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How do skeptics explain Qi Gong


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#16    SolarPlexus

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 09:48 PM

Yes this energy exists in all of us ...

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#17    White Crane Feather

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 12:22 AM

View PostRlyeh, on 18 August 2012 - 03:06 PM, said:

That's really got nothing to do with some make believe conspiracy.
What conspiracy? There are profit centers and people with lots of money and lawyers to protect those profit centers. The pharmaceuticals made profits off of everyone addicted to or dead from legally made narcotics..... You don't think they know that?   It's cut and dry... Just your style.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#18    jsowersby

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 02:29 AM

View PostRlyeh, on 18 August 2012 - 01:37 PM, said:

The education level of some of you people is terrible.

Edit: Please find out about clinical trials and active ingredients before spewing such garbage.

Aside from antibiotics, can you name any drugs that CURE the ailment they are prescribed for. Meaning, after the patient stops taking the drug as prescribed, they are without symptoms for longer than a year. You can leave out pain killers, high/low blood pressure meds, meds for diabetes, psychiatric meds, thyroid medication, cholesterol meds, GERD meds, and steroids.

By the way, most of the conditions these meds are prescribed for are reversable with diet . What's the point of knowing the active ingredients in a medication if it doesn't cure anything?

Your dig at educational level is childish. What I'm saying is simple logic. If back pain is treated with pain medications, muscle relaxers, anti-inflammatories it will persist. These medications do nothing to cure the condition which may be treatable many ways without addictive narcotic pain medication.


#19    jsowersby

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 02:33 AM

View PostAtlantia, on 18 August 2012 - 01:51 PM, said:

I'd love to see these Chi demonstrations done under scientific conditions. I saw a doctor in Java light a ball of newspaper with his hand and give people electric shocks directly from his hands.
Problem is that without scientific testing these demonstrations are similar to things we see showmen and magicians in the west do.
the first chap walks on the paper sheets and tells us that he can will himself lighter? I saw david blaine levitate and we don't think it's anything other than fake when he does that? Why didn't they get the old master to stand on some scales and make himself lighter?
The baseball bat and the guys torso was very uninspiring. I've seen Japanese martial artists chop fruit on people full speed without cutting them.
The guy who was the target stepped into the blow to cover the deceleration and 'pull-back' as he pulled the blow.
Would have been much more impressive if they'd said:
"Heres your assistant who you were expecting to hit you.... and here is a random bloke we've just dragged in off the street who'se going to take his place"
Power unknown to western science of clever trick?
Without the proper testing I'm thinking a mixture of training, disciplin, visual trickery and intentional deception.

Explain bending the spear with his throat. The scientist who was there could not explain it. She explained it well, that qi cannot be quantified in known scientific terms. Explain the thermal camera showing heat emanating from Zhou's hands.


#20    White Crane Feather

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 02:59 AM

View Postjsowersby, on 19 August 2012 - 02:33 AM, said:



Explain bending the spear with his throat. The scientist who was there could not explain it. She explained it well, that qi cannot be quantified in known scientific terms. Explain the thermal camera showing heat emanating from Zhou's hands.
I'm sorry... I do know about Qi, but these demonstrations as some sort of magic trick does not go it justice. Give me a week and I can create the delecate balance and control to do the same thing. Or let me sharpen the spear and and see if the monk?!?!?? Would be willing to demonstrate then. I don't mean to be a skeptic... I just know better. god knows my story's are more than fantastic.

The old ways are nearly lost. Communist china has replaced true kung fu, with a communist sponsored martial arts dance style. Thank goodness the Dali lama escaped, so we could watch how the regime in china tried to replace him counter to tradition with their own construct. I relize most people don't know this story. But it's proof that true Chinese martial arts is extremely hard to come by... And barley survives.

This flaw is actually what made the man Bruce Lee.

Edited by Seeker79, 19 August 2012 - 03:01 AM.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#21    jsowersby

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 03:12 AM

View PostSeeker79, on 19 August 2012 - 02:59 AM, said:

I'm sorry... I do know about Qi, but these demonstrations as some sort of magic trick does not go it justice. Give me a week and I can create the delecate balance and control to do the same thing. Or let me sharpen the spear and and see if the monk?!?!?? Would be willing to demonstrate then. I don't mean to be a skeptic... I just know better. god knows my story's are more than fantastic.

The old ways are nearly lost. Communist china has replaced true kung fu, with a communist sponsored martial arts dance style. Thank goodness the Dali lama escaped, so we could watch how the regime in china tried to replace him counter to tradition with their own construct. I relize most people don't know this story. But it's proof that true Chinese martial arts is extremely hard to come by... And barley survives.

This flaw is actually what made the man Bruce Lee.

Shaolin is alive and well thankfully. They were almost lost a few times.  I think it can be tricked but I do not think that is what Shaolin gung fu is about. I also don't think they care if Western science can explain it or not. I think when the laws of physics are legitimately bent it demonstrates that there is something else going on. When I was working as a cook for a number of years I developed "cooks hands" and had plenty of times where I should have been burned but was not. A coworker watched as I took a pan out of a 300 degree oven with my hands and didn't get burned. It hurt some but not like being burned as it should have felt. It was not intentional and in the middle of dinner rush, I did it without thinking, maybe that was the trick.


#22    White Crane Feather

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 03:23 AM

View Postjsowersby, on 19 August 2012 - 03:12 AM, said:



Shaolin is alive and well thankfully. They were almost lost a few times.  I think it can be tricked but I do not think that is what Shaolin gung fu is about. I also don't think they care if Western science can explain it or not. I think when the laws of physics are legitimately bent it demonstrates that there is something else going on. When I was working as a cook for a number of years I developed "cooks hands" and had plenty of times where I should have been burned but was not. A coworker watched as I took a pan out of a 300 degree oven with my hands and didn't get burned. It hurt some but not like being burned as it should have felt. It was not intentional and in the middle of dinner rush, I did it without thinking, maybe that was the trick.
It is alive.... But I gurantee it's not the "monks" on television. One only needs to look at china and their conduct with Olympic athletes to see what the level of control is.

Edited by Seeker79, 19 August 2012 - 03:24 AM.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#23    Rlyeh

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 04:55 AM

View Postjsowersby, on 19 August 2012 - 02:29 AM, said:

Your dig at educational level is childish. What I'm saying is simple logic. If back pain is treated with pain medications, muscle relaxers, anti-inflammatories it will persist. These medications do nothing to cure the condition which may be treatable many ways without addictive narcotic pain medication.
What you're saying is uneducated, ignorance, you want some magical cure and then blaming drugs for not giving it to you. Don't be so asinine.


#24    Rlyeh

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 04:57 AM

View PostSeeker79, on 19 August 2012 - 12:22 AM, said:

What conspiracy? There are profit centers and people with lots of money and lawyers to protect those profit centers. The pharmaceuticals made profits off of everyone addicted to or dead from legally made narcotics..... You don't think they know that?   It's cut and dry... Just your style.
What conspiracy? What do you think I just addressed?
There exists rules for drugs, you're making it sound like people just put whatever they want on the market without testing.


#25    SolarPlexus

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 08:34 AM

View PostRlyeh, on 19 August 2012 - 04:55 AM, said:

What you're saying is uneducated, ignorance, you want some magical cure and then blaming drugs for not giving it to you. Don't be so asinine.

Funny how everyone except you is uneducated and ignorant ...

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#26    None of the above

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 09:02 AM

View Postjsowersby, on 19 August 2012 - 02:33 AM, said:

Explain bending the spear with his throat. The scientist who was there could not explain it. She explained it well, that qi cannot be quantified in known scientific terms. Explain the thermal camera showing heat emanating from Zhou's hands.

Skin is suprisingly strong and the 'spear' was a specially chosen prop. You could push a broom handle through a watermellon, so a blunt spear is no problem.
This type of 'Wushu' spear is a very special display prop, not an actual weapon. Also he moved into the blow on his back etc. It's a combination of training, discipline, and visual effects. It looks good but it's just a trick based in part on disciplined martial arts training.



As for the heat 'from' the hands demonstration?
It looked to me like a chemical reaction from the props in his hand. Without scientific or at the very least carefully controlled and verified independant testing it's neither here nor there really. To me it looked no more impressive than a farrier handling hot metal.

I have to say though that in terms of Wushu I like the Jian (long sword ) form best. I find this sort of thing more impressive than breaking blocks or bending sticks with ones throat:



Edited by Atlantia, 19 August 2012 - 09:21 AM.


#27    None of the above

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 09:04 AM

but to take it a step further, these Wushu weapons are 'stage props' not actual weapons. Check out this girl with Real live Katanas. If she slips or misjudges one of those moves near her head, she could cut her own throat! I find this much more impressive, because there are no tricks or pretend weapons.




#28    None of the above

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 10:17 AM

View PostSeeker79, on 18 August 2012 - 02:13 PM, said:

I can gurantee you there was no intentional deception. Mabey it wasn't qi that protected him, but his movement into the bat is a response born of training. He believes it to be qi. It's just a label. He indeed is using focused energy at his abdomin to protect himself in several ways. People are just unable to get over the label. What one person calls squeezing your abs and timing an intercept with a blow, another calls qi flow. in addition, the very practice of receiving blows like that builds up calcium in the bones. A life long practitioner will have much denser bones than the average person, because they have spent a lifetime building their qi.

Greater Bone density, timeing to intercept blows, and mental control of pain. Indeed an "iron shirt".

Healing qi gong is similar. It's basically a form of deep tissue massage. Hurts like hell, but squeezing blood flow into injured areas, and also squeezing toxins out through pressure is proven to facilitate healing. Then the pain form the massage releases endorphins so you feel better. And I must admit when sifu asks the next day if the problem is better, if you don't feel like another ordeal, you will not complain. Yes Sifu, all better, Nop see it works just fine thank you sir.... No need for another treatment :) :) :) :)

Hi Seeker.

I'm not saying that these aren't highly trained disciplined people. But the bat routine and the spear for that matter are just gags (stunts).
Watch the guy land the blow, he pulls it and the target moves into it to cover that and eccentuate his 'being repelled'.
It's just not credible to use a non-independant 'trained' assistant to hit him.
You seem to have an understanding of these techniques, you can see the difference between a blow that lands full force and one that is pulled.
Do you think the result would have been the same with you swinging the bat?
I'd bet good money that with me swinging it I'd have caused him serious injury.

I agree that long term specialised training produces interesting physical effects and of course in any martial art timing and control are of paramount importance.

As for the healing 'chi', I think that's an interesting area. The idea of channeling energy is very interesting. I've personally known (many years ago in a previous life of working in nightclubs ;)) a chap trained in martial arts to the point of 'master' (at the time featured in a ple of magasines, quite famous in those circles, so I'll keep his name quiet lol) anyway on a couple of occasions when things really went 'tits up' he seemed to make people fall over by touching them with no ill effects to them afterwards. Very impressive. On one occasion a bloke was discussing an altercation with four doormen, two in front one either side. Out of nowhere he swung and dropped one of the two in front of him with a cracking right hook to the eye (that was the doorman stood next to the guy who was the martial arts expert) the two either side grabbed the bloke and the 'master' flat palmed him on the chest at very close range and knocked all three over in a heap.
Most of the door team had a background in martail arts of one sort or another, but they ALL walked on eggshells around this guy and he was a little slightly built guy of about 5'9". None of the big 6'3" gorillas would have EVER crossed him. He never threw a punch, he never lost his temper, he never raised his voice, he was just calm and quietly scary! lol, if he was ever involved in sorting out any trouble, as soon as he touched people they always 'came quietly'.

I'd like to see scientific tests done on Chi healing. Like the guy I saw on a documentary on Java seeming to produce electricity from his hands and lighting a ball of newspaper.
Unless it's properly verified it's nothing, but if it was scientifically verified it would be worth serious research and investigation.

Edited by Atlantia, 19 August 2012 - 10:32 AM.


#29    White Crane Feather

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 11:02 AM

View PostAtlantia, on 19 August 2012 - 10:17 AM, said:



Hi Seeker.

I'm not saying that these aren't highly trained disciplined people. But the bat routine and the spear for that matter are just gags (stunts).
Watch the guy land the blow, he pulls it and the target moves into it to cover that and eccentuate his 'being repelled'.
It's just not credible to use a non-independant 'trained' assistant to hit him.
You seem to have an understanding of these techniques, you can see the difference between a blow that lands full force and one that is pulled.
Do you think the result would have been the same with you swinging the bat?
I'd bet good money that with me swinging it I'd have caused him serious injury.

I agree that long term specialised training produces interesting physical effects and of course in any martial art timing and control are of paramount importance.

As for the healing 'chi', I think that's an interesting area. The idea of channeling energy is very interesting. I've personally known (many years ago in a previous life of working in nightclubs ;)) a chap trained in martial arts to the point of 'master' (at the time featured in a ple of magasines, quite famous in those circles, so I'll keep his name quiet lol) anyway on a couple of occasions when things really went 'tits up' he seemed to make people fall over by touching them with no ill effects to them afterwards. Very impressive. On one occasion a bloke was discussing an altercation with four doormen, two in front one either side. Out of nowhere he swung and dropped one of the two in front of him with a cracking right hook to the eye (that was the doorman stood next to the guy who was the martial arts expert) the two either side grabbed the bloke and the 'master' flat palmed him on the chest at very close range and knocked all three over in a heap.
Most of the door team had a background in martail arts of one sort or another, but they ALL walked on eggshells around this guy and he was a little slightly built guy of about 5'9". None of the big 6'3" gorillas would have EVER crossed him. He never threw a punch, he never lost his temper, he never raised his voice, he was just calm and quietly scary! lol, if he was ever involved in sorting out any trouble, as soon as he touched people they always 'came quietly'.

I'd like to see scientific tests done on Chi healing. Like the guy I saw on a documentary on Java seeming to produce electricity from his hands and lighting a ball of newspaper.
Unless it's properly verified it's nothing, but if it was scientifically verified it would be worth serious research and investigation.
Like a mentioned the "magic" of it is just a label. There is no doubt when you punch Somone you are "channeling energy" into them. Energy from your shoulder, core, hips, legs, even the feet if you know proper technique. Lots and lots of mechanical energy there. ;)

People just like to take something basic and make it more than it is to create mystique. This is an old tradition and a form of physiological martial arts. People usially only fight if they know they can win. If there is aura of mystery surrounding a person, then no one...especially a long time ago would attack them.

It sounds like your friend knew the buhdda palm technique. you can learn how to change the energy of a strike by how you make contact. Basically in wider or tighter wave patterns. A skilled martial artist  can hit just right and the tighter wave pattern will be focused on your internal organs. this is the technique alluded to in "blood sport" where dukes ryu breaks the bottom brick.

As to the touch them fall over stuff..... This is a form of hypnosis... Much like when people fall over from being waked on the head at church.

Don't get me wrong the coiled energy of Qi is something I know to exist, but it's not energy in the sense of flowing electricity. It's more like an emotion (energy in motion)..,. Or deep awareness. Something you bring to mind then to body through normal biomechanical means. It's a meditation that brings your entire body together to focus awareness. It's not magic it's mind.

As to dim ,  death point striking, and poisoning Qi. This is all true aswell, but it was just a use of physiology. A closed head injury can be cause by a high speed sharp attack to the head.  A sharks tooth fist ( if the knuckle is calcified) can accomplish this. An untreated closed head injury will kill you in several days.  Specific techniques that cause internal injuries were death to people in ancient times. Now you just go to the hospital and they fix you up, so there really is no point in calcifying your knuckle to perform things like dim mak. Still works great as an eye attack though.

Edited by Seeker79, 19 August 2012 - 11:18 AM.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#30    White Crane Feather

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 11:25 AM

View PostRlyeh, on 19 August 2012 - 04:57 AM, said:

What conspiracy? What do you think I just addressed?
There exists rules for drugs, you're making it sound like people just put whatever they want on the market without testing.
Hence recalls and lawsuits.  While I appreciate your faith in what is supposed to happen, pharmaceuticals would not be a LEADING cause of death if things were working properly and rules were being followed now would it?

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-




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