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Is proof of alien life a risk to society ?


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#241    Frank Merton

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 10:11 AM

If they are out there there will be some that are millions or even billions of years ahead of us.  What marvels would such a society be able to do?  Do you think we would be able to miss it?


#242    Admiral Rhubarb

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 11:39 AM

View PostFrank Merton, on 03 April 2013 - 10:11 AM, said:

If they are out there there will be some that are millions or even billions of years ahead of us.  What marvels would such a society be able to do?  Do you think we would be able to miss it?
Very possibly we might, if they used a system of communications that we didn't know how to detect. Or they might even be be flying around in our vicinity all the time, but are undetectable because their technology is completely out of our league.

Life is a hideous business, and from the background behind what we know of it peer daemoniacal hints of truth which make it sometimes a thousandfold more hideous.

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#243    Frank Merton

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 12:14 PM

They just aren't there; the rest is rationalization.


#244    Admiral Rhubarb

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 01:43 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 03 April 2013 - 12:14 PM, said:

They just aren't there; the rest is rationalization.
i really don't understand how you can conclude that, i'm afraid I really don't. What makes you conclude that? Because we haven't heard from them? because they haven't said Howdy?

Life is a hideous business, and from the background behind what we know of it peer daemoniacal hints of truth which make it sometimes a thousandfold more hideous.

H. P. Lovecraft.


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#245    Frank Merton

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 01:50 PM

Because there is no trace of them.  Absence of evidence is not proof of absence, but in situations where one would expect to see abundant evidence, the fact that there is none creates strong evidence of absence.


#246    Admiral Rhubarb

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 02:24 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 03 April 2013 - 01:50 PM, said:

Because there is no trace of them.  Absence of evidence is not proof of absence, but in situations where one would expect to see abundant evidence, the fact that there is none creates strong evidence of absence.
What evidence would you expect to see?

Life is a hideous business, and from the background behind what we know of it peer daemoniacal hints of truth which make it sometimes a thousandfold more hideous.

H. P. Lovecraft.


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#247    Frank Merton

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 02:33 PM

Oh, solar systems being rearranged, dying stars being resusitated, Dyson spheres, interstellar traffic, and most of all anthropologists coming here.

I should qualify a few things.  Its a big universe and so since we know we are possible things like us probably exist elsewhere.  Maybe one in each Einsteinein sphere -- so we will never find them.

The fact that there is no sign of them in a galaxy billions of years old tells me our evolution is not a given -- it doesn't just happen.  Maybe life just happens on the few worlds where it can survive, but evolution of complex life, let alone sentient life and then technological intelligent sentient life that survives a few thousand years is probably excruciating unlikely.


#248    Frank Merton

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 06:30 AM

Let me make an observation on the problem of sentience -- the "qualia" problem argued about by neurologists.  It is really a profound mystery -- not just our consciousness but the nature of the way our brain interfaces with incoming sensory signals.  It creates its own world that is actually better at informing us what is going on "out there" than we could if we used direct incoming data.  It filters it, sometimes rearranges it, and presents it to us as experiences -- colors, sounds, odors, aches and pains, and all sorts of other subtle experiences we barely notice but that inform us.

The word is "experience."  We experience the world, we don't just respond reflexively as an insect might (who knows for sure).  I can say something is blue and anyone who has ever experienced blue knows what I mean, but there is no way to communicate it without our having had a shared experience of the color.

We can describe in considerable detail the pathways of the visual stimuli through our brain, but no one has any clue how those signals get turned into an experience of our mind.  

Obviously sentience is a tremendous advance, and it evolved somewhat before mammals but especially in mammals where it got linked up with emotions (especially pleasure reinforcement and pain/displeasure deterrence).  This permits much more subtle reactions to the environment than pre-evolved wired instincts and reflexes (although they have not been completely replaced).

Now how often in the universe is this sort of completely baffling phenomenon going to arise?  Since we have no idea how it arose or how it works, how can we be so glib on the likelihood of there being other sentient beings out there?


#249    Admiral Rhubarb

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 07:06 AM

View PostFrank Merton, on 03 April 2013 - 02:33 PM, said:

Oh, solar systems being rearranged, dying stars being resusitated, Dyson spheres, interstellar traffic, and most of all anthropologists coming here.

I should qualify a few things. Its a big universe and so since we know we are possible things like us probably exist elsewhere. Maybe one in each Einsteinein sphere -- so we will never find them.

The fact that there is no sign of them in a galaxy billions of years old tells me our evolution is not a given -- it doesn't just happen. Maybe life just happens on the few worlds where it can survive, but evolution of complex life, let alone sentient life and then technological intelligent sentient life that survives a few thousand years is probably excruciating unlikely.
how on earth (sic) would we be able to spot interstellar traffic? They'd probably use hyperspace or warp drive. Dyson spheres? Well, I'm sure I saw some of them in the DIY store last time I looked. They're a new generation of vacuum cleaners, apparently. :unsure2: And why would anyone go to the trouble of resuscitating dying stars? Just to show off? They'd probably just move on somewhere else; I'm sure there'd be loads of suitable stars to choose from.
And besides, maybe they do; there's a whole lot of astronomonical phenomena that we don't really know for sure what they are, isn't there.
And Anthropologists coming here? Once again, that seems to be assuming that we're so remarkably fascinating that they'd flock from all corner of the galaxy to see us.
And maybe they do, but they're more sophisticated than the explorers of the 19th & 20th on Earth, and know that they way to study something in a properly scientific way is not to stick their nose in and make their presence known, but to unobtrusively observe (perhaps from time to time taking a more hands-on approach with one or two selected candidates for experiment). :unsure2:

Life is a hideous business, and from the background behind what we know of it peer daemoniacal hints of truth which make it sometimes a thousandfold more hideous.

H. P. Lovecraft.


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#250    psyche101

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 07:35 AM

View PostAndromedan Starseed 333, on 16 March 2013 - 06:38 PM, said:

also if your the NWO,skull and bones society,the Illuminati,reptilians,evil entities and beings,and evil force and like i said corrupt governments all over the world.but people don't be afraid these so called leaders and government officials don't care for us and don't have our best interest at heart either.they will say anything to win us over even if they don't mean it and do it.they want us to be afraid and fear and hate each other and etc.these government officials are just pretenders and puppets to the people and evil dark forces with the real power behind the scenes!!!


Lets use myself as an example. I am not afraid of Government, and they have no influence over me, your statement appears to be irrelevant. The current Australian Government has not "won me over" since they took power on any issue. They are a bit of a joke really, and the entire UN cannot stop that band of pirates, the Sea Shepherd society, France bombed the atolls despite test bans, and angered the entire world, as have Korea and Vietnam in recent times. Governments hate each other, and oust each other at a moments notice, your claim makes absolutely no sense in the real world. It sounds like the paranoid driven woo woo site credo if anything.



Seriously, this is the lot who are smoking cigars behind closed doors and planning to take advantage of the average citizen?????




I am afraid I just do not believe it.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo 'If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants.' - Sir Isaac Newton. "Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit." Ed Stewart. Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs. Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Sir Wearer of Hats.


#251    Frank Merton

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 07:37 AM

All you do is rationalize the absence of any hint they are out there.  That is not persuasive.

I never heard of an anthropologist not making his or her presence known.


#252    psyche101

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 07:41 AM

View PostColonel Rhuairidh, on 04 April 2013 - 07:06 AM, said:

how on earth (sic) would we be able to spot interstellar traffic? They'd probably use hyperspace or warp drive.

These concepts require unimaginable amounts of power, I honestly do not know why you think we would not notice a power output equal to Jupiter's radiation in energy in our solar system. It would be like not noticing the sun on a bright and hot day.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo 'If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants.' - Sir Isaac Newton. "Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit." Ed Stewart. Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs. Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Sir Wearer of Hats.


#253    psyche101

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 07:46 AM

View PostFrank Merton, on 04 April 2013 - 07:37 AM, said:

All you do is rationalize the absence of any hint they are out there.  That is not persuasive.

I never heard of an anthropologist not making his or her presence known.

I agree, I am not sure why any anthropologist would not take an interest in a life form. Geologists find rocks fascinating, most people do not. An alien species would not have to only have one mindset. I do not see why such beings would not also have a sense of individuality and individual interests, and I do not understand why many take offence to the idea that we might be interesting to another species. I though only angsty emo teens were down on the world and thought we were the bottom of the barrel? Is it cool to be emo if one believes in ET perhaps?

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo 'If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants.' - Sir Isaac Newton. "Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit." Ed Stewart. Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs. Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Sir Wearer of Hats.


#254    Admiral Rhubarb

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 08:08 AM

View PostFrank Merton, on 04 April 2013 - 07:37 AM, said:

All you do is rationalize the absence of any hint they are out there.  That is not persuasive.

I never heard of an anthropologist not making his or her presence known.
Why? What would be the advantage scientifically and objectively from making their presence known? It would be neither scientific or objective. And yet again, "I never heard of Anthropogist not making their presence known" assumes that every race in the Universe would behave in the same way as Humans do on earth. I really think that's really a leap too far to draw those kind of conclusions.

Life is a hideous business, and from the background behind what we know of it peer daemoniacal hints of truth which make it sometimes a thousandfold more hideous.

H. P. Lovecraft.


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#255    Frank Merton

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 08:11 AM

That no society ever would be interested, when the only one we know about exhibits abundant interest, is the leap too far.  You are in the situation of having to deny something that is perfectly reasonable only to rationalize your position.  

You don't demonstrate that they are out there by doing nothing but find excuses for why we don't see them.





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