177 replies to this topic

[me-wonders]

the_realist, on 07 December 2012 - 08:57 PM, said:

Wow didn't realize that you were actually there on the day. Must have been terrifying for you. As only those who were there on the day actually know who fired first considering the Government went charging in guns drawn "Ready to shoot" and confronted an unarmed David Koresh at the front door.

Amazing that film crews were there recording the whole thing however mysteriously the opening minutes of the scuttle between the Davidians and the Government have somehow been lost.

Please tell us your amazing story of survival from there please as we would all like to know how you know who shot first.... unless your just another government drone where they say the sky is green and you say "Yes the sky is green"

What really troubles me about this event is the local police department requested that they be allowed to handle this situation.  David walked the streets, and people knew him.  Things could have gone down very differently, and I believe they went the way they did, because those in power were experimenting with the power they had.  What could they do with it and how would the public react?

The tragedy of this is, it was exactly what these people feared was happening in the US.   That is why they were armed in the first place.  It is kind of like, be careful what you wish for, because you may get it.  The same rule may apply to what we fear.  The numbers of ways we adopted the German military machine, and Eisenhower's warning of the Military Industrial Complex screams in my head.   I don't think David and his followers were nut cases, but that the rest of us are in denial.

Let me be clear about this.  The police requested to be left with the responsibility of handling the situation, and the fed's denied them the chance to do so.   I was not there but spoke an X police officer who was.  He was traumatized by what happened and the helplessness of the police department to manage things differently.

Edited by me-wonders, 08 December 2012 - 04:20 AM.

[Rafterman]

me-wonders, on 08 December 2012 - 04:18 AM, said:

What really troubles me about this event is the local police department requested that they be allowed to handle this situation.  David walked the streets, and people knew him.  Things could have gone down very differently, and I believe they went the way they did, because those in power were experimenting with the power they had.  What could they do with it and how would the public react?

The tragedy of this is, it was exactly what these people feared was happening in the US.   That is why they were armed in the first place.  It is kind of like, be careful what you wish for, because you may get it.  The same rule may apply to what we fear.  The numbers of ways we adopted the German military machine, and Eisenhower's warning of the Military Industrial Complex screams in my head.   I don't think David and his followers were nut cases, but that the rest of us are in denial.

Let me be clear about this.  The police requested to be left with the responsibility of handling the situation, and the fed's denied them the chance to do so.   I was not there but spoke an X police officer who was.  He was traumatized by what happened and the helplessness of the police department to manage things differently.

And while all of this might be accurate, it doesn't change the fact that had the Davidians simply walked out of the compound with their hands raised, they'd all still be alive today.  Was the ATF going to machine gun surrendering civilians on national television?

The choice was theirs.

[monk 56]

Interesting long documentary below regarding foreign policy of U.S. in Central and South America, however only watch when you have time!

Produced by John Pilger, info below:-

http://en.wikipedia....iki/John_Pilger

Video below:-

[me-wonders]

Rafterman, on 08 December 2012 - 02:53 PM, said:

And while all of this might be accurate, it doesn't change the fact that had the Davidians simply walked out of the compound with their hands raised, they'd all still be alive today.  Was the ATF going to machine gun surrendering civilians on national television?

The choice was theirs.

I think you miss the point.  I am not sure the problem was the people in David's compound, but where our government is going.  Here is another look at what is happening.  It is a legal one.  It is the removal of law that has protected us from being like Syria and Egypt.

http://www.libertyfo...s_destroyed.htm

Quote

U.S. Military To Assault U.S. Citizens: 1878 Posse Comitatus Act Destroyed

In yet another astonishingly treasonous act the U.S. administration has eliminated yet another key check to control out of control government, the 1878 Posse Comitatus Act.  The Posse Comitatus Act abolished the use of the U.S. military against our own citizens and eliminated the ability of the U.S. government to eliminate the U.S. Constitution and Bill of Rights by declaring Martial Law.
In early 2006 Congress passed bill H.R.5122 granting the President the right to commandeer Federal and State National Guard Troops for use against citizens.  The bill is entitled the John Warner Defense Appropriation Act for Fiscal Year 2007

Edited by me-wonders, 08 December 2012 - 04:09 PM.

[me-wonders]

Monk 58, I do not have the patience to watch when I can not understand what people are saying.  However, I belonged to a club of that started as an older men's club.  These people were not rich, but most of them were comfortable, and they saw nothing wrong with protecting the commons for themselves.  As in your video, what matters is protecting the commons for the people who can afford to live in the better neighborhoods, and shop in the malls, and those who live in poverty outside of this, do not matter.  Kind of like, if you can not afford the property in a Monopoly game, you are out of the game.   Those who are out of the game are like cattle.  They can be used for maids and gardeners, but if their children go to bed hungry, that is not your problem.  You see, if this money were spread among everyone, everyone would be living in poverty, and the bible tells there will always be poverty, and it is not your fault but the will of God.   It is not our responsibility to do more that donate to charity.  Our tax dollars are best spent on FEMA and the military that protects our way of life.  

PS however, we should not be taxed for our wars.  When we go into war, we are supposed to secure that countries resources such as oil, and that is how we should pay for our wars.   I am not kidding.  We didn't budget for the war on Iraq, we tried to do the war on the cheap by using the National Guard, which is promoted as helping people at home during times of disaster, not as war adventures, and we did not go in prepared to protect the people we invaded and in absolutely no way could have been considered our enemy.   Let us ignore, that this pushed up our national debt and we must cut programs such as Social Security and health care, to avoid returning taxes to the rich to where they were many years ago.

Edited by me-wonders, 08 December 2012 - 05:14 PM.

[The New Richard Nixon]

Oh god, Chavez...gotta put up with him another 4 years!!!!

[Rafterman]

me-wonders, on 08 December 2012 - 03:50 PM, said:

I think you miss the point.  I am not sure the problem was the people in David's compound, but where our government is going.  Here is another look at what is happening.  It is a legal one.  It is the removal of law that has protected us from being like Syria and Egypt.

http://www.libertyfo...s_destroyed.htm

More of your Anti-Bush ranting nonsense.  Funny how no one seems to have a problem with this law following January 2009, isn't it?  And if this is all about power and control, why didn't Obama use it against the Tea Party protests or Occupy Wall Street?  You'd think that such an evil Federal Government would round up all decenters and put them in those FEMA camps, right?

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that this was in reaction to the criticism directed toward the Federal Government following Katrina.  "Why didn't Bush send in the Army?"  "Why didn't Bush send in the National Guard?"  Well, until this change to the law, it was illegal for a President to do so.

[me-wonders]

Rafterman, on 09 December 2012 - 04:12 PM, said:

More of your Anti-Bush ranting nonsense.  Funny how no one seems to have a problem with this law following January 2009, isn't it?  And if this is all about power and control, why didn't Obama use it against the Tea Party protests or Occupy Wall Street?  You'd think that such an evil Federal Government would round up all decenters and put them in those FEMA camps, right?

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that this was in reaction to the criticism directed toward the Federal Government following Katrina.  "Why didn't Bush send in the Army?"  "Why didn't Bush send in the National Guard?"  Well, until this change to the law, it was illegal for a President to do so.

When I write I am writing about the Military Industrial Complex that was established during the Eisenhower administration and has grown in power ever since.   Having a high IQ has little to do with knowing what is happening, because understanding what is happening is about getting the information, and we are not ignoring it.

The National Guard was sent in to when Katrina hit.

This is from Wikipedia

Quote

On September 24, 1957 President Dwight D. Eisenhower federalized the entire Arkansas National Guard in order to ensure the safe entry of the Little Rock 9 to Little Rock Central High School the following day. Governor Orval Faubus had previously used members of the guard to deny the students entry to the school.
The New York National Guard were ordered by Governor Nelson A. Rockefeller to respond to the Rochester 1964 race riot in July of that year, the first such use of the Guard in a Northern city since the Civil War. The California Army National Guard were mobilized by the Governor of California Edmund Gerald Brown, Sr. during the Watts Riots, in August 1965, to provide security and help restore order.
Elements of the Ohio Army National Guard were ordered to Kent State University by Ohio's governor Jim Rhodes to quell anti-Vietnam War protests, culminating in their shooting into a crowd of students on May 4, 1970, killing four and injuring nine.
The 2 Battalion 138th Field Artillery of the Kentucky Army National Guard was ordered to service in Vietnam in late 1968. The unit served in support of the regular 101st Airborne Division. The Battalion's C Battery lost 9 men killed and thirty-two wounded when North Vietnamese troops overran Fire Base Tomahawk on June 19, 1969.^[28]



After 1992 Los Angeles Riots 4,000 National Guard troops patrolled the city to enforce the law.
During the LA Riots in 1992, when portions of south central Los Angeles erupted in chaos, overwhelming the Los Angeles Police Department's ability to contain the violence, the California Army National Guard and selected units of the California Air National Guard was mobilized to help restore order. The National Guard were attributed with five shootings of people suspected of violating the curfew order placed on the city.
During the 1993 Waco Siege of the Branch Davidians, elements of the Alabama and Texas Army National Guard were called in to assist the ATF and the follow on effort by the FBI; the National Guard's involvement was limited to several specific areas; surveillance and reconnaissance, transport, maintenance and repairs, training and instruction, helicopters, unarmed tactical ground vehicles. The Army National Guard helicopters were also used to do photographic reconnaissance work. Training for ATF included such subjects as Close Quarters Combat, and combat medical instruction, and a mock up of the Mount Carmel complex was constructed at Fort Hood, Texas for rehearsals. ATF also received several surplus helmets, flack vests, canteens, first aid dressings, empty magazines, and some night-vision equipment, in addition to MREs and diesel fuel. The FBI would request and receive the use of Bradley Armored Fighing Vehicles, and tank retrieval vehicles, as well as overflights by UH-1 and CH-47 helicopters.^[29]
As a result of the Bottom Up Review and post-Cold War force cutbacks, the Army National Guard maneuver force was reduced to eight divisions (from ten; the 26th Infantry and 50th Armored were consolidated in the northeastern states) and fifteen 'enhanced brigades,' which were supposed to be ready for combat operations, augmenting the active force, within 90 days.^[30]
21st century




The National Guard Memorial Building in Washington, D.C.
National Guard units played a major role in providing security and assisting recovery efforts in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, in September 2005.

Edited by me-wonders, 10 December 2012 - 05:53 PM.

[the_realist]

Rafterman, on 08 December 2012 - 02:53 PM, said:

And while all of this might be accurate, it doesn't change the fact that had the Davidians simply walked out of the compound with their hands raised, they'd all still be alive today.  Was the ATF going to machine gun surrendering civilians on national television?

The choice was theirs.

Um... this would be true if the government weren't shooting into the compound while the fire was on... I am friends with some of the few survivors and all have stated it was a choice to burn or risk being shot jumping from the building.

Would you trust the government if they surrounded your house and told you to come out - nothing would happen to you and then starting shooting the moment they saw movement? Would you trust the government if they said they aren't coming into your house and then 5 minutes later tanks were coming in destroying your house "making escape holes" for you on your second story?

The truth is that this could have been handled allot easier than it was... and it was a blatant abuse of power and the government declared war on its own people. The night before the siege started Koresh was in town they could have walked up to him arrested him and then executed their search warrant instead they hold off for their glorified entrance.

[AsteroidX]

Didnt want to go through the whole thing....So these may have been mentioned

Ruby Ridge- Refusal to become a confidential informant


Kent State-  Apparently peaceful anti-war protest. Common at the time on college campuses around the country

[rashore]

me-wonders, on 08 December 2012 - 03:50 PM, said:

I think you miss the point.  I am not sure the problem was the people in David's compound, but where our government is going.  Here is another look at what is happening.  It is a legal one.  It is the removal of law that has protected us from being like Syria and Egypt.

http://www.libertyfo...s_destroyed.htm

I may be mistaken, but I think the Section 1076 spoken of in the link was repealed in 2008.

[me-wonders]

rashore, on 17 December 2012 - 05:29 PM, said:

I may be mistaken, but I think the Section 1076 spoken of in the link was repealed in 2008.

That is all you have to say?  And now one else has anything to say?  Do we need to question why the Germans did not stop the NAZI hijacking for their republic?  Like perhaps this subject should go with the Social Security thread and government "borrowing" from Social Security.  We have no more control over what our government does, than 6 year old has control over the school system.

[AsteroidX]

@Me Wonders I recently took out  a copy of the Declaration of Independence and read the greivances which the colonies had at that time towards the crown. While reading that list I was able to find many similiarities to todays conditions in America. Paying close attention to the 2nd Paragraph as well.

[me-wonders]

AsteroidX, on 17 December 2012 - 06:22 PM, said:

@Me Wonders I recently took out  a copy of the Declaration of Independence and read the greivances which the colonies had at that time towards the crown. While reading that list I was able to find many similiarities to todays conditions in America. Paying close attention to the 2nd Paragraph as well.

Yeah, look at the "borrowing" from Social Security.  I think we are in big trouble, because things seem to be so out of our control.   I take hope when someone appears to care enough to look at the information and our Declaration of Independence and makes the effort to understand our past and present.  Thank you!

[me-wonders]

It should be known Richard M. Nixon got into government through Eisenhower, the president when the Military Industrial Complex was established.  I am sure there are good reasons for everything, so I am not saying there is an evil conspiracy, but that those in power may not be thinking of everything, and when we do not know what is happening, we do not maintain control of what happens.  What frightens me most is not "them" but our own carelessness.  Always, what protected our liberty is a mass educated to defend our liberty by watching the government and participating in decisions making on all levels.  We are no longer educated for this and it is not what is happening.  I think being better informed about the history of Germany would be helpful, because we adopted the German model of bureaucracy that shifts power from the individual to the state, the German model of education that prepares the young to rely on authority, German philosophy replaced the classics, and finally, all the German military technology including the CIA.  

Quote

http://en.wikipedia....i/David_Packard

Defense Department

Upon entering office in 1969, President Richard M. Nixon appointed Packard U.S. Deputy Secretary of Defense under Secretary of Defense Melvin Laird.^[4] Packard resigned in December 1971^[8][9] and returned to Hewlett-Packard in 1972 as Chairman of the Board.
While serving in the DoD, he brought concepts of resource management used in business to the military, as well as establishing the Defense Systems Management College.^[10]
Near the end of his time at DoD, Packard wrote the "Packard Memo" or "Employment of Military Resources in the Event of Civil Disturbances".^[11] Enacted in February 1972, the Act^[12] describes exceptions to the 1878 Posse Comitatus Act, which limited the powers of the federal government to use the U.S. military for law enforcement, except where expressly authorized by the Constitution or Act of Congress — noting that the Constitution provides an exception when needed "to prevent loss of life or wanton destruction of property and to restore governmental functioning and public order when sudden and unexpected civil disturbances, disasters, or calamities seriously endanger life and property and disrupt normal governmental functions to such an extent that duly constituted local authorities are unable to control the situations" and "to protect Federal property and Federal governmental functions when the need for protection exists and duly constituted local authorities are unable or decline to provide adequate protection".^[13] § 214.5 states that "employment of DoD military resources for assistance to civil authorities in controlling civil disturbances will normally be predicated upon the issuance of a Presidential Executive order or Presidential directive authorizing", with exceptions "limited to:

• Cases of sudden and unexpected emergencies as described in §215.4©(1)(i), which require that immediate military action be taken.
  
• Providing military resources to civil authorities as prescribed in §215.9 of this part."^[14]

According to Lindorff, these exceptions essentially reinstate the possibility of Martial law in the U.S., prohibited since 1878.^[15]
In the 1970s and 1980s Packard was a prominent advisor to the White House on defense procurement and management. He served as Chairman of The Business Council in 1973 and 1974.^[16] In 1985-86, he served as chairman of The Packard Commission.

Edited by me-wonders, 17 December 2012 - 06:37 PM.