181 replies to this topic

[ninjadude]

AsteroidX, on 28 January 2013 - 12:29 AM, said:

Noones making you stay if you dont like what this country was founded on NinjaDude. Really. Aint throwing it out.

I'm not the one advocating insurrection against the legal government. That would be you. The constitution is not written in stone. GET IT?!! It can be amended.

[ninjadude]

Uncle Sam, on 28 January 2013 - 03:47 PM, said:

Human beings only have two ways to deal with one another: reason and force.

typical black and white thinking. And very immature.

[ninjadude]

Uncle Sam, on 28 January 2013 - 04:21 PM, said:

So you are saying we as citizens, so bow down to everything our government says?

such paranoia.

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An gun ensures that I am able to protect my rights,, and a gun ensures I will have the ability to fight back against my government if they turn against the people.

in the 21st century, in the USA, it does NO such thing. You are a fool to believe it does.

[ninjadude]

Hasina, on 28 January 2013 - 04:40 PM, said:

"The Second Amendment reflects traditional English attitudes

right, from the 18th century and even before that.

[ninjadude]

sam12six, on 28 January 2013 - 05:15 PM, said:

In a free society, you have the right to endanger yourself

Actually not so much. We have a great many laws preventing that. A society has a vested interest in the health and well being of its citizens.

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personal writings of several of the founding fathers state their belief that a population has the right (or even the responsibility) to pick up those arms and overthrow a government that becomes oppressive, I believe (even if it does not state so explicitly) that entire purpose of the amendment was to allow future generations the option they themselves took - the option to literally oust the oppressive government and establish a new one in its place.

The personal writings from the 18th century. They are anachronistic in this respect specifically. As for your belief, they had the chance to write that into law and did not.

[AsteroidX]

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I'm not the one advocating insurrection against the legal government. That would be you. The constitution is not written in stone. GET IT?!! It can be amended.

TBH your right to live in this country is not written in stone either. Like I said you wont care till it effects you. You are single sighted and as far as Im considered deserve everything you and your "grown" sons have coming  their way by continuing to line the pockets of Washington.

[sam12six]

ninjadude, on 29 January 2013 - 05:04 AM, said:

Actually not so much. We have a great many laws preventing that. A society has a vested interest in the health and well being of its citizens.

I did mention that the government started chipping away at its limits (and therefore curtailing rights) almost immediately...

A free society was what I was talking about, not what we have now.

ninjadude, on 29 January 2013 - 05:04 AM, said:

The personal writings from the 18th century. They are anachronistic in this respect specifically. As for your belief, they had the chance to write that into law and did not.

They did write it into law. They gave citizens the right to bear arms and organize into militias. Revolution has never occurred by an entire nation rising up and attacking the king's palace. Outside of coups within the government, they've always been a relatively small percentage of the population rising up and taking out the person(s) giving orders. Rise up and overthrow the tyrants isn't really spelled because by the time a significant portion of the population is willing to do so, they've already exhausted working within the system to their own (dis)satisfaction.

As I've said, the Constitution was drafted to limit the government. If the government followed it, not enough people would rise up to matter (there'll always be nutbags here and there). If the government doesn't follow it, what's written in it makes no difference.

They're not anachronistic, you just disagree with them. Corrupt governments have always existed and always will. One of the steps of governments in the past right before they did what we consider very bad things was disarming the populace. I can certainly accept someone not wanting to own a gun. I can't wrap my mind around the type person who says, "Since I don't want one, no one should have one."

ninjadude, on 29 January 2013 - 04:56 AM, said:

in the 21st century, in the USA, it does NO such thing. You are a fool to believe it does.

Sure it does. Granted if every disgruntled and disinfranchised citizen got together wearing a uniform and tried to take on the military head-to-head, they'd get summarily dusted. On the other hand, if it got to the point that cops and soldiers were afraid to walk out of their own homes because someone might introduce some lead to their diet, changes could certainly occur.

Any one person would be toast to fight against the government. Any one small group would be labeled a cult or terrorist cell (or the dreaded militia) and crushed like a bug. Small groups dotting the entire country? That would be a real threat (assuming they were free people by the one rule that was common throughout history for free people versus slaves - free people could carry weapons).

Edited by sam12six, 29 January 2013 - 05:37 AM.

[AsteroidX]

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The personal writings from the 18th century. They are anachronistic in this respect specifically. As for your belief, they had the chance to write that into law and did not.

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Definition of ANACHRONISM


1
: an error in chronology; especially : a chronological misplacing of persons, events, objects, or customs in regard to each other

2
: a person or a thing that is chronologically out of place; especially : one from a former age that is incongruous in the present

3
: the state or condition of being chronologically out of place
— anach·ro·nis·tic also ana·chron·ic adjective
— anach·ro·nis·ti·cal·ly adverb
— anach·ro·nous adjective
— anach·ro·nous·ly adverb

Which defintion of anachronism are you using so we can understand better what you are trying to say.

[Frank Merton]

Uncle Sam, on 28 January 2013 - 04:21 PM, said:

So you are saying we as citizens, so bow down to everything our government says? Put up no resistance if they decide to put us into hard labor camps? Decide rather we should have children or not? Give up our homes so they can build another military outpost? Some things you talking about from religion... is just mind boggling how stupid you can be. Do not resist an evil person, how naive can you be? Let me put it pretty simple, I will bow down to no man or woman. An gun ensures that I am able to protect my rights, a gun ensures I am able to protect my family, a gun ensures I will have a peace of mind knowing I can actually do something, and a gun ensures I will have the ability to fight back against my government if they turn against the people. An person who doesn't do something to stop criminals is just as bad as criminals who actively seek out another person to do harm or infringe upon their rights.

If you don't want a gun, you don't have to get one. But to tell me I should change my ways, my life, to get rid of the one thing I know can protect all of the things I treasure is selfish of you. I don't tell you how to live your life, you should tell me how to run mine either.

It is hard to know how to respond to such strong feelings.  I will try but no doubt will not succeed.

We all must submit all the time.  We must submit to physics (I don't have the freedom to fly at will or take an afternoon stroll on the moon).  We must submit to being governed (otherwise none of us would be safe anywhere, driving a car would be suicide, we wouldn't even be able to listen to the radio without competing broadcasters interrupting our station's frequency).  Further, we must submit to our parents and other elders, to our employer, to customers if we have a business, to the owners of property when we are on it, and even to strangers walking down the street (we are polite and let them pass and they let us pass).

There are some who abuse this, and we have institutions that put them in jail.  This is a job we are better off by far letting the state handle than taking into our own hands.

The words I quoted from Jesus are common to many religions; certainly it is the same idea that Gandhi and Martin Luther King and the Buddha taught.  Don't resist evil.  Bend with it.  Resisting evil tends to make it worse.  We may have visions of defeating the evildoer, but it is more likely that this is just wishful thinking and the reality will be the opposite.

Now a limited amount of self-defense, so long as it is not aggressive, is understood, so one can indeed ward off blows, but to hurt the other, even in self-defense, in the end does far more harm to you.  We call the harm negative merit or negative karma -- but it isn't something magical, but part of the nature of things.  When you resist you change the nature of your being, making killing slightly easier and compassion just slightly more difficult for you.

As far as laws regarding guns go, I have a somewhat different view.  I would discourage people from having them, but I don't think private moral views should inform public law.  I would also discourage abortions, but oppose laws against them, and I think cigarettes are harmful and gambling is stupid, but these are my private views and others should be given the maximum of freedom to choose for themselves.  Laws should be designed in accordance with public objectives, not private morals.

[Yamato]

ninjadude, on 29 January 2013 - 04:56 AM, said:

such paranoia.

in the 21st century, in the USA, it does NO such thing. You are a fool to believe it does.

Such insults.   A pistol pointed at the right head can change the world.  You're the fool to believe it can't.

[AsteroidX]

Well said Frank and truly as an American we strive to be there in a place where the state is taking care of itself and corruption is gotten rid of by those that govern. But it is the opposite today in America. The corrupted rule over us and we are but pawns for them to brainwash and enslave.

Truly we want to change but nonviolent may not be the way. We are a patient people in America but we are vocal. We speak and yell and today we are not heard. it is as if our leaders are deaf.

we do not want to be the scourge of the world because our economy is run on a military industrial machine maintained by foreign wars. That is not the legacy WE THE PEOPLE want to leave the world nor our own children.

My apologies but how we ultimately resolve this issue is going to have to be an American solution. Your input is appreciated as only those with the patience to listen through our anger and truly take the time to understand what the PEOPLE of American want to be remembered as will ever understand.

[Yamato]

The federal government is a terrible arbiter of the federal government.   That's why we have inherent protections built into our rule of law like the 2nd Amendment.

If certain Americans don't like the 2nd Amendment they should use their freedom of mobility while they still have it and move somewhere where they're not so disturbed or offended by the rights they're guaranteed in the US.  And if they're interested in staying after all, they should take political action in their own state to begin the arduous process of ratifying a repeal from at least 75% of the 50 States.   Liberals know they don't have a miserable chance in hell of repealing the 2nd so they invent a lot of poisonous rhetoric and sheer fantasy like "if the majority wants to get rid of the 2nd Amendment, they'll get rid of it".  Liberals with their noses so high in the air they can't even see straight need to understand that just because something is old doesn't mean it's no good.

[AsteroidX]

Im not even certain Liberals are fully on board this gobernment train wreck. Not even the takers (Welfare,Foodstampers).

Todays daytime readiness drill occured in Houston without warning to the local population it landed on and again shots(blanks) were used. There getting serious. What do we do since they wont tell us what they are doing. But IMO this is rapid response force to domestic uprising drills, AKA zombie apocalypse drilling. I wonder if the guy that says he loves the idea works for the Goberment I cant believe him attributing this type of action to protecting children. Thats just asinine.

[Frank Merton]

AsteroidX, on 29 January 2013 - 10:46 AM, said:

But it is the opposite today in America. The corrupted rule over us and we are but pawns for them to brainwash and enslave.

What makes someone "corrupted?"  The plain fact is that everyone is corrupt.  We certainly have plenty of corruption in Vietnam too -- its all over the newspapers all the time, so it isn't even something the government tries to deny.  That doesn't mean one has to change the government; corruption is like other crimes -- one constantly struggles against it but one knows in the long run for every weed you pull another will grow in its place.

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Truly we want to change but nonviolent may not be the way. We are a patient people in America but we are vocal. We speak and yell and today we are not heard. it is as if our leaders are deaf.

Of course leaders seem deaf: they are being shouted at by hundreds all the time, everyone with their own agenda, many of which are selfish.  Patience and non-judgementalism goes along with non-violence.  Attribute the best motives to the leaders and sometimes they will live up to them.

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we do not want to be the scourge of the world because our economy is run on a military industrial machine maintained by foreign wars. That is not the legacy WE THE PEOPLE want to leave the world nor our own children.

I would hope not, and if I were to say what runs the US I would not say some mythical military industrial machine but instead the legal profession.  America is lawyer-bound by legal issues and proceduralism and gazillions of lawyers using this to be wealthy.

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My apologies but how we ultimately resolve this issue is going to have to be an American solution. Your input is appreciated as only those with the patience to listen through our anger and truly take the time to understand what the PEOPLE of American want to be remembered as will ever understand.

I think outside views can be helpful; those inside sometimes lack objectivity.  One thing to me is for sure -- there is not going to be any sort of uprising in the US for a long, long time.  Just forget about it.

Edited by Frank Merton, 29 January 2013 - 11:30 AM.

[AsteroidX]

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mythical military industrial machin

This is not a myth but the top money making industry for the elite you refer too. Are we bad for wanting to stamp out the massive corruption that is spreading itself to other countries and making them suffer bringing hatred to us as a people. Using this same military industry.

Which legacy you would like us to leave the world. Because we can all hide in our homes for the next 200 years and let the rest of the world pay for our lack of a backbone to stand up to the injustices done by our government. Or we can force (nonviolently or through revolution change) and try and leave a legacy that the world will look back upon and say you know those American people were not so bad after all. Together we can make a change for the better and be a world leader in a positive way. Not what we are doing today.

Edited by AsteroidX, 29 January 2013 - 11:42 AM.