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Where do athiests think we came from?


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#16    Alienated Being

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 06:00 PM

View PostArmchair Educated, on 28 November 2012 - 05:58 PM, said:

god is meant to be perfection and u cant be perfection with out being self existing, so god always existed.
But in order for change to occur, it requires time; and time cannot exist within a singularity, as it is based on relativity...

It is a complex concept that makes my brain hurt whenever I think about it.

Edited by Alienated Being, 28 November 2012 - 06:02 PM.


#17    Ever Learning

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 06:00 PM

View PostAlienated Being, on 28 November 2012 - 05:57 PM, said:

We don't know, that's the thing. Scientists may never know, but to assume that we have been created through processes of divinity due to dictation from one lone book is nothing short of ignorance.
all the christians i know base their beliefs not just on the bible but the experiences they have that confirm the bible.

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#18    Hasina

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 06:01 PM

View Postfreetoroam, on 28 November 2012 - 05:59 PM, said:


We aint that cleva!
Not yet, man, but think about it. If future you was all 'woah, past me was pretty awesome, we should hang', then when, like, future you makes a time machine, it just creates... THE PAST.

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#19    Ever Learning

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 06:02 PM

View PostAlienated Being, on 28 November 2012 - 06:00 PM, said:

But in order for change to occur, it requires time; and time cannot exist within a singularity, as it is based on relativity...

It is a complex concept that makes my brain hurt whenever I think about it.
for god to have existed for ever he would have to exist out of time, to create time

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#20    iforgot

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 06:02 PM

View PostLiquid Gardens, on 28 November 2012 - 05:52 PM, said:

My issue with how you have phrased this is that you are including 'everything needs to have a cause' in the argument.  We don't know how valid it is to apply the laws of physics of this physical universe we live in to something outside the universe or to 'before' the Big Bang occurred.  If time was created at the same time as the Big Bang, then how can there even be a cause and an effect since those requires time to exist?
If there was nothing, then how does that spawn something?

Quote

If everything needs a cause, then what caused God or the mystical creation force to exist?  If those can exist without having been caused, then why does the Big Bang need a cause?
understanding the force that created us is clearly outside the realms of our comprehension.

What we know for sure is that everything in this reality needs a cause in order to have an effect. The big bang is no exception. If it came from somewhere where things needed no cause, then that would leave a gray area for it to have spawned from somewhere mystical all the same (because everything we know in this reality needs a cause).

Edited by iforgot, 28 November 2012 - 06:04 PM.


#21    freetoroam

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 06:05 PM

View PostHasina, on 28 November 2012 - 06:01 PM, said:

Not yet, man, but think about it. If future you was all 'woah, past me was pretty awesome, we should hang', then when, like, future you makes a time machine, it just creates... THE PAST.
Sorry you have lost me there, maybe you are ahead of me, by 3 bottles.

Edited by freetoroam, 28 November 2012 - 06:05 PM.

In an ideal World a law would be passed were NO guns were allowed and all those out there destroyed, trouble is the law makers are not going to take a risk of trying to pass that without making sure they are armed first.

#22    Purplos

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 06:06 PM

I'm not being difficult and perhaps it is a bit OT, but "It's clear that our universe wasn't always in existence." I'd love some info about why this is clear.

I was always of like mind with Stephen Hawking... it has no beginning and end. It just is.

Embrace the impossible.

#23    Ever Learning

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 06:08 PM

if the universe has always been then why is it expanding and speeding up

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#24    Hasina

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 06:09 PM

View Postfreetoroam, on 28 November 2012 - 06:05 PM, said:


Sorry you have lost me there, maybe you are ahead of me, by 3 bottles.
Probably, personally I have no theory about where the universe came from. It's like a locked room mystery where you can only use information to solve the mystery from inside that room, no outside knowledge, nothing, just everything in that room, no assumptions based on outside info either.

Edited by Hasina, 28 November 2012 - 06:09 PM.

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#25    scowl

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 06:10 PM

View PostArmchair Educated, on 28 November 2012 - 05:58 PM, said:

god is meant to be perfection

No he's not.


#26    White Crane Feather

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 06:11 PM

Its not that difficult.

All we have to do is look at ourselves. We are obviously concious, and we are on the brink of understanding genes, technology,  and evolution enough to be able to consciously evolve. Somone already mentioned the universe is evolving. It has to. The only things that can exist are things that have the ability to perpetuate its existsance into to future.  Life obviously is very good at this, and  concious sentient  life even better.  Life is also exponential in nature. We are approaching the singularity in which life and technology will shift into extremely high gear.

Now aply that same principal to evolving universes. In an infinity of existence the substructure of reality must have evolved conciousness or at least extremely likely to. The kicker is that it must have done it an infinity ago which means its always been here continually evolving. Our universe is part of this ongoing process of life and evolution. We are the innerworkings of the great spirit.

I asked the ocean ( a representation of primordial conciousness in my visions) during an OBE, how it was created. It said ( more of a telepathic understanding rather than language) that it dosnt remember.

With all that said time in science is simply the propagation of signals always creating more entropy. It has nothing to do with sequence or causality. Causality time absolutely did not start with the big bang. There were things going on prior to that, we just may not understand them or be able to quantify it the way we observe this universe behaving. This notion of no time is silly.

The same thing can be said about the vacuum. there is not a shred of evidence or any reason to think that the vaccume was produced during the BB. Certainly the SPACE between things because everything was supposedly condensed, but not the vaccum itself.

When you take a hard critical look at the BB theories, I'm not sure why anyone thinks that The vaccume of SPACE and causality TIME was produced during the expansion.

Over the years I have become more and more sceptical of the theory any way. If it is simply the nature of the vaccume to push things a way possibly the effect of virtual particles on an intergalactic level like an intergalactic exponential cassneir affect coupled with the occasional quantum tunneling of a virtual particle building up more than average densities of energy in clumps, the. We would make the the observations that we have.  I'm not saying this is what is happening, but there could be some other circumstances that give us the types of observations we have.

Edited by Seeker79, 28 November 2012 - 06:19 PM.

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#27    Ever Learning

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 06:11 PM

View Postscowl, on 28 November 2012 - 06:10 PM, said:

No he's not.
your answers is void as you cant define the undefinable lol
walking my dogs now, will be interesting to see whats happened when i get back.

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#28    iforgot

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 06:12 PM

View PostPurplos, on 28 November 2012 - 06:06 PM, said:

I'm not being difficult and perhaps it is a bit OT, but "It's clear that our universe wasn't always in existence." I'd love some info about why this is clear.

I was always of like mind with Stephen Hawking... it has no beginning and end. It just is.
Well, there is only evidence of the big bang and expansion.

The laws of our physical reality violate the that logic anyways. Because everything needs a cause, the universe is no exception!


#29    freetoroam

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 06:16 PM

View PostHasina, on 28 November 2012 - 06:09 PM, said:

Probably, personally I have no theory about where the universe came from. It's like a locked room mystery where you can only use information to solve the mystery from inside that room, no outside knowledge, nothing, just everything in that room, no assumptions based on outside info either.
Got it now :tu:
We do have more info on the universe than we do on god, and the info we have about the universe is still very little, as opposed to the knowledge about god, which we have nothing.

In an ideal World a law would be passed were NO guns were allowed and all those out there destroyed, trouble is the law makers are not going to take a risk of trying to pass that without making sure they are armed first.

#30    freetoroam

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 06:18 PM

View Postiforgot, on 28 November 2012 - 06:12 PM, said:

Well, there is only evidence of the big bang and expansion.

The laws of our physical reality violate the that logic anyways. Because everything needs a cause, the universe is no exception!
Why does every thing need a cause? thats man thinking!

In an ideal World a law would be passed were NO guns were allowed and all those out there destroyed, trouble is the law makers are not going to take a risk of trying to pass that without making sure they are armed first.




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