 2012 - 03:57 PM, said:

This is one of the most fascinating unsolved or murder cases for me too.  I recently read John Gilmore's Severed.  It was an interesting read and it was good to finally get round to checking it out after being aware of it for a while.  But I couldn't help noticing, as other readers have, that very little dates are given and even less sources.  Other sites or readers have compared it to the misinformation and myth making of Robert Graysmith's work on the Zodiac case.  I know JonathanVonErich already explained to me elsewhere that the false genitalia information given in Gilmore's book was a mistake because the autopsy information wasn't available at the time.  But I'm wondering what Dahlia researchers think about the book in general (I certainly know firsthand how engaging and readable it can be)?  For instance Gilmore suggests that Beth Short and Georgette Bauerdorf would have been likely to have known each other from frequenting the same nightspot (where Georgette worked) but I've seen it mentioned elsewhere that Beth wasn't in L.A. at that time and only began to visit the nightspot after Bauerdorf's murder.

I'm also curious about what Larry Harnisch suggests about a number of fictional sources, places and events: http://lmharnisch.com/no_shows.html

Are the criticisms of John Gilmore's book accurate or is it his critics that have it wrong?

Great post Shosanna. :)

I have read Severed 5 times, by far one of the most interesting book I have ever read, one of my favorites. John Gilmore is a great researcher and great writer, one of the most respected American writer of the past 25 years.

Now is the book reliable from beginning to end ?? No. Like you said Shosanna, very little dates are given and even less sources. I don't think it's as bad as what Robert Graysmith did in Zodiac, but saying that everything Gilmore wrote is accurate would be a lie.

About the dates: That's one of the first thing that struck me when I first read the book, very little are given, and many people have a problem with that. I agree, it's a flaw, but it's understandable for many reasons. We have to remember that Gilmore conducted the interviews with the witnesses 30, even 40 years after the facts, only logical that most people who met Beth were not able to remember exactly when the events took place. Frustrating ? Yes, but understandable. The list given by Harnisch is also controversial, he clearly have an aganeda against anyone who doesn't agree with his theory, therefore I'm highly suspicious of anything he's saying. He could be write on certain things, but to say that the book is not reliable because of 3 or 4 mistakes would be absurd.

About the sources: Very little sources are given, and it's frustrating, but here I'm giving the benefit of the doubt to the author. Gilmore is the first who really investigated the case, first who took the time to talk to these people, therefore I doubt very seriously that he created events or "characters" like some people are saying. Again, difficult to know the truth, but from what I know ( and I don't claim that I know everything ), 95% of what Gilmore wrote really happened, or at least he didn't created anything.Of course he added some drama and melodramatic elements to the book ( like every talented writer would I guess ), but there's no solid proof that he created stuff just to make the "ride" more interesting. I trust Gilmore over Larry Harnisch anytime, Harnisch seems to have a tendency of bashing other Dahlia authors.

Now if some so-called witnesses gave him false informations it's not really Gilmore's fault, remember that back when he wrote the book very little had been written about the case, therefore he could have easily been mistaken about some informations. Back when Gilmore wrote the book he didn't had access to the internet ( duh ), had no access to the D.A.'s files, that's why some details about the autopsy are wrong and that's why you'll find mistakes here and there ( like about the genitalia for example ). Gilmore spent decades researching the case, and in my opinion he did a very solid job, he is the first who uncovered the real Elizabeth Short, the first who showed to the world that Elizabeth was a great but lost girl and not the tease or hooker that so many people claims she was.

There's so many myths about this case that it's often difficult to know the truth. Is Severed a reliable book ?? Yes. Now how reliable it is ?? I'd say very reliable, at least 90% reliable, that's very good when you think Gilmore started basically from nothing, that he had to investigate everything by himself. Of course Gilmore added a little bit of drama, melodramatic elements to the book, but overall this is a very reliable book, still more reliable than the two books written by Steve Hodel, and in many ways more reliable than the book written by Donald Wolfe ( Gilmore worked with Wolfe on the book, the book is in many way a Severed volume 2, Wolfe quoting Severed at least a hundred times ).

Edited by JonathanVonErich, 25 May 2012 - 08:06 PM.


#53    Shosanna Dreyfus

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 08:29 PM

Merci for the answers Antilles and JonathanVonErich.  I've always liked the theory from Severed and the idea that the killer died in a mysterious fire before the police could move in on him.  As some noted Ripperologist once said "The answer can only ever be perhaps" but there is something very eerie about that theory that I like.  I would be interested in checking out Steve Hodel's books at some point just for posterity and an alternative theory.

"My name is Shosanna Dreyfus and THIS is the face... of Jewish vengeance!"
Shosanna will return in... Shosanna Kills... Shosanna Kills Again and... The Dreyfus Knight Rises!
Bridget Von Hammersmark will return in... The World Is Not Enough and... Quantum Of S.P.A.R.T.A.
Villain:  "Shosanna just sent me a text message!  It says I just *beep*ed with the wrong French girl!"

#54    JonathanVonErich

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 01:44 AM

View PostAntilles, on 21 May 2012 - 11:32 AM, said:

Bauerdorff volunteered there for sure but there is no proof that BD ever did and certainly nothing concrete that they ever knew each other.

Well said Ant.

There's absolutely no evidences that Beth and Georgette knew each other, none. There's even no evidences that the two of them were once in the same room. Intriguing possibility, but I'm waiting for the evidences. Georgette had many friends, she was the kind of girl who talked to anybody, so maybe they once talked to each other, but there's no way to know.

View PostShosanna Dreyfus, on 25 May 2012 - 08:29 PM, said:

Merci for the answers Antilles and JonathanVonErich.  I've always liked the theory from Severed and the idea that the killer died in a mysterious fire before the police could move in on him.  As some noted Ripperologist once said "The answer can only ever be perhaps" but there is something very eerie about that theory that I like.  I would be interested in checking out Steve Hodel's books at some point just for posterity and an alternative theory.

You're welcome chère amie. :)

I would like to read more about what you think of Severed. Also I recommend you Childhood Shadows, by Mary Pacios. She was once friend with Beth when they were very young, and this is a great book for anybody who wants to know the "real" Elizabeth Short. The book is far from being perfect ( her theories about who might have killed her are laughable at best ), but the chapters about Beth are very good.

Link to Amazon: http://www.amazon.co...38082924&sr=8-1

Edited by JonathanVonErich, 27 May 2012 - 01:44 AM.


#55    Antilles

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 11:19 AM

I guess we always come back to 2 central questions: why was BD murdered and why was she tortured and murdered the way she was?

Her death, the manner of her death and the display of her body were a warning. Don't **** with me.

Not a random psycho. Not the Cleveland Torso Killer in LA for a sabbatical. :gun:

Her death was mob related - she knew and associated with too many people involved in prostitution and the rackets for it to be any other way.


#56    Antilles

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Posted 18 June 2012 - 12:09 PM

BD's death was bad.

Really bad.

She never deserved the agony she endured.

It was a mob job.

Convinced.


#57    wolfknight

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Posted 18 June 2012 - 05:04 PM

Lets face it anyone conneted to the Black Dahlia case is dead. This case will never be solved. Just let her rest and be done with it.


#58    HollyDolly

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Posted 18 June 2012 - 06:07 PM

If you go to www.stevehodel.com he has something about his new book,Black Dahlia Avenger 2,and other cases. Also, when googling George Hodel,came across w.w.w.onedayshelldarken.com It is the website of Fauna Hodel, the niece of Steve,and granddaughter of George Hodel.
Her mother,Tamar Hodel back in the 1940s brought charges of incest against her father and Steve mentions this in his first book on the Black Dahlia.Fauna has written a book One Day She'll Darken,about her life. She mentions that her mother stated on the birth certificate that her father was black, but the lady who raised her ,Jimmie Lee always had doubts about that,and really believed Fauna's father was a white man.
Her website also mentions that there was going to be a movie made about her life with Alfie Woodard,and several other stars, but the project was halted for unknown reasons.
I don't think Hodel was BD's killer.He was a very intelligent man,and certainly would have disposed of the body ,not left it out in the open.I mean if i was a killer, I know lots of places around the Texas Hill Country,abandoned farms and old dirt roads where one could hide a body and it would never been found.
I think there are plenty of suspects to go around, but I don't think we will ever know who her killer was. The same goes for Jack the Ripper,we still have no idea who commited his horrible crimes.


#59    JonathanVonErich

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Posted 18 June 2012 - 08:28 PM

View Postwolfknight, on 18 June 2012 - 05:04 PM, said:

Lets face it anyone conneted to the Black Dahlia case is dead. This case will never be solved. Just let her rest and be done with it.

I highly disagree with you.

This case needs to be closed. The fact everybody connected with the case is dead means nothing.

The Short family deserves to know the truth, relatives of the family deserves to know the truth, even family members of the investigators deserves to know the truth. We must know who the killer(s) was, I think it's very important. Elizabeth Short didn't deserved to be murdered, she didn't deserved everything that had happened to her, and the only thing we can do is to find the killer and expose him/them.

We need to find the truth. For Elizabeth.

Edited by JonathanVonErich, 18 June 2012 - 08:34 PM.


#60    Antilles

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Posted 19 June 2012 - 11:39 AM

View PostJonathanVonErich, on 18 June 2012 - 08:28 PM, said:

I highly disagree with you.

This case needs to be closed. The fact everybody connected with the case is dead means nothing.

The Short family deserves to know the truth, relatives of the family deserves to know the truth, even family members of the investigators deserves to know the truth. We must know who the killer(s) was, I think it's very important. Elizabeth Short didn't deserved to be murdered, she didn't deserved everything that had happened to her, and the only thing we can do is to find the killer and expose him/them.

We need to find the truth. For Elizabeth.

I couldn't agree with you more.

Well said.

I'm not interested in gruesome photos of Beth's body which seems to be what a lot of people associate this crime with.

I want to know why she died and who killed her.

She may not have had much of a life but she never did anything to warrant such an atrocious death.

Great post jon. :yes:

Edited by Antilles, 19 June 2012 - 11:39 AM.





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