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#136    Kazahel

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Posted 01 January 2010 - 03:32 AM

View PostCadetak, on 01 January 2010 - 03:16 AM, said:

Calling yourself a shapeshifter because you did it in a dream is like me saying I had sex with Megan Fox

Sigh, you guys just dont seem to either read or want to take anything in.

Here are the definitions of shapeshifting we have been using.. Taken from here.

Quote

Occult101

ShapeShifting
The magical ability to assume the forms of animals or other human beings with the soul while it is astrally projected from the body. Occasionally these altered shapes are seen by other people, who mistake them for bodies of flesh.


Book of Shadows

Shapeshifting
A very esoteric practice involving changing the human form. This can be practiced while on the astral plane, this alone is a great accomplishment. It is said that one can also shapeshift on the physical plane, though documented proof of this is nonexistent. Few books are published on the subject as it is an art mainly for certain people, and teachers prefer to find these people and teach them their art secretively rather than let the public know their ways.

Wikipedia English - The Free Encyclopedia

Shapeshifting

Shapeshifting is a common theme in folklore, as well as in science fiction and fantasy. In its broadest sense, it is a change in the physical form or shape of a person or animal. Other terms include metamorphosis, morphing, transformation, or transmogrification.
There is no settled agreement on the terminology. Still, the most common usages are:

shapeshifting indicates changes that are temporary
metamorphosis indicates changes that are lasting
transformation indicates changes that are externally imposed
Transmogrification suggests either a internally physical, mental, and or somewhat spiritual transformation as makie from Wicked City went through or a horrific (and somewhat asymmetrical) physical transformation as most of makie's fellow demons underwent.
Shapeshifting is distinguished from natural processes such as aging or metamorphosis (despite shared use of the term), the body contortions of animals such as the Mimic Octopus, and illusory changes. Instead, shapeshifting involves physical changes such as alterations of age, gender, race, or general appearance or changes between human form and that of an animal, plant, or inanimate object.


And of course because this thread is centered around occultism then we must use the more occult definitions. Which is that shapeshifting is something you do in astral/dreaming. So when I say I 'shapeshifted' in lucid dreams, it is shapeshifting. And others might not want to agree with that.. because you only believe in the physical shifting side of it. Which is your mistake not mine considering we are talking about 'occult shapeshfting'... as the title of this thread points to.

And considering also that the ONLY place to shapeshift fully like in the movies is while in a dreaming environment, then its still not the same as your Megan example.

So yes anyone can shapeshift I guess... but it seems very few actually do or know how to. But with time and practise and using my 'shapeshifting running technique' people have a chance to actually get there one day. :)

Edited by Kazahel, 01 January 2010 - 03:38 AM.


#137    Cadetak

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Posted 01 January 2010 - 04:52 AM

View PostKazahel, on 01 January 2010 - 03:32 AM, said:

And of course because this thread is centered around occultism then we must use the more occult definitions. Which is that shapeshifting is something you do in astral/dreaming. So when I say I 'shapeshifted' in lucid dreams, it is shapeshifting. And others might not want to agree with that.. because you only believe in the physical shifting side of it. Which is your mistake not mine considering we are talking about 'occult shapeshfting'... as the title of this thread points to.
Oh okay your going on about 'astral plane' stuff. Which if I remember correctly is a magical place and not a simple lucid dream?

Quote

And considering also that the ONLY place to shapeshift fully like in the movies is while in a dreaming environment, then its still not the same as your Megan example.
It's exactly the same thing. In my lucid dream I imagined Megan Fox, in yours you imagined yourself transforming into a bear.

Quote

So yes anyone can shapeshift I guess... but it seems very few actually do or know how to. But with time and practise and using my 'shapeshifting running technique' people have a chance to actually get there one day. :)
I gaurantee that if I watch either Transformers or anything with a Werewolf in it I will dream about shapeshifting.

It's really not all that big of a deal or all that serious...and of course because its a dream its not all that real.

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#138    Kazahel

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Posted 01 January 2010 - 05:21 AM

View PostCadetak, on 01 January 2010 - 04:52 AM, said:

Oh okay your going on about 'astral plane' stuff. Which if I remember correctly is a magical place and not a simple lucid dream?

Please dont make me go over all this again just for you. Look up 'astral dreaming' or go back through my posts please because I've already answered this.

Quote

It's exactly the same thing. In my lucid dream I imagined Megan Fox, in yours you imagined yourself transforming into a bear.

No its not the same thing because you can ONLY shapeshift in this way(we know its the ONLY way possible). So if you are going to actually talk about shapeshifting this is what it is.

Quote

I gaurantee that if I watch either Transformers or anything with a Werewolf in it I will dream about shapeshifting.

It's really not all that big of a deal or all that serious...and of course because its a dream its not all that real.

You may very well trigger a dream in which you dream you are something else,   but inorder to shift from one thing to another, while being fully aware(so conscious of the fact you are dreaming) takes much skill. Which may not be a big deal to you but to be honest generally people that say those kinds of things cant even lucid dream very well at all, let alone have any decent sort of dream control.

Also other cultures do seem to think this kinda stuff is a big deal and they take it seriously.. take some of the native americans for one..

Quote

It seems that the Navajo mythology speaks of the "Yenaldlooshi", which translates into:
"He who trots along here and there on all fours."
The Navajo also believe that humans can take the form of animals in nature or termed: therioanthropy. The two main animals for such shapeshifting were the coyote (Navajo call the Little-Lil' Trotter) and wolf (Navajo call the Big Trotter). Also note that in Navajo rituals and practices, that witchcraft and human to animal forms (wereanimals-weranimals) have always been present within their society(s).
It seems worth mentioning also, that the coyote, has been present in many Indian cultures and societies:

Taken very quickly from here.

So I could look around and find stuff like this all day from many cultures who did/do take it seriously but I didnt think I would have to..

And always remember because its a dream its so real thats why you usually get fooled when your dreaming of you 'reality'. Ask any lucid dreamer what a lucid dream is like and they will tell you its just like now, its that real, you could be dreaming right now and would not know. Thats why they made such things as reality cards to help test/prove your reality. ;)

Edited by Kazahel, 01 January 2010 - 05:28 AM.


#139    Cadetak

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Posted 01 January 2010 - 05:42 AM

View PostKazahel, on 01 January 2010 - 05:21 AM, said:

Please dont make me go over all this again just for you. Look up 'astral dreaming' or go back through my posts please because I've already answered this.
Yes I know what astral dreaming is and what it is not. I'm also sure at some point in time someone explained how dreams work.

Quote

No its not the same thing becuse you can ONLY shapeshift in this way(we know its the ONLY way possible). So if you are going to actually talk about shapeshifting this is what it is.
It's the same because both instances aren't real and only take place in the fabric of the mind, in dreams.

Quote

You may very well trigger a dream in which you dream you are something else,   but inorder to shift from one thing to another, while being fully aware(so conscious of the fact you are dreaming) takes much skill. Which may not be a big deal to you but to be honest generally people that say those kinds of things cant even lucid dream very well at all, let alone have any decent sort of dream control.
I know what lucid dreaming is, in some form I do it almost every night while not even trying.

Quote

Also other cultures do seem to think this kinda stuff is a big deal and they take it seriously.. take some of the native americans for one..
So?


Quote

Taken very quickly from here.

So I could look around and find stuff like this all day from many cultures who did/do take it seriously.

And always remember becuase its a dream its so real that why you usually get food when your dreaming of you 'reality'. Ask any lucid dreamer what a lucid dream is like and they will tell you its just like now, its that real, you could be dreaming right now and would not know. Thats why they made such things as reality cards to test your reality. ;)

I'm going to double check the forum rules and possibly consult a moderator before I can continue this discussion. I'm not sure how skepticism/debunking, criticism, and general applications of science and psychology work in regards to this particular forum section. Got bored in Religion and Politics and was branching out but I'm not sure if this forum or maybe just this topic is for me...I attempt to explain things rationally and logically with the best data made available, and where data doesn't exist utilize probability and plausibility...and from what I remember from earlier UM days that doesn't mix well with the Metaphysics crowd.

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#140    Finity

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 01:54 AM

I used to work with a girl that seriously claimed to be a witch (though not openly), she once offered to make me a drink to help a bad stomach I had.  Naturally I refused, well...you never know :P


#141    667-Neighbor of the Beast

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 03:01 PM

View PostCadetak, on 01 January 2010 - 05:42 AM, said:

Yes I know what astral dreaming is and what it is not. I'm also sure at some point in time someone explained how dreams work.


It's the same because both instances aren't real and only take place in the fabric of the mind, in dreams.

I know what lucid dreaming is, in some form I do it almost every night while not even trying.


So?




I'm going to double check the forum rules and possibly consult a moderator before I can continue this discussion. I'm not sure how skepticism/debunking, criticism, and general applications of science and psychology work in regards to this particular forum section. Got bored in Religion and Politics and was branching out but I'm not sure if this forum or maybe just this topic is for me...I attempt to explain things rationally and logically with the best data made available, and where data doesn't exist utilize probability and plausibility...and from what I remember from earlier UM days that doesn't mix well with the Metaphysics crowd.
Your wasting your time with this guy.  I have several pages in this topic trying to explain to him the lack of logic and reality in his thinking.  Got no where.  I even used examples like you did, but he only wants to believe that someone can only claim to be a shapeshifter if they dream about it, but other dreams do not count.  He is obviously living in a dream world.

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#142    Kazahel

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 03:41 PM

View Post667-Neighbor of the Beast, on 04 January 2010 - 03:01 PM, said:

Your wasting your time with this guy.  I have several pages in this topic trying to explain to him the lack of logic and reality in his thinking.  Got no where.  I even used examples like you did, but he only wants to believe that someone can only claim to be a shapeshifter if they dream about it, but other dreams do not count.  He is obviously living in a dream world.

Get real. You dont listen at all and every example you have said earlier was never the same, like I pointed out, which others can go back and read themselves. I have told you that shapeshifting is ONLY possible in this way, so your example before of.. 'if i dream im the pope so i am' is not the same thing.


This thread is about "OCCULTISM HOW HUMANS TRANSFORM INTO ANIMALS"....

Now considering this is the definition of occult shapeshifting below.... taken from here.

Quote

Occult101


ShapeShifting
The magical ability to assume the forms of animals or other human beings with the soul while it is astrally projected from the body. Occasionally these altered shapes are seen by other people, who mistake them for bodies of flesh.


Quote

Book of Shadows


Shapeshifting
A very esoteric practice involving changing the human form. This can be practiced while on the astral plane, this alone is a great accomplishment. It is said that one can also shapeshift on the physical plane, though documented proof of this is nonexistent. Few books are published on the subject as it is an art mainly for certain people, and teachers prefer to find these people and teach them their art secretively rather than let the public know their ways.


There is nothing more to say. But to attempt to then say its just me living in some sort of dream world is just rude because as I pointed out these are also beliefs from other cultures, they are along the same lines.... For example the Navajo beliefs regarding the Yenaldlooshi...


Quote

It seems that the Navajo mythology speaks of the "Yenaldlooshi", which translates into:
"He who trots along here and there on all fours."
The Navajo also believe that humans can take the form of animals in nature or termed: therioanthropy. The two main animals for such shapeshifting were the coyote (Navajo call the Little-Lil' Trotter) and wolf (Navajo call the Big Trotter). Also note that in Navajo rituals and practices, that witchcraft and human to animal forms (wereanimals-weranimals) have always been present within their society(s).
It seems worth mentioning also, that the coyote, has been present in many Indian cultures and societies:

So anyway if you actually want to learn how to 'occult shapeshift' then you learn to do it in lucid/astral time. But it takes practise and is obviously not something everyone just 'does', but you all do have a chance to learn.


#143    667-Neighbor of the Beast

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 04:44 PM

View PostKazahel, on 04 January 2010 - 03:41 PM, said:

Get real.
This statement is just hilarious coming from a guy who claims to be something because he imagined it.

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#144    Kazahel

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 12:57 AM

View Post667-Neighbor of the Beast, on 04 January 2010 - 04:44 PM, said:

This statement is just hilarious coming from a guy who claims to be something because he imagined it.

No what is 'funny' is that you seem to only come into this thread to continuously attempt to ridicule(and to try sway others)while continuosly showing your ignorance of the actual subject at the same time.  ;)

Edited by Kazahel, 05 January 2010 - 01:00 AM.


#145    667-Neighbor of the Beast

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 02:38 PM

View PostKazahel, on 05 January 2010 - 12:57 AM, said:

No what is 'funny' is that you seem to only come into this thread to continuously attempt to ridicule(and to try sway others)while continuosly showing your ignorance of the actual subject at the same time.  ;)
I don't need to sway others.  I stepped out, and others came in and picked up where I left off.  And don't flatter yourself by thinking that you are the only reason I come in here.  That just shows your arrogance.  I was coming in here before you started your "I'm a shapeshifter!!!" rants.  
And calling someone else ignorant because they disagree with you is about as arrogant as anyone can be.  I know what I am talking about, and have science to back me up.  You, on the other hand, only have fairy tales to back up yours.  Dreams are nothing more than your imagination running while you are asleep.  Science has proven that, everybody knows it, but you just don't want to accept it. So, calling me ignorant for knowing what the facts are is beyond arrogant and ridiculous.

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#146    HerNibs

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 02:45 PM

Quote

A lucid dream is a dream in which the sleeper is aware that he or she is dreaming. When the dreamer is lucid, he or she can actively participate in and often manipulate the imaginary experiences in the dream environment. Lucid dreams can seem extremely real and vivid depending on a person's level of self-awareness during the lucid dream.[1]

Source


Quote

1.1   WHAT IS LUCID DREAMING?

Lucid dreaming means dreaming while knowing that you are dreaming. The term was coined by Frederik van Eeden  who used the word "lucid" in the sense of mental clarity. Lucidity usually begins in the midst of a dream when the dreamer realizes that the experience is not occurring in physical reality, but is a dream. Often this realization is triggered by the dreamer noticing some impossible or unlikely occurrence in the dream, such as flying or meeting the deceased. Sometimes people become lucid without noticing any particular clue in the dream; they just suddenly realize they are in a dream. A minority of lucid dreams (according to the research of LaBerge and colleagues, about 10 percent) are the result of returning to REM (dreaming) sleep directly from an awakening with unbroken reflective consciousness.

The basic definition of lucid dreaming requires nothing more than becoming aware that you are dreaming. However, the quality of lucidity can vary greatly. When lucidity is at a high level, you are aware that everything experienced in the dream is occurring in your mind, that there is no real danger, and that you are asleep in bed and will awaken shortly. With low-level lucidity you may be aware to a certain extent that you are dreaming, perhaps enough to fly or alter what you are doing, but not enough to realize that the people are dream representations, or that you can suffer no physical damage, or that you are actually in bed.

Source


Ok so using the above definitions lucid dreaming is knowing you are in a dream state and can cause things to happen in a DREAM STATE.

DREAM STATE is NOT reality.

Basically, you can play pretend to the highest level in a dream state.

It may feel real and you may be pretending it's real but it isn't reality.

Dream - make believing you can change your shape while in an unconcious state.

Reality - you are unconcious in your bed.  No shape changing is happening to your body.  You are still human 100%.

Nibs

Edited by HerNibs, 05 January 2010 - 02:46 PM.

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#147    Kazahel

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 03:22 PM

View Post667-Neighbor of the Beast, on 05 January 2010 - 02:38 PM, said:

I don't need to sway others.  I stepped out, and others came in and picked up where I left off.  

Well you are trying to. Just before you posted this below in regards to me...

View Post667-Neighbor of the Beast, on 04 January 2010 - 03:01 PM, said:

Your wasting your time with this guy.  I have several pages in this topic trying to explain to him the lack of logic and reality in his thinking.  Got no where.  I even used examples like you did, but he only wants to believe that someone can only claim to be a shapeshifter if they dream about it, but other dreams do not count.  He is obviously living in a dream world.

So it sure sounds as if you are trying to sway others with your misunderstanding of the thread, and your also being mildly offensive with your wording and have been all along. You only came in to say this to another person.. so this above was your whole post.. so it all speaks for itself..

667 said:

I know what I am talking about, and have science to back me up.  You, on the other hand, only have fairy tales to back up yours.  Dreams are nothing more than your imagination running while you are asleep.  Science has proven that, everybody knows it, but you just don't want to accept it. So, calling me ignorant for knowing what the facts are is beyond arrogant and ridiculous.

We are talking about occult shapeshifting and how humans turn into animals. Look at the title. And dreams(the dreaming world) is how you do this(as I showed with the defintion of shapeshifting...)so its what they are meaning when they say 'occult shapeshifting'. So we are not even talking about physical shifting which is what you are talking about in regards to science.. So you seem to still be ignoring the that this thread is about OCCULTISM and how to shapeshift using occult means.

And to shapeshift using 'occult means' you do it in the dreaming environment. As everybody with any occult knowledge of the subject seem to already know.

Edited by Kazahel, 05 January 2010 - 03:27 PM.


#148    Kriegermonch

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 03:29 PM

Nope. People still can't shapeshift. Through occult means or otherwise. It is highly improbable. As well as illogical. There is no reason to believe that shapeshifting is is anything more than the delusions of madmen or wishful thinking of young people who hope for a more interesting/extraordinary life.


#149    667-Neighbor of the Beast

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 03:37 PM

View PostKazahel, on 05 January 2010 - 03:22 PM, said:

So it sure sounds as if you are trying to sway others with your misunderstanding of the thread, and your also being mildly offensive with your wording and have been all along. You only came in to say this to another person.. so this above was your whole post.. so it all speaks for itself..

Like I said, I don't need to sway anybody.  As shown by the other posts, everybody here already knows this, except you.
And I don't care what the topic is, you are claiming the impossible.  I am not attacking the topic, just your ridiculous posts.  I am on topic, showing that shapeshifting is an impossibility.  I do have occult knowledge, but that does not mean I have to agree with you.
And the only reason I am being mildly offensive, is because the rules on this board keep me from saying what I really want to.   :P

Edited by 667-Neighbor of the Beast, 05 January 2010 - 03:38 PM.

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#150    Kazahel

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 03:42 PM

Quote

Lucid dreams can seem extremely real and vivid depending on a person's level of self-awareness during the lucid dream.[1]

I like that quote, thats why you should try shapeshifting in dreams. :tu:

View PostHerNibs, on 05 January 2010 - 02:45 PM, said:

Ok so using the above definitions lucid dreaming is knowing you are in a dream state and can cause things to happen in a DREAM STATE.

DREAM STATE is NOT reality.

Reality - you are unconcious in your bed.  No shape changing is happening to your body.  You are still human 100%.

Nibs

:blink:

This post of yours only shows you havent read the thread because if you had you would understand that I have not said anyway, at all, about physical shapeshifting.

As I am still trying to point out to you both now.... we are talking about OCCULTISM and how humans turn into animals using occultism.

And the definition of shapeshifting(from the occult places)is that its an astral/dreaming experience.

So 'occult' shapeshifting is what it is, in that its an astral thing, not a physical thing at all which you are mistakenly thinking.





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