290 replies to this topic

[SlimJim22]

the L, on 05 February 2011 - 10:18 PM, said:

Source?


Sethians? Never heard.

Please Slim be yourself. Im not learned to see "one sentence SlimJim."

EDIT: Okay. I found it.

Sorry the L I was being summoned to watch football. It aint an easy topic to find good sources on either.

The Apocalypse of Moses (literally, the Revelation of Moses) is the usual name for the Greek version of the Life of Adam and Eve. This title was given to it by Tischendorf,[6] its first editor, and taken up by others.[7] In the text, Moses is referred to only in the first sentence as the prophet to whom the story was revealed. The Greek Apocalypse of Moses (not to be confused with the Assumption of Moses) is usually considered to predate the Latin Life of Adam and Eve.

After being banished from the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve go to the East and live there for eighteen years and two months. Eve gives birth to Cain and Abel. Eve dreams that Cain drinks the blood of Abel, but that it then came out of his mouth. Cain kills Abel. Michael promises to Adam a new son, and Seth is born in place of Abel. (chapters 1-4)
Adam begets 30 other sons and 30 daughters. As Adam falls sick and is in pain, all his sons and daughters came to him, and he briefly recounts to them the story of the Fall. Seth and Eve travel to the doors of the Garden to beg for some oil of the tree of mercy (i.e. the Tree of Life). On the way Seth is attacked and bitten by a wild beast, which goes away when ordered by Seth. Michael refuses to give them the oil at that time, but promises to give it at the end of time, when all flesh will be raised up, the delights of paradise will be given to the holy people and God will be in their midst.

http://en.wikipedia....of_Adam_and_Eve

Seth is also mentioned in the context of Sons of God and Sons of Seth compared to the Daughters of Men and Daughters of Cain. This is tied in with the Watchers and Nephilim. Some do think that the Watchers are reminiscent of shamans because they are often depicted anthropomorphically. They were also described as the teachers of various practices that shamans would have been likely to know.

We don't need to think in terms of aliens, angels and giants because Cain is the farmer and Abel was the sheperd. What does this make the third son Seth then I wonder. Remember Adam had thirty other sons and daughters so what is special about Seth. I would say he blessed for some reason and is connected with the oil. Thus I conclude he was given knowledge of shamanic mysteries and this is how the lifestyyle of hunter-gatherers in the form of shepperding survived i.e. because they discoverd more from the wilderness of value than just livestock. Some of the most precious products may have grown wild.

Another story of conflict between agriculturalists and shepperds is Set and Osiris. Osiris is the farmer and god of the earth and Set is linked with the wilderness. In this instance Set was the victor because it relates to climate change most likley. In a drought the farmers would die first, they were also most at risk from plagues of rats or locusts. Hunter-gatherers on the other hand may be wise enough to ride out such catastropehs by moving to coastal or forested regions for food.

Just to clarify I am taking the stories as alleorical more than literal and describe broad groups of people and their cultures more than indiivduals.

Sethian Chritians were gnostics and used plants for medicinal and psychedelic reasons. They were big on spiritual purity but were rejected by the Cathollic Chruch quite early on.

http://www.gnostic-j...an-history.html

[the L]

@SlimJim

Do you have some good link where can I read The Life of Adam and Eve?

Good points Slim. And Osiris was resurected. So farmer won.(?)  When you mentioned Tree of life. Did you know that Adam and Eve were banished from Eden because of Tree of life NOT because they eat forbidden fruit from the Tree of knowledge of Good and Evil? Which usualy people think thats the reason. Both of the trees were forbidden. But God forgive them eating from the Tree of knowledge of Good and Evil. God just didnt want that Adam and Eve eat from the Tree of life. Because that would made them immortal and eternal.

(Genesis 3:22-23): “And he said: Behold Adam is become as one of us, knowing good and evil: now, therefore, lest perhaps he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever. [23] And the Lord God sent him out of the paradise of pleasure, to till the earth from which he was taken.”

Edited by the L, 06 February 2011 - 10:36 PM.

[the L]

Seth is realy interesting.I guess he was like historian.
Seth is charged to write on two tablets the life of his parents.

"Chosen by god." So yes I guess he was a priest.
The chariot and all the angels bear Adam's body to the Garden and lay him on the earth. Only Seth can see the scene.

also he explained to Eve Gods work:
The seven heavens are opened and Seth explains to his mother who are the two fearful figures in mourning.

and above all:
Michael tells Seth never to mourn on the Sabbath.
I guess he was charged to spread the word.

Edited by the L, 06 February 2011 - 11:01 PM.

[SlimJim22]

the L, on 06 February 2011 - 10:17 PM, said:

@SlimJim

Do you have some good link where can I read The Life of Adam and Eve?

Good points Slim. And Osiris was resurected. So farmer won.(?)  When you mentioned Tree of life. Did you know that Adam and Eve were banished from Eden because of Tree of life NOT because they eat forbidden fruit from the Tree of knowledge of Good and Evil? Which usualy people think thats the reason. Both of the trees were forbidden. But God forgive them eating from the Tree of knowledge of Good and Evil. God just didnt want that Adam and Eve eat from the Tree of life. Because that would made them immortal and eternal.

(Genesis 3:22-23): “And he said: Behold Adam is become as one of us, knowing good and evil: now, therefore, lest perhaps he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever. [23] And the Lord God sent him out of the paradise of pleasure, to till the earth from which he was taken.”

No I didn't know that. In what book is that found?

I'm not especially well read on this subject but I definitely will try and learn more about it. I found this article quite interesting as it talks about the Shekinah or 'divine presence'.

http://www.chabad.or...jewish/Adam.htm

It is some heavy stuff but the basics is that Seth named the constellation and planets so there is an association with astrology. It seems like this was frowned upon in the biblical tradition and there was the shifting of the Shekinah up the seven levels of the firmament per generation until Methuselah and from there it moved back to earth and was completed by Abraham. This may mean absolutely nothing but the number seven is important and in the early days of the patriarchs humanity was apparently quite sinful.

There is so much apocrypha and I don't know how accurate the translations are.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sethian

Seth was so formed from birth that the rite of circumcision could be dispensed with. He was thus one of the thirteen men born perfect in a way. Adam begot him in his likeness and image, different from Cain, who had not been in his likeness and image. Thus Seth became, in a genuine sense, the father of the human race, especially the father of the pious, while the depraved and godless are descended from Cain.

Even during the lifetime of Adam the descendants of Cain became exceedingly wicked, dying successively, one after another, each more wicked than the former. They were intolerable in war, and vehement in robberies, and if any one were slow to murder people, yet was he bold in his profligate behavior in acting unjustly and doing injury for gain.

Now as to Seth. When he was brought up, and came to those years in which he could discern what was good, he became a virtuous man, and as he was himself of excellent character, so he left children behind him who imitated his virtues. All these proved to be of good disposition. They also inhabited one and the same country without dissensions, and in a happy condition, without any misfortune's falling upon them, until they died. They also were the inventors of that peculiar sort of wisdom which is concerned with the heavenly bodies and their order. And that their inventions might not be lost before they were sufficiently known, they made two pillars, upon Adam's prediction that the world was to be destroyed at one time by the force of fire and at another time by the violence and quantity of water. The one was of brick, the other of stone, and they inscribed their discoveries on both, that in case the pillar of brick should be destroyed by the flood, the pillar of stone might remain, and exhibit these discoveries to mankind, and also inform them that there was another pillar, of brick, erected by them.

http://www.sacred-te.../loj/loj105.htm

http://www.bibliotec...ekli_tepe01.htm

http://www.bibliotec...ekli_tepe05.htm

http://timothystepha...om/gobekli.html

If these links are at all accurate then Gobekli tepe might be the source of astronomy, mushrooms and bird-men cults. With those three things I think a case can be made as to where the traditions that went on to influence Mesopatamia originated. It also happens to be the place where historians believe the conflict between hunter-gatherers and farmers began. Maybe there was no war as such but the Cain and Abel story is symbolic of a transaition towards farming and then with Seth there is a return to the sacred or mystical if the later traditions are to believed.

[The_Spartan]

bibliotecapleyades.net is not what i would consider a reputable source on archaeological information.
It is the usual run of the mill pseudo-whatever-ian^™ sort of site, similar to s8int.com.

Care to refer to some reputable sites, where real archaeology is being discussed?

[SlimJim22]

The Spartan, on 07 February 2011 - 12:13 PM, said:

bibliotecapleyades.net is not what i would consider a reputable source on archaeological information.
It is the usual run of the mill pseudo-whatever-ian^™ sort of site, similar to s8int.com.

Care to refer to some reputable sites, where real archaeology is being discussed?

Sadly reputable sites are reluctant to offer interpretations to what we have. Thus the less academic researchers are left to fit the pieces together. Just to clarify this is an alternative interpretation to AA theory or Creationism. It infers that the OT is the remnant of a much older tradition originiating around the first known temple. We know there was a lot going on nearby including shamans with bird paraphernailia, Gobekli and other sites that may correspond with constellations and the rise of agriculture. It may not be a perfect explanation of Genesis but it seems like a reasonable enough place for an Eden like garden to exist. I imagine post pleistocene that Anatolia would have been very lush with diverse ecosystems and plentiful water supplies. The same could be said for the Green Sahara however so who knows what lies beneath the desert. I'll try and look for better sources but I doubt they exist at present. Still the stuff on Shekinah is a more credible source.

[the L]

SlimJim22, on 07 February 2011 - 10:49 AM, said:

No I didn't know that. In what book is that found?

In Roman Chatolic and Ortodox chatolic Bible.What do you mean when you say mushrooms?
I dont know is that strech theory about those animals and astronomy but it is interesting read.

Secret society? Religion?

http://en.wikipedia....Knights_of_Seth

Edited by the L, 07 February 2011 - 05:26 PM.

[the L]

paygan, on 02 February 2011 - 11:02 PM, said:

I think you are so correct with the "priests with higher brain function" here SlimJim...

Enoch was anoint with fine oil with scent of myrrh and he became one of the others.
Uriel smelling myrrh.

Also this is interesting:
"According to the book of Matthew 2:11, gold, frankincense, and myrrh were among the gifts to Jesus by the Biblical Magi" Wiki

I wonder what was that oil smelling on myrrh? And shine like sunbeam?

It it interesting that myhrr were used in many medicnes. Ayurveda,Unani...

This is interesting:

"As mentioned previously, Acacias contain a number of organic compounds that defend them from pests and grazing animals.[7] Many of these compounds are psychoactive in humans. The alkaloids found in Acacias include dimethyltryptamine (DMT), 5-methoxy-dimethyltryptamine (5-MeO-DMT) and N-methyltryptamine (NMT). The plant leaves, stems and/or roots are sometimes made into a brew together with some MAOI-containing plant and consumed orally for healing, ceremonial or religious uses. Egyptian mythology has associated the acacia tree with characteristics of the tree of life (see the article on the Myth of Osiris and Isis)."Wiki

[SlimJim22]

the L, on 07 February 2011 - 05:48 PM, said:

Enoch was anoint with fine oil with scent of myrrh and he became one of the others.
Uriel smelling myrrh.

Also this is interesting:
"According to the book of Matthew 2:11, gold, frankincense, and myrrh were among the gifts to Jesus by the Biblical Magi" Wiki

I wonder what was that oil smelling on myrrh? And shine like sunbeam?

It it interesting that myhrr were used in many medicnes. Ayurveda,Unani...

This is interesting:

"As mentioned previously, Acacias contain a number of organic compounds that defend them from pests and grazing animals.[7] Many of these compounds are psychoactive in humans. The alkaloids found in Acacias include dimethyltryptamine (DMT), 5-methoxy-dimethyltryptamine (5-MeO-DMT) and N-methyltryptamine (NMT). The plant leaves, stems and/or roots are sometimes made into a brew together with some MAOI-containing plant and consumed orally for healing, ceremonial or religious uses. Egyptian mythology has associated the acacia tree with characteristics of the tree of life (see the article on the Myth of Osiris and Isis)."Wiki

One of the explanatiosn for the 'T' stones is that they represent psychedelic mushrooms. My other thought behind them is that they were sacrificial altars or used in sky burials. This may account for the three avian carvings but they could also be Lyra, Aquila and Cygnus. I think that dude makes a very good case for them representing constellations. There is even a hole where the pole would have been when the site was in use.

I would have thought that ancient cultures were more at one with nature and so understood properties of plants that we may not expect. Maybe it started as trial and error but over time they probably knew what plants to take for a trip. The making of oils is a major topic in itself. It gets a bit fringe because there are alleged recipes used to make initiates into a shining one. Obviously we are unclear on what that means exactly.

The Holy Anointing Oil is fully described in Exodus 30:22-33

Take thou also unto thee three principal spices, of liquid Myrrh five hundred shekels, and of sweet Cinnamon half so much, even two hundred and fifty shekels, and of sweet Calamus two hundred and fifty shekels, and of Cassia five hundred shekels after the shekel of the sanctuary, and of oil olive an hin. And thou shalt make it an oil of Holy ointment compound after the art of apothecary: it shall be a Holy anointing oil. Exodus 30:22-25

The Hin of Oil is approximately a Gallon of Olive oil. The art of apothecary is the art of the perfumer, who would boil the spices into the oil.

Pure Myrrh is the gum which comes out of the Balsam Plant. It was known as the "pain killer tree" by the ancient nomads. Balsam was used by traditional healers for a very long time, and was mentioned in several ancient texts for its healing abilities. Depending on the bible which is used, the translation is sometimes Liquid Myrrh, which is the milk from the Balsam plant.

Cinnamon is also an ancient herbal medicine. Cinnamon is mentioned in several ancient pharmacopoeias, and was certainly used by traditional healers.

The original Hebrew for calamus, is Kaneh-bosem or Qaneh (Kaw-naw) Bosem. Some translations have this as "fragrant cane" or "aromatic cane." Some researchers have argued that this is actually Sweet Cane or Sugar Cane, although the term sweet does not occur in the original manuscripts.

In the Hebrew terms such as Elohim (Pronounced El- Oh- Heem ) is rendered plural. So in the Hebrew Kaneh-bosem is also plural. The singular then is rendered Kaneh-bos or Kanabos.

Kaneh-Bos sounds remarkably close to the modern day word Cannabis. Could it be that cannabis was the plant given by God to be used in the Holy Anointing Oil?

Cannabis has certainly been cultivated since the beginning of recorded history. Its uses for rope, sails and rigging into ancient times are well documented.

Imagine the amount of cannabis rope it would have taken to construct the Temple of Solomon. What other way was there to construct ropes at that time, which could lift the weights of not only the Temple of Solomon, but in fact, the Pyramids themselves


http://www.freeanoin..._sacraments.htm

Why did the stargazing Magi bring these specific gifts? Logically because they were part of an anointing oil as the Messiah and Christ is the anointed one. If they recognized him as the king then they may want to give ingredients needed for him to receive the anointing. This would fit in with the anointing not just being a ritual process but actually a beneficial one too. It may have stimulated the brain but I don't think Jesus was anointed as a child. Maybe John did it or maybe it was later if at all. I just see the symbols coming through.

Gobekli is so far back it is hard to link the two but in the esoteric tradition there is a plausable way that this is done.

[paygan]

Wow, this discussion is getting interesting, I am loving the whole Sethian stories in Eden, some great info there. Thanks.

cormac mac airt, on 05 February 2011 - 09:52 PM, said:

Which means that any claims presenting it as factual, such as the earlier attempt in this thread, are in error and therefore invalid. The earlier attempt wasn't presented as speculation, but as a verifiable fact. It is not.

cormac

You are correct, I should change the wording from "produced in the pineal" to "closely linked to the pineal", well spotted. The main focus should be on the unexplained side of this however as SlimJim's well made the case for.

I cannot really claim as fact that it boosts brain function either, The Spirit Molecule book and now DVD are great and people can judge for themselves from the qualitative results of his studies, but Rick Strassman makes very few claims at the end of them, which can probably be best summarised "This stuff does something really complex to people's brains that we have only just touched the tip of the iceberg with - perhaps I shouldn't have pushed so many people off that cliff without really knowing what we are doing!"

I have a lot to add about 'Myrrh Theory' too. Firstly evidence to support the claim that it has changed name through time includes the verse in Mark 15:23, where it is said that "wine mingled with myrrh" was offered to Christ prior to crucifixion. Webster's Online Dictionary cites that it was "Called by the Romans Murrhina (vinum myrrha conditum), given to malefactors to intoxicate them, that their sufferings from crucifixion might be somewhat deadened."

Few seem to use Myrrh this way anymore, it's effects being very negligible or mild and is cited on some herbalist websites as a "mild stimulant" - not really what I'd want prior to crucifixion mixed with wine. I'm pretty sure that it would make the wine taste awful too. It's regarded as a perfume in Song of Solomon, so one can hardly be suprised if Christ refused someone putting perfume in his wine. A change in our understanding of this term seems highlly likely to me, considering that this bitter-sweet substance that you can both ingest, burn as an incense, apply as a balm and use as a perfume, was really valuable, and also could intoxicate and deaden pain....but today we hardly have a use for it. It's change in status and value since biblical times should also be questioned.

Cinnamon is what is known as an insulin mimetic - in other words a substance that affects the cells in the same way as insulin itself, activating the insulin receptors. So the two substances work together to get glucose taken up by the cells. The active ingredient in cinnamon was at first thought to be MHCP but in 2004 Dr Anderson stated that that was incorrect and the real ingredient causing the changes was the water soluble polyphenol type-A polymer. It still assists in glucose uptake and has been cited as a a metabolism booster, which would presumably include the brain.

The THC link is well documented and I agree would likely have been popular on the Jewish Temple scene at some point, but I like to point out the only known pharmacological linkage between the annointing oil and pycho-active's is actually in the "Calamus"

From Calamus, you can extract Aserone, which is a precursor to TMA-2:

http://www.erowid.or...rone.wacker.txt
http://www.erowid.or...istry/tma2.html

The root of the word Cassia means "split" and "bark" - presumably this could have changed meanings over time too, as it is currently just another form of cinnamon and it would seem odd for ancient apothecaries to use the same ingredient twice in such a sacred oil. I have a vague speculation this may have been linked to Iboga, which is a root bark from africa with anti-addictive effects.

Other great source material advancing such theories includes John M. Allegro's "The Sacred Mushroom and The Cross" along with Terence McKenna's "Food of The Gods"

I do have to slightly question the "art of the perfumer" being linked to the "art of the apothecary" - Wikipedia shows a much more medicinal definition of this art:

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Apothecary

Edited by paygan, 09 February 2011 - 02:44 PM.

[paygan]

the L, on 05 February 2011 - 09:44 PM, said:

@payganHi paygan,I respect your claims and thanks for links but why all other websites and articles say that Gobekli Tepe was built 12 000-10 000 BC?

Sorry, I missed this question.

I would presume that some websites are quoting 12,000 B.P instead of B.C and others are using that old human tradition of rounding up the latest 9559 date in the series. I think I read that there can be up to 400 year innaccuracies in Radio-carbon 14 dating methods for this period, but it's still a bit shy of 10,000 B.C., even if those had been applied to their maximum.

Edited by paygan, 09 February 2011 - 10:42 PM.

[Ove]

SlimJim22, on 31 January 2011 - 08:51 PM, said:

.. Since statues of birdmen, as well as those of vultures, have been found at both Göbekli Tepe and Nevali Çori, we can be pretty sure that the same cult existed here as far back as 11,500-10,000 BP...

The birdman attacked by a bison 16 000 years ago Lascaux cave France

The birdman is a priest. He's the connection between the earth and the sky.

Edited by Ove, 13 February 2011 - 03:08 PM.

[Ove]

the L, on 29 January 2011 - 03:09 PM, said:

How can this be 12000-10000 BC ?
http://www.gobeklite...otos/image5.jpg

Look at the belt (12000-10000 BC)

Edited by Ove, 13 February 2011 - 09:25 PM.

[SlimJim22]

Pretty wierd. What could it represent I wonder? Some coincidence that they used the 'H' symbol at all. That the builders were Natufian seems likely.

The Natufian culture was different to that of other Palaeolithic in 4 respects; first, numbers of small blades, blunted down one side and polished along the sharp edge, were found among chipped-stone tools. Secondly, a mass of large mortars and grinding stones were discovered. Thirdly, the locality of the Natufian culture had spread out well beyond the mouth of the Shuqbah Cave, indicating that this was a much larger community than at first glance. Lastly, over 100 burials were unearthed within the cave and in a regular cemetery on the terrace (Watkins, p.208).

Since its first discovery, it has been found that the Natufian culture had spread out; indeed, evidence for their appearance has been found, not only in its core area, but in northern Syria, north and south Lebanon, the Jordan Rift Valley, the Syrian-Arabian Desert and the Negev (Belfer-Cohen, p.167).

The Natufians are well known for their chipped-stone implements. This industry is characterised by a low frequency of geometric microliths and a ‘dominance of crescent-shaped microliths’, which are called lunates (Watkins, p.208). One of the most interesting things is here, is the emergence of a new tool – the sickle blade. This provides evidence for a widespread change in cultural practice.

http://www.bukisa.co...-the-natufians-

Projecting from the bird's breast is the hieratic letter H in the alphabet of Mu  which was among all ancient people was the alphabetical symbol for the Four Great Forces. The body of the bird is in the shape of a pod--symbol for the home of the primary forces. The various lines in connection with the pod are old esoteric Uighur temple writings.

This bird therefore symbolizes the Creative Forces of the Deity and the forces are shown as emanating from or coming out of the Deity. By extension, this figure reads: A symbol of the Almighty showing the four Great Primary Forces coming out of Him.

Easter Island: On this little island have been found various bird symbols and conventional animals with birds' heads. One has an egg in its claw, which seems to show that the ancient Easter Islanders had the same conceptions as the Hawaiians.

Legends of some of the North American Indians show that bird symbols are their favorite symbol for the Creative Forces. Their name for this bird is the Thunder Bird.

Birds appear among the ancient records of the Babylonians, Chaldeans and Hittites as one of their symbols of the Sacred Four--The Creative Forces.

http://www.sacred-te...l/ssm/ssm06.htm

Churchward should be taking with a pinch of salt but the assertion that 'H' could represent the sacred four forces of creation seems totally feasible.

Some crazy stuff in this one. I wonder how Churchward would have integrated Gobekli tepe into his theories on MU. The symbols seem like a very good match.

http://www.sacred-te...l/ssm/ssm09.htm

[Ove]

SlimJim22, on 13 February 2011 - 10:23 PM, said:

Pretty wierd. What could it represent I wonder? Some coincidence that they used the 'H' symbol at all. That the builders were Natufian seems likely.

More "H" symbol here






Is this a belt buckle ?
http://i52.tinypic.com/1zgets.jpg
http://i55.tinypic.com/5ywzdd.jpg

Edited by Ove, 13 February 2011 - 11:08 PM.