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[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood


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#4831    Otharus

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 12:08 PM

View PostAlewyn, on 12 May 2011 - 05:07 AM, said:

I find your research into the 19th century investigation of the existance of the OLB very interesting. What is the earliest confirmed date that people knew about the existance of the book? Was it in the 1940's or 1930's [1840's or 1830's]?
Thanks Alewyn, and no worries, I also feel a bit frustrated sometimes when (i.m.o.) important issues are left undiscussed and whole pages are (i.m.o.) wasted on irrelevant  or minor details. Then again, we're all free-willing amateurs.

First of all, I'm sure you ment 1840/1830's (corected in quote above).

Yes, there are several witness reports that indicate that in the 30's and 40's of the 19th century, the manuscript existed already and/or that the Over de Lindens believed that they stemmed from an ancient noble Frisian family.

In addition to my posts from April 11 and 19, I'll give an improvised summary and add some new information here.

(With thanks to Menno Knul who mailed me 5 scanned pages of "Het geheimzinnige handschrift van de Familie Over de Linden" by E. Molenaar, 1949. They can now be found here: http://fryskednis.bl...ift-van-de.html)

Here is some facts (not all!) related to the question whether the OLB existed long before Cornelis Over de Linden tried to have it translated by Eelco Verwijs in 1867.

(Note: this was shortly after Cornelis' friend Ernst Stadermann's death, which could mean that the latter had tried to help him translate it before, without succes. But this is just a guess, as the events may not be related at all. For Menno Knul, this is reason to believe that Stadermann was one of the 'hoaxers'.)

1. Schoolteacher Cornelis Wijs stated in 1876 that in 1831 he had heard Jan Over de Linden (1785-1835), the father of Cornelis, boost about descending from "the oldest family in the world".

2. Two other schoolteachers made an official statement with a notary, that in 1848 they had heard Cornelis Over de Linden junior (1833-1868) boost about virtually the same (being from ancient noble Frisian descent), as well as his father (Cornelis senior) knowing this from "a book with strange letters".

3. Naval officer W.M. Visser had made a diary note on 23-12-1854 of having heard from Cornelis Over de Linden that the latter had told him about the book and that it was written "in a strange language and a strange script".

4. Beckering Vinkers wrote that Cornelis had picked up the manuscript in 1848 in Enkhuizen together with his son Cornelis (source not mentioned).

5. New information
Translated from Molenaar (1949), a quote from Jacob Munnik, who was married to a pre-marital daughter of Cornelis Over de Linden's first wife (which makes him Cornelis' step-son-in-law.)

"In 1845 (a year before my marriage), C. Over de Linden, bookbinder Stadermann and me went on a little tour together (to Enkhuizen). We visited an old skipper, where Over de Linden's mother was a housekeeper. C.O.L. spoke with his mother and the old man in private and when we had left Enkhuizen, he said: "It's a bloody shame; the old one has an old book that belongs to us and he does not want to hand it over. It proves that our family is old." He also spoke about forested areas, like royal domains with many Linden-trees etcetra. "But it is old-Frisian; that's the bloody problem!", Cornelis had said.
For a few years he has been complaining about it (from 1845-1847), but in the meantime he had started to learn the old-Frisian language."


I agree with author Molenaar that Munnik probably had confused the old skipper with Hendrik Reuvers, the husband of aunt Aafje, whom they will also have visited.

6. More new information
Again from Molenaar (1949), who writes about an article in the Friesche Courant of 30-4-1877, written by M.K. de Jong, schoolmaster in the village Kooten. He states that a trustworthy fellow villager had declared that "about 40 years ago" (ca. 1837) "his uncle Leendert Over de Linden had told him that there were some very old manuscripts kept by the Over de Linden family."

7. Relevant to know is also that Hein Kofman (1853-1933), who was said to have heard that Cornelis Over de Linden had stolen the OLB from the house of his parents, lived all his life in the house of his parents Rijkent Kofman and Cornelia Reuvers (1818-1878), which had also been the house of his grandparents Hendrik Reuvers and Aafje Over de Linden (1798-1849) as well as the house of Andries Over de Linden (1759-1820) and IJfje Schols. This means that since the death of Andries Over de Linden in 1820, the manuscript has stayed in the same house until Cornelis took it to Den Helder in 1848.

Cornelia Kofman-Reuvers would have stated that "without doubt the manuscript had been kept here [in her house] in a corner, covered with dust." She did not remember how long it had stayed there and when it had been moved to Den Helder.

8. Another aunt of Cornelis, Antje Van Doornik-Over de Linden (1795-1882), when asked in 1876, said not to have heard of the manuscript.

~ ~ ~

For now, not having much time (packing my bags), I leave the conclusions to all this to the forum, but not without adding that I totally agree with Alewyn that...:

Quote

Jensma's view that this was another old book (now lost), is so lame, and in fact, pathetic that it should be rejected by anyone with a bit of sense. Yet, because he is a professor people actually believe him. Imagine that. They had an old book which they threw away and then created a totally "new" old book.

Finally, once more about the paper research report:

If the paper would indeed have been from the 19th century and if it would indeed have been artificially colored, this should have been easy to prove with the nowaday techniques.

Therefore, my layman conclusion:

The paper was not artificially colored and does not come from a European or American factory.

Some questions:

A. Does anyone know about paper making techniques in the Byzantium or Asia?

B. Did any of the oldest Over de Linden bookshops have ways of obtaining (or making) unique paper (to make one or more copies)?


#4832    Otharus

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 12:26 PM

View PostKnul, on 12 May 2011 - 06:43 AM, said:

For those who are interested in the word foddik = lamp, there is breaking news on my website: www.rodinbook.nl.
Great Menno, but please change this:

... dat over de hele wereld groepen vrouwen (maagden ?), die zich dochters van Freya noemen,  hun lamp brandend houden.

Now THAT's a hoax. (It's not true.)


#4833    Otharus

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 12:34 PM

View PostKnul, on 12 May 2011 - 06:43 AM, said:

For those who are interested in the word foddik = lamp, there is breaking news on my website: www.rodinbook.nl.
Sorry Menno, I was just going to check it (kept forgetting):

Jensma (2006), p.83: possible source for "foddik" is "Proeve van een Friesch en Nederlandsch woordenboek" by M. de Haan Hettema (1832).


#4834    Otharus

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 12:45 PM

Something I wanted to post earlier, just for the record as some sources state the wrong date, the death certificate of Andries Over de Linden, died 25 April 1820, Enkhuizen, Oude Rietdijk.
Posted Image


#4835    Abramelin

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 12:46 PM

View PostOtharus, on 12 May 2011 - 12:34 PM, said:

Sorry Menno, I was just going to check it (kept forgetting):

Jensma (2006), p.83: possible source for "foddik" is "Proeve van een Friesch en Nederlandsch woordenboek" by M. de Haan Hettema (1832).

Yeah, thanks:

Posted Image

From 1832:
Proeve van een friesch en Nederlandsch woordenboek

http://books.google....epage&q&f=false


#4836    Alewyn

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 12:49 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 12 May 2011 - 05:23 AM, said:

No, that's NOT what I said either. I've posted about several events that were happening in and around that general point in time. What I have said REPEATEDLY is that there is no evidence that can be pinned to the 2193/2194 BC date SPECIFICALLY like you have claimed several times. There STILL remains no evidence that corroborates that specific date, whether from the OLB or your own personal claims/misinterpretations of fact, which Swede and I both mentioned somewhere back around Page 9 or so, IIRC.
cormac
You are really one gutsy Brave as long as you can remain anonymous, aren't you. Here I specifically refer to your terms "personal claims/misinterpretations of fact".  

Now for once, do you or don't you agree that all the events around the 2200 BC event happened at the same time? Please stop beating around the bush and give us a straight answer.

If you do, then we can go to the next FACT.  Professor Harvey Weiss, after some 26 years of work, declared that the Akkadian Empire came to fall in 2193 BC. This just happens to be EXACTLY the same date that the Oera Linda Book used and is only 7 years away from the generally used date of 2200 BC. Next, please consult the Sumerian King List, etc. and then tell me, where did I "misrepresent" anything. If you cannot use some logic or deductive reasoning, then just keep your cheap defamatory comments to yourself.

If, on the other hand, you remain adamant that these are all separate events, then I have really nothing more to say to you. You seem to want to portray the image of an academic but you cannot even begin to display some form of deductive reasoning, lateral thinking or logic. What you have learned and, heaven forbid, taught, is just so far removed from the possibilities we are discussing here that it just seems to go right over your head. If everyone had your attitude the earth would still have been flat and at the centre of the Universe.


#4837    Otharus

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 01:10 PM

Well spoken Alewyn.

BTW, when I'm back home in Westfriesland I'll go the Enkhuizer Almanak Museum (in Enkhuizen) and see if I can find out what their source was for the year of the Big Flood.


#4838    The Puzzler

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 01:24 PM

Well said Alewyn.

Thanks for your answer on the Rustringens Abe.

I guess what I'm doing is seeing if what Otharus said before could be true.

That the Phoenician language could have come AFTER the OLB language - we deciphered DEL for that.

Generally the connections in languages are interesting me and I enjoy following them around to find out the bases of words and how they might relate the the OLB text. I think that the words of English and other languages seem to go down to a few basic sound words that other words then radiate off in different languages.

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#4839    Abramelin

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 01:58 PM

View PostAlewyn, on 12 May 2011 - 12:49 PM, said:


If you do, then we can go to the next FACT.  Professor Harvey Weiss, after some 26 years of work, declared that the Akkadian Empire came to fall in 2193 BC. This just happens to be EXACTLY the same date that the Oera Linda Book used and is only 7 years away from the generally used date of 2200 BC. Next, please consult the Sumerian King List, etc. and then tell me, where did I "misrepresent" anything. If you cannot use some logic or deductive reasoning, then just keep your cheap defamatory comments to yourself.


Alewyn, I just read a very detailed article about Harvey Weiss and his discovery:

Here's a quote from page 6:

[ Collapse of Earliest Known Empire Is Linked to Long, Harsh Drought ]

(...)

* 2254-2218 B.C.: Reign of Manishtushu's son Naram-Sin, thought to be the first to claim kingship as a divine right. His downfall was traditionally ascribed to divine retribution in the form of invading hordes from the east, called the Gutians. However, new research suggests complex internal problems and the beginning of a 300-year drought as the culprits. * 2217-2193: Reign of his son Shar-kali-sharri, followed by a period of anarchy. *2200 B.C.: Volcanic eruption in Anatolia, after which many Akkadian settlements are abandoned.

http://www.nytimes.c...wanted=6&src=pm

Maybe I read it wrong, but what I underlined suggests the climatic troubles started before 2193 BC. , and at least as early as 2218 BC. That's 25 years before 2193 BC.

+++++++++

BUT... now we have two volcanoes erupting at maybe the same time or within 3 years from eachother (that is the time-period the OLB talks about): Campi Flegrei & some Anatolian volcano.


.

Edited by Abramelin, 12 May 2011 - 02:08 PM.


#4840    The Puzzler

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 03:01 PM

Yes, how interesting on the Anatolian volcano.

What I wanted to do was see if skelda and skelde were related.

Scheldt and shield.

Scheldt as shallows and SHOALS makes them relative to shield. See end of post.

----------------------

The shield is a divider, from danger or enemies or the sea.

Dutch is dam and dyke.

A dyke is a woman who loves women, so the word is relative to a woman.

A dam is an animal mother, often a dog - the Dam.

The word dam is actually relative to shield.

The mother dam protects also.

She sheilds the young. The first thing a mother does is that action, she picks it up and curls her arms around it like a shield. These words come from very basic and ancient actions and meanings. A mother is female shield/dam.

She is Ma Dam = earth mother shield protector.

Ma in Sumerian mythology creates the primordial mound. (which is the earthy mud)

Mother shield protector is mother really, a woman, a lady, a dame.

shield then as shoal goes to sur - which really is the divider again, the barrier, protector but this time it's the TOP - the sur, the tor

So, Sir is top shield
Madam is earth mother shield

shields - childs = children..??

A mare is a mother horse. It is literally an Earth Mother.

Another aspect of Demeter, was known as the Aganippe "the Mare who destroys mercifully", a black winged horse worshiped by certain cults.

da-ma-te - Linear B - (Demeter)

(my interpretation)

Mare is also sea, but it's not really sea, it's MIRE - that is MUD/BLACK EARTH (swampy ground) - that is PEL, that is FEN.

The MUD as mire, which is mare is why Demeter is both an Earth Mother and a Horse.

SO, it gives it away that MIRE and MARE are the same.

da (dam) - ma (mare/myre) - te (top)

female shield /black earth /top,highest.

Top protector of the Earth = Earth Mother.

mada - Earth dam

midden really is an earth dam.

The Earth mercifully destroys us at her will.
Poseidon was her mate on Crete in the Linear B.
He would be the masculine of this concept.

Both were protectors of the Earth - top shields.

They had a daughter, a mare, her name is never revealed.

---------------

shield
O.E. scield, scild, related to sciell (see shell), from P.Gmc. *skeldus (cf. O.N. skjöldr, O.S. skild, M.Du. scilt, Du. schild, Ger. Schild, Goth. skildus), from base *skel- "divide, split, separate,"

shell (n.)
O.E. sciell, scill, Anglian scell "seashell, eggshell," related to O.E. scealu "shell, husk," from P.Gmc. *skaljo "divide, separate" (cf. W.Fris. skyl "peel, rind,

skel is the base for divide, seperate - shield
related to shell
shell means also divide, seperate - this relates to PEEL

skel then, should be the word for both shell and shield

shoal is also a bar, divider, seperater - sand bank.
Posted Image

Edited by The Puzzler, 12 May 2011 - 03:14 PM.

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#4841    The Puzzler

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 03:35 PM

Probably why our FAMILY crests are on SHIELDS.

On that note, I'm off to bed.

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#4842    Otharus

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 04:06 PM

One more for The Puzzler (sorry Abe and Alewyn, but sometimes we need a bit of fun here too)

del = ordinaire vrouw
translations
German: Schlampe, Flittchen
English: slvt, tart
French: salope, garce
Norwegian: sjuske
Spanish: puerca


http://nl.wiktionary.org/wiki/del

Edited by Otharus, 12 May 2011 - 04:06 PM.


#4843    Abramelin

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 04:21 PM

Heh, but a chain is as strong as it weakest shackle:


madam comes from Latin: mea domina

++

EDIT:

Lol, no problems with having fun at all: I 'found out' this morning that the, ahem... etymology of Jadebusen is "worn out old mare drinking to excess".

.

Edited by Abramelin, 12 May 2011 - 04:24 PM.


#4844    Alewyn

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 04:47 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 12 May 2011 - 01:58 PM, said:

Alewyn, I just read a very detailed article about Harvey Weiss and his discovery:

Here's a quote from page 6:

[ Collapse of Earliest Known Empire Is Linked to Long, Harsh Drought ]

(...)

* 2254-2218 B.C.: Reign of Manishtushu's son Naram-Sin, thought to be the first to claim kingship as a divine right. His downfall was traditionally ascribed to divine retribution in the form of invading hordes from the east, called the Gutians. However, new research suggests complex internal problems and the beginning of a 300-year drought as the culprits. * 2217-2193: Reign of his son Shar-kali-sharri, followed by a period of anarchy. *2200 B.C.: Volcanic eruption in Anatolia, after which many Akkadian settlements are abandoned.

http://www.nytimes.c...wanted=6&src=pm

Maybe I read it wrong, but what I underlined suggests the climatic troubles started before 2193 BC. , and at least as early as 2218 BC. That's 25 years before 2193 BC.

+++++++++

BUT... now we have two volcanoes erupting at maybe the same time or within 3 years from eachother (that is the time-period the OLB talks about): Campi Flegrei & some Anatolian volcano.


.
Abe,
Have a look at what Wikipedia has to say:

http://en.wikipedia....Akkadian_Empire

"The Empire of Akkad collapsed in 2154 BC, within 180 years of its founding, ushering in a period of regional decline that lasted until the rise of the Sumerian Third Dynasty of Ur in 2112 BC. By the end of the reign of Naram-Sin's son, Shar-kali-sharri (2217-2193 BC), the empire had weakened. There was a period of anarchy between 2192 BC and 2168 BC. Shu-Durul (2168-2154 BC) appears to have restored some order, however he was unable to prevent the empire eventually collapsing outright from the invasion of barbarian peoples from the Zagros Mountains known as the Gutians."

As you can see, after Shar-kali-sharri's death in 2193 BC, there was a period of anarchy. This is exactly what the OLB says. After the OLB's disaster in 2193 BC there was a period of anarchy and invasions from the East and people were enslaved.

The King list indicates that a number of kings ruled after Shar-kali-sharri's death during this period of turmoil. The (weakened) Akkadian empire was finally sacked by the Gutians in 2154 BC. It would appear that Harvey Weiss used this date of Shar-kali-sharri's death to date the Akkadian disaster. Perhaps Shar-kali-sharri died in the disaster.

My point: To my knowledge, non of this was known in the 19th century. Yet, the OLB's description is just too close to be a coincidence. To me, this is hard evidence in favour of the OLB's authenticity.

Edit: Please also note Prof. Weiss' referance to volcanic dust at Tell Leilan. (His paper "Desert Storm")
The OLB also talks about volcanoes erupting in 2193 BC. Unfortunately it does not say where.

Edited by Alewyn, 12 May 2011 - 04:55 PM.


#4845    Abramelin

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 04:58 PM

Wait a minute: the OLB disaster started in 2193 BC and lasted for 3 years.

According to Harvey Weiss the disaster/climatic changes already started between 2254 and 2218 BC, but yes, then after 2193 BC there started a period of anarchy.

I did some reading, and the area affected appears to be somewhat in one line: Egypt, Sumer/Akkad, Indus:

Posted Image

True, this was not known in the 19th century, but what have you found about what happened all over ancient Europe at the same time?

For I understand that it's about Frya's land (Europe) that we talk about concerning these disasters.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 12 May 2011 - 05:07 PM.