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Bishop John Shelby Spong: his views


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#1    jugoso

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 06:25 PM

http://www.upworthy....n-atheist?c=cd1

It´s only a three minute video but I am in agreement with almost everything he says. Independent thinking is very refreshing IMO.

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#2    Valdemar the Great

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 07:34 PM

Oh yes, I find him very refreshing as well. Of course, there are some on the more conservative side who see him as a heretic,but that's all the more of a recommendation in my book.

Life is a hideous business, and from the background behind what we know of it peer daemoniacal hints of truth which make it sometimes a thousandfold more hideous.

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#3    Ben Masada

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 08:12 PM

View Postjugoso, on 11 June 2013 - 06:25 PM, said:

http://www.upworthy....n-atheist?c=cd1

It´s only a three minute video but I am in agreement with almost everything he says. Independent thinking is very refreshing IMO.

I agree with the link. I agree with every word. Thank you.

Edited by Ben Masada, 11 June 2013 - 08:12 PM.


#4    ouija ouija

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 08:14 PM

What a lovely man.
But who was the idiot with white hair? why was he pulling that silly face?

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#5    Paranoid Android

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 08:10 AM

Bishop Spong is among that liberal group of Christianity that I disagree with almost everything he says.  I agreed with his first sentence - "hell does not exist" - and then disagreed with virtually everything else.  I don't think the church is in the reward/punishment business, though I believe some churches certainly do plug that idea.  I don't agree with his view that churches want to keep us babies, though some churches certainly plug that view.

His final comments on God is not a Christian/Jew/Muslim/Hindu/Buddhist is all entirely true, but the implication is that all religions are basically the same (pluralism).  On this, I would point you to the following, which pretty much sums up my view on pluralism.  It's a small segment of a book I own called "A Spectator's Guide to World Religions", and I'd recommend it to absolutely everyone.  Interestingly, despite being Christian, the author speaks quite positively and approvingly of every belief he looks at (Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam), his comments on pluralism are the only negative points he has to say about a belief system.

Quote

The great assumption of pluralism

In one of his books called The Rainbow of Faiths Professor Hick brilliantly explains his point of view by asking readers—as I'll ask you now—to look closely at a famous sketch first used by psychologists in early experiments on optical illusions:

Posted Image

As you can see, the sketch shows an ambiguous figure drawn to look like a duck (facing left) and a rabbit (facing right). Give yourself a moment to see both.

Now imagine conducting the following experiment. If you showed this picture to people who knew ducks but had never seen rabbits, what would they see? Obviously, a duck. If you showed it to a group that had seen rabbits but not ducks, they of course would see a rabbit.

Which group is correct, asks John Hicks: the duck group or the rabbit group? Both are correct, he says. Both groups are entirely justified in describing this image variously as a duck or a rabbit. The ‘contradiction’ between the opinions is a matter of perception rather than substance.

So far, so good.

John Hick then compares religious truth with this optical illusion. He says that the great religions of the world contain merely perceptions of Reality rather than actual descriptions of Reality....

...Without realising it, John Hick's analogy succeeds in exposing an embarassing, and rarely admitted, assumption of the pluralist point of view....

Further reading - see Source


Posted Image

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#6    redhen

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 08:55 AM

View PostParanoid Android, on 12 June 2013 - 08:10 AM, said:

  On this, I would point you to the following, which pretty much sums up my view on pluralism.  It's a small segment of a book I own called "A Spectator's Guide to World Religions", and I'd recommend it to absolutely everyone.

Good article;  "Pluralism ends up claiming to have discovered a greater truth that none of the religions has observed before, and then it suggests that the ‘lesser truths’ individual religions thought they could see are in fact cultural illusions—just ducks and rabits. (sic)"

Religious relativism, cultural relativism, gender as just a social construct; I have my views as to where all these concepts came from, but I won't belabour the point.


#7    jugoso

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 03:00 PM

View PostParanoid Android, on 12 June 2013 - 08:10 AM, said:

Bishop Spong is among that liberal group of Christianity that I disagree with almost everything he says. I agreed with his first sentence - "hell does not exist" - and then disagreed with virtually everything else. I don't think the church is in the reward/punishment business, though I believe some churches certainly do plug that idea. I don't agree with his view that churches want to keep us babies, though some churches certainly plug that view.

His final comments on God is not a Christian/Jew/Muslim/Hindu/Buddhist is all entirely true, but the implication is that all religions are basically the same (pluralism).  On this, I would point you to the following, which pretty much sums up my view on pluralism.  It's a small segment of a book I own called "A Spectator's Guide to World Religions", and I'd recommend it to absolutely everyone.  Interestingly, despite being Christian, the author speaks quite positively and approvingly of every belief he looks at (Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam), his comments on pluralism are the only negative points he has to say about a belief system.

Thanks for the link and I understand where you are coming from. Although it appears you agree fully or partially with many of his views. I see it more like this.
  No matter how illusory or erroneous one´s theology, one´s religion may be wholly genuine and ever-lasting true. It really comes down to the values one  both has and lives.

Edited by jugoso, 12 June 2013 - 03:02 PM.

"Freedom is free of the need to feel free.
Free your mind and you ass will follow.
The kingdom of heaven is within"
G.Clinton

#8    ouija ouija

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 07:49 PM

View PostParanoid Android, on 12 June 2013 - 08:10 AM, said:

His final comments on God is not a Christian/Jew/Muslim/Hindu/Buddhist is all entirely true, but the implication is that all religions are basically the same (pluralism).  
On this, I would point you to the following, which pretty much sums up my view on pluralism.  It's a small segment of a book I own called "A Spectator's Guide to World Religions", and I'd recommend it to absolutely everyone.  

Regarding the first sentence above, that was not how I interpreted what he was saying. I understood him to say there is one god, and then there are religions that are man-made and in a sense, totally seperate from that god.

Regarding your second sentence: what if there was a group of people who had only seen rabbits before, but on viewing the drawing thought they were seeing some sort of mythical creature that they had never seen in the flesh before i.e. a duck?

Life is all too much ............................................. and not enough.

It is only when you form your question precisely and accurately that you receive the true answer.

#9    GreenmansGod

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 12:27 AM

One of my Pagan buds posted it on FB, the consensus  was he is a Pagan in the wrong clothes.

"The moment you declare a set of ideas to be immune from criticism, satire, derision, or contempt, freedom of thought becomes impossible." Salman Rushdie

#10    Ben Masada

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 07:47 PM

View PostColonel Rhuairidh, on 11 June 2013 - 07:34 PM, said:

Oh yes, I find him very refreshing as well. Of course, there are some on the more conservative side who see him as a heretic,but that's all the more of a recommendation in my book.

What I don't understand about Bishop Spong is how he came to the understanding that Paul was a homosexual man. That's not from the video but from another article of his. That Paul's thorn in the flesh was his struggle to deal with repressed homosexual feelings. Any idea?


#11    sutemi

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 09:26 AM

Nice to hear the good bishop but of course he is a HERETIC! Here’s another heretic from the UK, talking about the issues surrounding an 'Occupy camp‘ out side of ST Pauls Cathedral in London (which has become basically a tourist site and a place for the very rich to get married and baptise their children) about what the church has let happen to itself.  
  take care


#12    libstaK

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 10:38 AM

View Postjugoso, on 11 June 2013 - 06:25 PM, said:

http://www.upworthy....n-atheist?c=cd1

It´s only a three minute video but I am in agreement with almost everything he says. Independent thinking is very refreshing IMO.
I agree with him entirely, our religions are not out of place, they are an opportunity for the various traditions and peoples of the world to discover the possibility of God and by extension or alternatively the true wisdom teachings of the ages in their lives.

"I warn you, whoever you are, oh you who wish to probe the arcanes of nature, if you do not find within yourself that which you seek, neither shall you find it outside.
If you ignore the excellencies of your own house, how do you intend to find other excellencies?
In you is hidden the treasure of treasures, Oh man, know thyself and you shall know the Universe and the Gods."

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#13    Bluefinger

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 05:44 PM

View Postjugoso, on 11 June 2013 - 06:25 PM, said:

http://www.upworthy....n-atheist?c=cd1

Itīs only a three minute video but I am in agreement with almost everything he says. Independent thinking is very refreshing IMO.

I had a few of his books.  He denies the divinity of Jesus in one of his books.  Basically, he turns the Jewish Messiah into a New Age activist.  

But as a critical reader, I feel like he is injecting his worldview into Jesus' writings so that they say what he wants them to say rather than what the author intended within the historical context of the reading.  I have a hard time reading a lecture that ignores proper exegesis.

It is not enough to have a good mind.  The main thing is to use it well.     - Descartes

#14    Bluefinger

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 05:47 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 20 June 2013 - 07:47 PM, said:



What I don't understand about Bishop Spong is how he came to the understanding that Paul was a homosexual man. That's not from the video but from another article of his. That Paul's thorn in the flesh was his struggle to deal with repressed homosexual feelings. Any idea?

I think that is a projection of Spong's agenda.  Spong is determined to open Christianity to accepting homosexuality as something that isn't unholy.  I don't agree with him though.

Holiness and righteousness are two different things.

Edited by Bluefinger, 22 June 2013 - 05:47 PM.

It is not enough to have a good mind.  The main thing is to use it well.     - Descartes

#15    markprice

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 06:48 PM

View Postsutemi, on 22 June 2013 - 09:26 AM, said:

Nice to hear the good bishop but of course he is a HERETIC! Here’s another heretic from the UK, talking about the issues surrounding an 'Occupy camp‘ out side of ST Pauls Cathedral in London (which has become basically a tourist site and a place for the very rich to get married and baptise their children) about what the church has let happen to itself.  
  take care

I like that one much better than the OP which is denial based on opinion.

"How can someone prove that a rainbow exists to a blind man?"




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