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#1261    supervike

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 10:20 PM

Totally agree DieChecker.  Zimmerman was a neighborhood watch captain, in a neighborhood that had been plagued by burglaries, he spotted someone cutting through yards, and followed up on it.  What happened next will be up to the prosecution to show, but Zimmermans story seems to add up, photos clearly show head injuries.  He got into a scuffle with the kid and shot him, in self defense.

It's a bad set of circumstances, but it doesn't make Zimmerman a cold blooded, racist murderer.


#1262    Professor Buzzkill

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 11:08 PM

Does anyone realize the government is funding protestgroups on both sides of this debate? from the link:

Quote

While the officials are tasked with preventing racial violence, it appears that in carrying out their duties, they have provided significant assistance to those protesting the killing of Martin, who was black, by George Zimmerman, who is half white and half Hispanic.



#1263    and then

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 11:46 PM

View PostProfessor Buzzkill, on 14 April 2013 - 11:08 PM, said:

Does anyone realize the government is funding protestgroups on both sides of this debate? from the link:
I've never been one to believe CT about the government because I think they are too inept to do anything that complicated.  But if this trial becomes an LA sort of thing then I may have to rethink my stance.  My guess is there will either be a change of venue or the jury will be loaded for a conviction.  On the merits he could NEVER be justly convicted according to the charge he faces.  He is guilty of some over eagerness but no way is he guilty of murder 2.  It was a political decision to go for that and it was a big mistake, imo.

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#1264    DieChecker

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 12:17 AM

Maybe Obama should go down there and have a beer with Zimmerman and Trayvon's parents? Worked for him in other racism issues....

Edited by DieChecker, 15 April 2013 - 12:17 AM.

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

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#1265    Myles

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 11:33 AM

View PostArtaxerxes, on 14 April 2013 - 04:12 AM, said:

The only thing the boy was guilty of was "walking while black." Trayvon was singled out because he was black and wearing a hooded sweatshirt.

Art
Actually he would be guilty of trespassing too.
You are correct in that part of the reason George followed him was because he was black.   The neighborhood had a rash of robberies by young black males.   George was doing what a neighborhood watch member should do.

Edited by Myles, 15 April 2013 - 11:35 AM.


#1266    DieChecker

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 12:53 AM

Quote

State pushes to keep Trayvon Martin's past out of George Zimmerman trial

State files motion to keep defense from using Martin's school records, texts, social media

http://www.clickorla...it/-/index.html

Quote

The state said in motions filed on Friday they want to prevent Zimmerman's attorneys from bringing up Martin's personal life, including his school records, previous suspension from school, fights, text messages sent prior to his death unless related to case and his social media use.

The motion also says the state wants to prevent the defense from using Martin's toxicology report, which showed the level of marijuana in Martin's blood the night he was shot and killed.

The state's filings suggest they fear the defense may try to attack Martin's character, instead of focusing on whether Zimmerman murdered Martin. Assistant prosecutor Bernie de la Rionda argued that Martin's past is irrelevant and would clearly be designed only to prejudice the jury.

Interesting....

Seems the Defense is at work to try to prevent anything from Trayvon's past from ruining that "little boy was shot" image the Media put up for him after the shooting.

Edited by DieChecker, 14 May 2013 - 12:54 AM.

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

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Qualifications? This is cryptozoology, dammit! All that is required is the spirit of adventure. - Night Walker

#1267    F3SS

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 02:16 AM

In this type of case, knowing Martins character is a huge part of the story. Anyone seen how big George has gotten?
http://www.nydailyne...ticle-1.1187607

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#1268    Michelle

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 02:29 AM

View PostF3SS, on 14 May 2013 - 02:16 AM, said:

In this type of case, knowing Martins character is a huge part of the story. Anyone seen how big George has gotten?
http://www.nydailyne...ticle-1.1187607

The press has already convicted George. Notice how they say George "gunned down" Trayvon and did not call him "the alleged supect" or any other politically correct term.


#1269    Bavarian Raven

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 03:25 AM

The closer this gets to trail, and the more the media slanders George, the more innocent George appears (and i believe he was in the right to begin with, naive, sure, but in the right).


#1270    xFelix

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 03:28 AM

View PostF3SS, on 14 May 2013 - 02:16 AM, said:

In this type of case, knowing Martins character is a huge part of the story. Anyone seen how big George has gotten?
http://www.nydailyne...ticle-1.1187607

In what type of case? In the type of case that a person walking down the street is gunned down which lead to death?


Let us see what the law says?
FSS 776.041 explicitly states that the persons who initially engages may not use the justifications provided within the chapter unless they engage and are then met with such force that they become fearful of their life or great bodily harm.
http://www.flsenate.gov/Laws/Statutes/2011/Chapter776/All


FSS 782.04 1(a) defines Murder as the unlawful killing of a human being.
http://www.flsenate.gov/Laws/Statutes/2011/Chapter782/All


FSS 784.011 Defines an assault as threatening to harm others by word or act while having the ability to do so.
FSS 784.021 Defines an aggravated assault as an assault performed with the use of a deadly weapon.
FSS 784.03 Defines Battery as the act of intentionally touching or striking another without permission to do so.
FSS 784.045 Defines Aggravated Battery as that of Battery, with the use of a deadly weapon or causing great bodily harm.
http://www.flsenate.gov/Laws/Statutes/2011/Chapter784/All

According to the chain of events provided in the 911 recordings:
Let us define for the purpose of this argument that:
Z Would be the defendant, George Zimmerman.
N would be the victim, Trayvon Martin.

Z spots M walking in public property in a way which alarmed him.
M notices he has been spotted by a larger person, which is armed.
Z engages in a pursuit with a deadly weapon. (Which entails an aggravated assault)
Z is instructed to cease the pursuit, but refuses to cooperate with law enforcement.
M gets tired and decides that the aggravated assault escalating to the use of force is imminent and stands his ground as prescribed by law. (In good faith he even did retreat although the law did not require that he did)
Z escalates his aggravated assault to Battery.
M meets force with force and uses non lethal force to defend himself.
** Let us note, that Z was in no way threatened(You cannot be threatened by someone turning their back and fleeing from you). Z was the one that threatened M with a deadly weapon on his person. M merely stood his ground and met force with force.
Z escalates his Battery to Aggravated Battery. (At this point he has illegally fired his weapon and cause the death of a person)

Now, according to the law..
According to FSS 784 Zimmerman committed Aggravated Assault, Battery and then Aggravated Battery of a minor which lead to death.
According to FSS 776, Zimmerman cannot hide behind "Castle Doctrine(FSS.776)" as justification of his actions because he was not in danger of his life or great bodily harm.
According to FSS 782, Zimmerman is Guilty of Murder..

Case closed, or is it? Why does the judicial system allow for the prolonging of such a simple case? The Justice System, is in actuality the Political Justice System.

Edited by xFelix, 14 May 2013 - 03:55 AM.

My posts consist of my opinions, beliefs, and experiences, feel free to disagree in a respectful manner.

I have a right to my beleifs, just as you have a right to not agree with them.

So long as we respect each other's beliefs, we won't have a single problem.


#1271    and then

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 03:41 AM

View PostxFelix, on 14 May 2013 - 03:28 AM, said:

In what type of case? In the type of case that a person walking down the street is gunned down which lead to death?


Let us see what the law says?
FSS 776.041 explicitly states that the persons who initially engages may not use the justifications provided within the chapter unless they engage and are then met with such force that they become fearful of their life or great bodily harm.
http://www.flsenate.gov/Laws/Statutes/2011/Chapter776/All


FSS 782.04 1(a) defines Murder as the unlawful killing of a human being.
http://www.flsenate.gov/Laws/Statutes/2011/Chapter782/All


FSS 784.011 Defines an assault as threatening to harm others by word or act while having the ability to do so.
FSS 784.021 Defines an aggravated assault as an assault performed with the use of a deadly weapon.
FSS 784.03 Defines Battery as the act of intentionally touching or striking another without permission to do so.
FSS 784.045 Defines Aggravated Battery as that of Battery, with the use of a deadly weapon or causing great bodily harm.
http://www.flsenate.gov/Laws/Statutes/2011/Chapter784/All

According to the chain of events provided in the 911 recordings:
Let us define for the purpose of this argument that:
Z Would be the defendant, George Zimmerman.
N would be the victim, Trayvon Martin.

Z spots M walking in public property in a way which alarmed him.
M notices he has been spotted by a larger person, which is armed.
Z engages in a pursuit with a deadly weapon. (Which entails an aggravated assault)
Z is instructed to cease the pursuit, but refuses to cooperate with law enforcement.
M gets tired and decides that the aggravated assault escalating to the use of force is imminent and stands his ground as prescribed by law. (In good faith he even did retreat although the law did not require that he did)
Z escalates his aggravated assault to Battery.
M meets force with force and uses non lethal force to defend himself.
** Let us note, that Z was almost twice the size of M and M was unarmed. A person half your size cannot pose the threat of great bodily harm or death without a weapon. Also noting that by them attempting to flee, their actions demonstrated that there was no intention of causing any harm.
Z escalates his Battery to Aggravated Battery. (At this point he has illegally fired his weapon and cause the death of a person)

Now, according to the law..
According to FSS 784 Zimmerman committed Aggravated Assault, Battery and then Aggravated Battery of a minor which lead to death.
According to FSS 776, Zimmerman cannot hide behind "Castle Doctrine(FSS.776)" as justification of his actions because he was not in danger of his life or great bodily harm.
According to FSS 782, Zimmerman is Guilty of Murder..

Case closed, or is it? Why does the judicial system allow for the prolonging of such a simple case?
I guess the bloody photos of Zimmerman's head and face were staged?  There will be a large contingent in the country who are invested in seeing Zimmerman go to prison for this.  If he does I think it will be a major miscarriage of the law.  If they had charged him with manslaughter or a lesser charge than murder 2 then it would have been easier to convict.  As it is he will probably walk - and some big cities, burn.

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...

#1272    F3SS

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 03:54 AM

View PostxFelix, on 14 May 2013 - 03:28 AM, said:



In what type of case? In the type of case that a person walking down the street is gunned down which lead to death?


Let us see what the law says?
FSS 776.041 explicitly states that the persons who initially engages may not use the justifications provided within the chapter unless they engage and are then met with such force that they become fearful of their life or great bodily harm.
http://www.flsenate.gov/Laws/Statutes/2011/Chapter776/All


FSS 782.04 1(a) defines Murder as the unlawful killing of a human being.
http://www.flsenate.gov/Laws/Statutes/2011/Chapter782/All


FSS 784.011 Defines an assault as threatening to harm others by word or act while having the ability to do so.
FSS 784.021 Defines an aggravated assault as an assault performed with the use of a deadly weapon.
FSS 784.03 Defines Battery as the act of intentionally touching or striking another without permission to do so.
FSS 784.045 Defines Aggravated Battery as that of Battery, with the use of a deadly weapon or causing great bodily harm.
http://www.flsenate.gov/Laws/Statutes/2011/Chapter784/All

According to the chain of events provided in the 911 recordings:
Let us define for the purpose of this argument that:
Z Would be the defendant, George Zimmerman.
N would be the victim, Trayvon Martin.

Z spots M walking in public property in a way which alarmed him.
M notices he has been spotted by a larger person, which is armed.
Z engages in a pursuit with a deadly weapon. (Which entails an aggravated assault)
Z is instructed to cease the pursuit, but refuses to cooperate with law enforcement.
M gets tired and decides that the aggravated assault escalating to the use of force is imminent and stands his ground as prescribed by law. (In good faith he even did retreat although the law did not require that he did)
Z escalates his aggravated assault to Battery.
M meets force with force and uses non lethal force to defend himself.
** Let us note, that Z was almost twice the size of M and M was unarmed. A person half your size cannot pose the threat of great bodily harm or death without a weapon. Also noting that by them attempting to flee, their actions demonstrated that there was no intention of causing any harm.
Z escalates his Battery to Aggravated Battery. (At this point he has illegally fired his weapon and cause the death of a person)

Now, according to the law..
According to FSS 784 Zimmerman committed Aggravated Assault, Battery and then Aggravated Battery of a minor which lead to death.
According to FSS 776, Zimmerman cannot hide behind "Castle Doctrine(FSS.776)" as justification of his actions because he was not in danger of his life or great bodily harm.
According to FSS 782, Zimmerman is Guilty of Murder..

Case closed, or is it? Why does the judicial system allow for the prolonging of such a simple case?

The type of case that you have to consider when looking to see if Zs story is legit. Was Travon a church going communitarian or just a kid, or just a bad kid or just a hood rat with a rap sheet. Those types of things if I were on the jury would affect my judgment as to wether or not George is being honest. And face it, George is the only one with a story so how would you suggest making a sound judgment?

Edited by F3SS, 14 May 2013 - 03:56 AM.

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#1273    xFelix

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 04:12 AM

View PostF3SS, on 14 May 2013 - 03:54 AM, said:

The type of case that you have to consider when looking to see if Zs story is legit. Was Travon a church going communitarian or just a kid, or just a bad kid or just a hood rat with a rap sheet. Those types of things if I were on the jury would affect my judgment as to wether or not George is being honest. And face it, George is the only one with a story so how would you suggest making a sound judgment?

Martin's previous character means nothing in the matter of this case. He does not even need a side in the case at all, the phone calls alone where Zimmerman admitted to forcing engagement on a person who retreated are enough. In fact, he was told to abandon the pursuit, and he did not cooperate, he continued the chase in order to engage his victim.

Martin retreated, he did not want this engagement at all, the engagement was forced upon him by the illegal actions of Zimmerman.
Zimmerman's forceful engagement lead to the death of the victim, which means again murder, not manslaughter or anything else.

The law is clear and concise as to what was done, politics are the only thing motivating anyone to even remotely claim innocence on behalf of Zimmerman.
Our justice system was devised to enforce the law not politics.


View Postand then, on 14 May 2013 - 03:41 AM, said:

I guess the bloody photos of Zimmerman's head and face were staged?  There will be a large contingent in the country who are invested in seeing Zimmerman go to prison for this.  If he does I think it will be a major miscarriage of the law.  If they had charged him with manslaughter or a lesser charge than murder 2 then it would have been easier to convict.  As it is he will probably walk - and some big cities, burn.

Photos of his being stricken are just proof that he did in fact illegally force an engagement in which the victim tried to avoid.

Again, his ILLEGAL chase resulted in his injuries. The victim had NO INTENTION of harming him, this was apparent in the act of fleeing from the engagement.
Zimmerman had every intention of hurting the victim, this was apparent in the illegal chase, and then battery which lead to death of the victim whom tried so hard to AVOID the confrontation.
When someone armed clearly wants to hurt you and you try to run but for whatever you reason you can't seem to get away.. What are you to do? Stand your ground and fight for your life.

If you charged at a member of the NRA with a gun on your waist, completely unprovoked, you can rest assured they would have met force with force.

Edited by xFelix, 14 May 2013 - 04:17 AM.

My posts consist of my opinions, beliefs, and experiences, feel free to disagree in a respectful manner.

I have a right to my beleifs, just as you have a right to not agree with them.

So long as we respect each other's beliefs, we won't have a single problem.


#1274    DieChecker

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 05:12 AM

View PostxFelix, on 14 May 2013 - 03:28 AM, said:

Z spots M walking in public property in a way which alarmed him.
Actually there are several witnesses that say M was between houses.... Private Property.

Quote

M notices he has been spotted by a larger person, which is armed.
M was taller then Z. And Z had a concealed handgun. There is no proof Z had a gun in hand.

Quote

Z engages in a pursuit with a deadly weapon. (Which entails an aggravated assault)
Possibly. And I would support arresting and charging him with such.

Quote

Z is instructed to cease the pursuit, but refuses to cooperate with law enforcement.
911 Dispatchers are not considered law enforcement officers. The 911 operator was making a request based on her training. Z was under no obligation to follow it.

Quote

M gets tired and decides that the aggravated assault escalating to the use of force is imminent and stands his ground as prescribed by law. (In good faith he even did retreat although the law did not require that he did)
So M thought that he was going to be shot anyway and decided to Attack? That is pure speculation. If Z was screaming that he was going to shoot, I think the many neighbors who provided evidence of Z screaming for help while his head was repeatedly slammed into the ground, by the larger, faster, stronger M, would have mentioned it.

Quote

Z escalates his aggravated assault to Battery.
Possible but impossible to prove. What can be shown is that M had no (non-gunshot) injuries other then skinned knuckles. And Z had a broken nose, and gouges in the back of his head from the sidewalk. Who got in the first punch?

Quote

M meets force with force and uses non lethal force to defend himself.
Saying, "I'm going to kill you!" while doing so. And while Z screams for help... blood on his face and in his eyes...

Quote

According to FSS 776, Zimmerman cannot hide behind "Castle Doctrine(FSS.776)" as justification of his actions because he was not in danger of his life or great bodily harm.
Ok, so the teenager who ran off and got away (According to M and Z both in their phone calls), was in deadly danger, but the guy who had the back of his head caved in and his nose broken and a guy saying he's going to kill you is completely Fine and Dandy??

Quote

Case closed, or is it? Why does the judicial system allow for the prolonging of such a simple case? The Justice System, is in actuality the Political Justice System.

According to the same laws, Z was in fear of his life, regardless of instigation, and reacted within the law.


The simplest description of the event is that M saw a suspicious person, who matched the description of burglers in his neighborhood, and he was moving between houses. So he investigated. M ran off. Z called police. Z went looking for M to show the police where he was. M decided he did not want to talk to Z or the police and so tried to beat Z down. But, Z had a concealed handgun and before blacking out, following a serious azz wooping by M, managed to take one shot. Unfortunately for M the shot was fatal.

What did not happen was Z hunting M like a dog because he was black, and then shooting the helpless boy. Then bruising himself about the head to cover up his well planned murder.

There is an outside chance of Negligent Homicide or some other realtively minor charge, but not Murder, or even Manslaughter. There was no premeditation. There was no spontaneos death. It was a rolling on the ground struggle that Z was losing and he thought he might die.

Edited by DieChecker, 14 May 2013 - 05:20 AM.

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

At times one remains faithful to a cause only because its opponents do not cease to be insipid. - Friedrich Nietzsche

Qualifications? This is cryptozoology, dammit! All that is required is the spirit of adventure. - Night Walker

#1275    DieChecker

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 05:47 AM

View PostxFelix, on 14 May 2013 - 04:12 AM, said:

In fact, he was told to abandon the pursuit, and he did not cooperate, he continued the chase in order to engage his victim.
From what I've read of articles and online posts from real Florida Police officers, 911 operators are not Law Enforcement and there is no requirement to obey them.
http://www.realpolic...1-dispatch.html

Quote

Martin retreated, he did not want this engagement at all, the engagement was forced upon him by the illegal actions of Zimmerman.
Zimmerman's forceful engagement lead to the death of the victim, which means again murder, not manslaughter or anything else.
Murder is usually defined as...
Murder is the unlawful killing, with malice aforethought, of another human, and generally this premeditated state of mind distinguishes murder from other forms of unlawful homicide (such as manslaughter).

So unless a premeditation can be shown, murder is off the table. You can't walk up to someone and then decide to murder them spontaneously. That is Manslaughter.

Manslaughter is usually defined as...
Involuntary manslaughter is the unlawful killing of a human being without malice aforethought, either express or implied. It is distinguished from voluntary manslaughter by the absence of intention.

So at best Z is looking at Manslaughter unless some kind of premeditation can be found.

Quote

Photos of his being stricken are just proof that he did in fact illegally force an engagement in which the victim tried to avoid.
The GirlFriend phone call by M seems pretty clear that M and Z were talking, and that M decided to cease trying to get away. Also during the call with the GF there is no statement by the GF that Z was trying to kill M.

Quote

Zimmerman had every intention of hurting the victim, this was apparent in the illegal chase, and then battery which lead to death of the victim whom tried so hard to AVOID the confrontation.
What is clear is that Z wanted M to being questioned by the police. He was following M, not hunting him. If Z wanted to simply kill someone, he should not have called the police before doing so. The evidence actually supports that Z only wanted M to answer questions.

Quote

When someone armed clearly wants to hurt you and you try to run but for whatever you reason you can't seem to get away.. What are you to do? Stand your ground and fight for your life.
That is true, but there is proof M knew Z was armed. There is no proof M knew Z wanted to hurt him. There is no proof M could not get away. (He was living just a few doors down after all.) There is actually no proof at all to support your story, other then a bunch of "What if" statements.

Quote

If you charged at a member of the NRA with a gun on your waist, completely unprovoked, you can rest assured they would have met force with force.
Sure. Did Z have a gun in his hand? Did Z throw the first punch? What proof is there?

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

At times one remains faithful to a cause only because its opponents do not cease to be insipid. - Friedrich Nietzsche

Qualifications? This is cryptozoology, dammit! All that is required is the spirit of adventure. - Night Walker




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