The "Hilltop Youth"

[Yamato]

It's not often discussed what the origins are for some of these illegal "settlements" that are the source of so much animosity towards Israel in the world. Perhaps surprisingly, some of them were started out as a hodgepodge of shelters built on prime Palestinian hilltop real estate by groups of radical Zionist criminals who scoff not only at international law, but even at the Israeli government's, and brazenly take both laws into their own hands to expand their illegal dwellings into what the Israeli government will over the course of bureaucratic time recognize as legitimate. This particular group of hyper-nationalists that the settlers are composed of are never mentioned in the US media, and I've never heard them mentioned on this board before either so this might prove to be a welcome change of subject.

I'm going to remind myself from now on that excellent debate and common courtesy aren't mutually exclusive. Let's all try to be mindful of the free and thankless work that the administrator and moderators have to spend their free time doing here on our behalf, so we even have this website to debate and discuss in the first place.

From the article below:

Israel's Hilltop Youth movement has been active for years, establishing Jewish settlement outposts on barren West Bank hills without bothering to get permission from the Israeli government. The Hilltop Youth occasionally received attention, usually when they damaged Palestinian property in the West Bank. But now they are in the headlines after a group of them raided an Israeli military base.

Israel has charged five settlers as part of a promised clampdown on extremist Jewish groups. The Hilltop Youth seek to settle what they claim is all of the land of Israel, though it includes territory in the occupied West Bank, which the Palestinians want for their future state.

One such outpost, Ramat Migron, is on a hill with a view through the olive trees to the mountains of the West Bank. It's cold and spartan, with only a few makeshift dwellings. It doesn't really seem like much, but the Hilltop Youth hope this tiny camp will eventually expand into a recognized settlement.

To read more:

http://www.npr.org/2012/01/09/144918870/israel-cracks-down-on-radical-hilltop-youth

[+ouija ouija]

That's a very interesting article, but if I'm honest I would have to say that I have given up trying to understand the Israel/Palestine situation.

[pallidin]

That's a very interesting article, but if I'm honest I would have to say that I have given up trying to understand the Israel/Palestine situation.

No worries, it's easy. THEY HATE EACH OTHER.

[AsteroidX]

Yeah. Hard to figure that one out for sure.

[Hasina]

Palestine and Israel just need to rap battle their differences out. Yes, I was making a point with that joke, I hate that foreign countries are involved in this territorial spat.

[pallidin]

They each want expansion, as their population grows. That's one problem.

The other problem is that their religious idealogy is not compatable for side-by-side-peace, and especially not co-existing.

On top of all that, they want the same land!

.

Kind-of seriously messed-up, if you ask me.

[AsteroidX]

Break dance battle ala 80's hassina. I would not want to listen to Israel/Palestinian rap. That would drive me crazed fer sure.

[+and-then]

Interesting article and thanks for posting. These groups began after the sellout that was Gaza. Most of the settlers from Gaza are still in mobile home slums. It's one thing to uproot people and promise them a new start -quite another to do so and then just forget them. I understand the price tag sentiment. They are just protesting, after all. But the primary problem isn't much changed nor will it be. Two groups of people deadly earnest about living (alone) on the same piece of land.

[pallidin]

Two groups of people deadly earnest about living (alone) on the same piece of land.

Yep, that's about it. Other than the push for expansionism of radical Islam, of course.

[Yamato]

Yep, that's about it. Other than the push for expansionism of radical Islam, of course.

So scary

[+and-then]

So scary

Yup...nothing to see here, move along...whatever...

[Frank Merton]

I have to say I tend to be pro-Israel. They built a working society and made the desert bloom and have been there now a couple generations. The Palestinians have done nothing except explode bombs, in spite of masses of aid.

I know the history, but based on history the Native Americans should kick out the Europeans -- indeed, the Celts should kick out the English and the French.

[Yamato]

I have to say I tend to be pro-Israel. They built a working society and made the desert bloom and have been there now a couple generations. The Palestinians have done nothing except explode bombs, in spite of masses of aid.

I know the history, but based on history the Native Americans should kick out the Europeans -- indeed, the Celts should kick out the English and the French.

Your first statement aside, applying "the history" and "kicking out" to Palestinians is the pot calling the kettle. If the Zionist movement wasn't based on history, Israel wouldn't exist in the first place. They used religious history as the excuse to establish statehood in Palestine and in the process, deliberately administered a humanitarian disaster for people who weren't there because of the "history" of the place, they were there because they lived there. The Native Americans should kick out the "Europeans", but nearly the entire world that wants Palestine and Israel living side by side as equal partners in statehood aren't asking anyone to kick anyone out from anywhere. What we're asking for, is to stop doing it.

[+and-then]

Your first statement aside, applying "the history" and "kicking out" to Palestinians is the pot calling the kettle. If the Zionist movement wasn't based on history, Israel wouldn't exist in the first place. They used religious history as the excuse to establish statehood in Palestine and in the process, deliberately administered a humanitarian disaster for people who weren't there because of the "history" of the place, they were there because they lived there. The Native Americans should kick out the "Europeans", but nearly the entire world that wants Palestine and Israel living side by side as equal partners in statehood aren't asking anyone to kick anyone out from anywhere. What we're asking for, is to stop doing it.

What you refuse to acknowledge is that for your plan to be realized, about 6 million Israelis would have to pull up stakes and move (to where?) and leave behind all the work and investment of the past 6 decades. It's irrational to believe such a scenario will ever be possible Yam. Even if they were not the biggest and best military in the region AND a nuclear power. So their enemies keep at it, hoping that they can demoralize the will of the people until they will leave voluntarily or cede enough territory that they can be effectively defeated in a war. It's a battle of hatred and of wills. it's funny to me how people here (and I don't include you in this statement) who rebel at the very idea of God or faith in any form will quite faithfully keep up the hope for Israel's demise. They don't even see the irony in their position.

[Yamato]

What you refuse to acknowledge is that for your plan to be realized, about 6 million Israelis would have to pull up stakes and move (to where?) and leave behind all the work and investment of the past 6 decades. It's irrational to believe such a scenario will ever be possible Yam. Even if they were not the biggest and best military in the region AND a nuclear power. So their enemies keep at it, hoping that they can demoralize the will of the people until they will leave voluntarily or cede enough territory that they can be effectively defeated in a war. It's a battle of hatred and of wills. it's funny to me how people here (and I don't include you in this statement) who rebel at the very idea of God or faith in any form will quite faithfully keep up the hope for Israel's demise. They don't even see the irony in their position.

No, that's misunderstanding my post. That's doing more of the same when I'm clearly trying to stop it. Don't confuse Israel with Zionist settlements, for "God's" sake.

If Mississippi invaded Georgia through Alabama, Georgia has no right to annex parts of Alabama much less settle on her land, much less uproot her people and never allow them to return. The Alabamians would be returned, every man, woman and child, to every home, and every plot of land, bar none. That is justice and that's the same justice Palestinians deserve. When a Palestinian is forced out of her home with brutal force of the Israeli government, being answered with brute force in return is justice. We are so many years and so many thefts and slaughters past the point of legitimacy in an armed Palestinian revolt in this conflict it's beyond self-evidence at this point; it's primal.

If I recognize Israel, and I do, then I recognize Palestine by the exact same measure. Either get out of Palestine, Israel, or the people of the world who genuinely care about civil liberties won't get off of you. Security for both sides can easily be reached with international military forces. Keeping US soldiers in Iraq for 100 years a la John McCain was a pipe dream the American people would have none of. Keeping international forces in two independent states, Israel and Palestine, will likely be necessary. You should see there is no reason to support what you do support being done to the Palestinians. All your problems will be solved by international security forces. If Israel wanted peace and security as bad as it claims it does, it would be leading the initiative to execute such a plan. But it wants land, thus peace and security can wait for its clear path to the annihilation and annexation of Palestine. Anyone honest enough to look at a map can see what's going on over there. Hiding it in sugary rhetoric is no longer possible.

[+and-then]

No, that's misunderstanding my post. That's doing more of the same when I'm clearly trying to stop it. Don't confuse Israel with Zionist settlements, for "God's" sake.

If Mississippi invaded Georgia through Alabama, Georgia has no right to annex parts of Alabama much less settle on her land, much less uproot her people and never allow them to return. The Alabamians would be returned, every man, woman and child, to every home, and every plot of land, bar none. That is justice and that's the same justice Palestinians deserve. When a Palestinian is forced out of her home with brutal force of the Israeli government, being answered with brute force in return is justice. We are so many years and so many thefts and slaughters past the point of legitimacy in an armed Palestinian revolt in this conflict it's beyond self-evidence at this point; it's primal.

If I recognize Israel, and I do, then I recognize Palestine by the exact same measure. Either get out of Palestine, Israel, or the people of the world who genuinely care about civil liberties won't get off of you. Security for both sides can easily be reached with international military forces. Keeping US soldiers in Iraq for 100 years a la John McCain was a pipe dream the American people would have none of. Keeping international forces in two independent states, Israel and Palestine, will likely be necessary. You should see there is no reason to support what you do support being done to the Palestinians. All your problems will be solved by international security forces. If Israel wanted peace and security as bad as it claims it does, it would be leading the initiative to execute such a plan. But it wants land, thus peace and security can wait for its clear path to the annihilation and annexation of Palestine. Anyone honest enough to look at a map can see what's going on over there. Hiding it in sugary rhetoric is no longer possible.

So we put US troops on the ground between two peoples who still want to kill each other. Israel expects us to occasionally look the other way on some issue and if we do, even in the least way -or even if we don't for that matter - the Palestinians cry foul and BOTH sides kill our troops. I honestly believe that the Israelis would accept a smaller piece of land if they could actually live in peace. They have been given no reasons to expect that is a possibility though. And if they once again try -as I think will happen beginning as soon as March, with this European push for peace, then we will have a chance to finally see if I am correct in my assumption or if you are. The Europeans are not pro Israel and will drive a bargain that is at least somewhat equitable toward Palestinian interests, if not overly so. The recent Israeli election shows the country to be split with half on the left more amenable to peace. Interestingly, Haniyah has already said that left or right does not matter and the Palestinains have no partner for peace. But I think Europe will push a plan and Abbas, Hamas and Hizbullah, will all get on board. Israel will cede some of the land and settlements and then the world can judge for itself who is really trying to make peace and who is trying to take it all... IF I am correct then the Israelis will lash out massively against the next round of Palestinian violence that occurs after Europe forces them to give more of their land away. And yes I believe what the Bible says about God's land and what He chose to do with it. Leaving Him out of the calculation is folly - but one has to believe in Him before that occurs in the picture I guess.

[Yamato]

So we put US troops on the ground between two peoples who still want to kill each other. Israel expects us to occasionally look the other way on some issue and if we do, even in the least way -or even if we don't for that matter - the Palestinians cry foul and BOTH sides kill our troops. I honestly believe that the Israelis would accept a smaller piece of land if they could actually live in peace. They have been given no reasons to expect that is a possibility though. And if they once again try -as I think will happen beginning as soon as March, with this European push for peace, then we will have a chance to finally see if I am correct in my assumption or if you are. The Europeans are not pro Israel and will drive a bargain that is at least somewhat equitable toward Palestinian interests, if not overly so. The recent Israeli election shows the country to be split with half on the left more amenable to peace. Interestingly, Haniyah has already said that left or right does not matter and the Palestinains have no partner for peace. But I think Europe will push a plan and Abbas, Hamas and Hizbullah, will all get on board. Israel will cede some of the land and settlements and then the world can judge for itself who is really trying to make peace and who is trying to take it all... IF I am correct then the Israelis will lash out massively against the next round of Palestinian violence that occurs after Europe forces them to give more of their land away. And yes I believe what the Bible says about God's land and what He chose to do with it. Leaving Him out of the calculation is folly - but one has to believe in Him before that occurs in the picture I guess.

No, international troops, thus they won't be under US command so our special interests are irrelevant.

Contrary to your endless claims, most Israelis and Palestinians have consistently polled that they want a two-state solution, so I'm not representing anything "anti-Israel" here by promoting such a peaceful end. God knows I've been accused of it enough, though. Somehow when I'm not running over peoples' civil liberties and not kowtowing to violent minorities of criminal extremists, I'm not being fair. Well, bugger that sod.

The Hilltop Youth's "settlements" should be destroyed by Palestinian authorities, not the Israeli government. Actually respecting the sovereignty of both sides manifests itself in a million different ways, this is just one other.

Trying to internationally legitimize this kind of behavior is ludicrous. These "settlers" are the first obstacle to peace that have to go.

Edited January 27, 2013 by Yamato

[Frank Merton]

A two-state or even a three-state (if Gaza can't get on with the rest of Palestine) "solution" would be fine. I think some special internationalization of Jerusalem would have to also be part of that.

[+and-then]

No, international troops, thus they won't be under US command so our special interests are irrelevant.

Contrary to your endless claims, most Israelis and Palestinians have consistently polled that they want a two-state solution, so I'm not representing anything "anti-Israel" here by promoting such a peaceful end. God knows I've been accused of it enough, though. Somehow when I'm not running over peoples' civil liberties and not kowtowing to violent minorities of criminal extremists, I'm not being fair. Well, bugger that sod.

The Hilltop Youth's "settlements" should be destroyed by Palestinian authorities, not the Israeli government. Actually respecting the sovereignty of both sides manifests itself in a million different ways, this is just one other.

Trying to internationally legitimize this kind of behavior is ludicrous. These "settlers" are the first obstacle to peace that have to go.

[media=]

[/media]

Yeah...they look like a real menace. Cheerful lot though

[Yamato]

Yeah...they look like a real menace. Cheerful lot though

This nonchalant reply just shows your lack of respect for a two-state solution and it only serves to sever any realistic chance of it happening. What's tragic about this situation on both sides is how people get uprooted from their homes, unable to return. The existence of the settlements regardless of their origins is what makes that happen, and surprisingly, even illegally under Israel's own law. It's just another example of a profound lack of recognition for the rule of law whether human law, international law, or now Israeli law. The radical Zionist agenda surpasses them all in order of importance.

[+and-then]

This nonchalant reply just shows your lack of respect for a two-state solution and it only serves to sever any realistic chance of it happening. What's tragic about this situation on both sides is how people get uprooted from their homes, unable to return. The existence of the settlements regardless of their origins is what makes that happen, and surprisingly, even illegally under Israel's own law. It's just another example of a profound lack of recognition for the rule of law whether human law, international law, or now Israeli law. The radical Zionist agenda surpasses them all in order of importance.

Kind of like all those Zionists who were uprooted at gunpoint from homes and businesses they built in Gaza, Yam? You know, those who for the most part are still living in trailer slums? Actually I believe 100% in the right of Jews to settle the land. I believe in the concept of Eretz Israel. But I also know that it isn't practical to happen anytime in the near future. They will have to try to make peace with an enemy sworn to extinguish them because the world says so. As I said, look to March and I think we'll see who is serious and who isn't. If the Palestinians gain land and sovereignty over their own affairs I bet it will be less than 1 year before some factions are killing Israelis again. And NO ONE will say a word when it happens.

[Yamato]

Kind of like all those Zionists who were uprooted at gunpoint from homes and businesses they built in Gaza, Yam? You know, those who for the most part are still living in trailer slums? Actually I believe 100% in the right of Jews to settle the land. I believe in the concept of Eretz Israel. But I also know that it isn't practical to happen anytime in the near future. They will have to try to make peace with an enemy sworn to extinguish them because the world says so. As I said, look to March and I think we'll see who is serious and who isn't. If the Palestinians gain land and sovereignty over their own affairs I bet it will be less than 1 year before some factions are killing Israelis again. And NO ONE will say a word when it happens.

Yes, and those people, and that should be enough for you to join me in opposing these settlements. The more "settlements" these squatters build, the more destruction and displacement will be necessary. The more "settlers" that will end up living in trailer slums. If you want to play Eretz Israel for the Zionists instead, there will never be a two-state solution. In fact I think you've exposed your true sentiments here that you have no interest in two states living side by side as equals.

No one will say a word? That'll be a first. Every word said in our media will be pro-Israel as it always is. You know that as well as I do.

[buckskin scout]

I have to say I tend to be pro-Israel. They built a working society and made the desert bloom and have been there now a couple generations. The Palestinians have done nothing except explode bombs, in spite of masses of aid.

Working society? Built on billions of dollars of US aid.

Made the desert bloom? That is the myth Israel tries to perpetuate. If you have an opportunity and find Jaffa, The Orange's Clockwork anywhere online please do. It is only an hour long in length but the truths it distills on the myths of the Jews making the desert blooms is enormous. Unfortunately, YT only has portions of the doc uploaded.

The Palestinians live under Israeli military law in the West Bank since 1967, and live under blockade siege in the Gaza Strip for decades now. Palestinians have no state and live under state of apartheid.

[+and-then]

And the second part of his statement? "The Palestinians have done nothing except explode bombs, in spite of masses of aid." ?

The Palestinians have been suckled on international welfare for 65 years. They have built nothing, improved nothing and DONE nothing except fight. Support that ideology if you want but don't wrap it in nobility, It's nauseating.

[Yamato]

The Palestinians have been suckled on international welfare for 65 years. They have built nothing, improved nothing and DONE nothing except fight. Support that ideology if you want but don't wrap it in nobility, It's nauseating.

And that's the problem with any welfare now, isn't it? I've proposed initiatives like Trade Not Aid because what Palestinians need is self-determination, not a hand-to-mouth existence that's being forced on them by Israeli tyranny. And you'd be on the same page with me in agreement with me on that, if what I'm replying to here is what really mattered.

How can they stop fighting when they're still fighting for their lives and livelihood? They're the best example of freedom fighters in the world today. Don't pretend they're fighting for anything less. There's nothing in the world more worth fighting for than that, there's nothing more noble than self-determination. When freedom dies, tyranny reigns.